Talk:1992 PBA All-Filipino Conference finals

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Requested move 1 March 2024[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. – robertsky (talk) 13:18, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

– "Finals" is not part of a proper name in these. The phrase "Filipino Conference finals" is not very common in sources, but is about as often lowercase as capped, so per MOS:CAPS and WP:NCCAPS, we should use lowercase in WP style. Dicklyon (talk) 09:41, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Survey[edit]

  • Neutral - I'm content with either version. GoodDay (talk) 00:46, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support—I see that research shows that "Conference" is generally treated as part of the proper name; so "finals" should be the only item downcased. Tony (talk) 05:12, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: To the extent that sources have been located, they have seemed to support the proposed renaming (note that mixed usage indicates to use lowercase, and headlines in title case don't count). When directly relevant independent reliable sources are hard to find, we should follow our own MoS as best we can, and that is WP:SENTENCECASE. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 22:36, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Per WP:NCCAPS and MOS:CAPS - mixed usage in sources does not support capping final|s. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:31, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Data[edit]

n-grams aren't too helplful here, as "Filipino C/conference" shows up, but nothing with more context is common enough to count. The results look mixed, but most of those uses are not about PBA conferences. Searching for books that are about PBA conferences, I only find capitalization of "Conference": [1], [2], [3].

Also nothing useful at All-Filipino n-grams.

Adding "Finals" to the search, I don't find any books. But it's very mixed in news, mostly about the more modern volleyball conferences, as detailed by Howard the Duck [with my comments] in the discussion below.

Of the cited refs, I find only one that includes the whole title phrase (but with PBA spelled out), and it uses lowercase finals.

Anyone else got data? Dicklyon (talk) 06:16, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion[edit]

Wouldn't "Year PBA All-Filipino conference finals" be the proposed style? GoodDay (talk) 18:09, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My reading is that All-Filipino Conference is the proper name of the conference (like in Eastern Conference finals and Western Conference finals in various leagues that you're more familiar with). I haven't looked deeply into how supported that is, but I didn't see a reason to challenge it. Dicklyon (talk) 12:02, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In the PBA, the term "Conference" means "Cup" (like the current PBA Philippine Cup, among others). The PBA Fiesta Conference, defunct since 2010, is the last time the term "Conference" was used. Dieter Lloyd Wexler 16:48, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I see they use it in volleyball still, e.g. here, but that's not so relevant to the PBA. What's your take on consistent capitalization in sources? Dicklyon (talk) 20:40, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Premier Volleyball League was organized by former PBA executives, who then mimicked how the PBA conferences were named before 1990 (Open Conference, Reinforced Conference, All-Filipino Conference, and Invitational Championship), even down to the tournament formats (no playoff brackets, for example until recently because apparently the most popular team was eliminated in the 2022 Premier Volleyball League Reinforced Conference#Semifinals). In 1990, the PBA renamed the conferences to "All-Filipino Conference", then Commissioner's Cup and Governors' Cup. In 2004, the PBA reduced the number of conferences per season to two, then renamed the All-Filipino Conference to the "Philippine Cup", then the other conference being named as the "Fiesta Conference". In 2010, they brought back the 1990 names and number of conferences, but keeping the "Philippine Cup" name, so now all 3 conferences end in "Cup". The conference names were always capitalized, and frankly even the Finals stage is (see this, this, and this, but not this), but if we're going to capitalize NBA "Eastern Conference finals" that way, we should probably capitalize "PBA All-Filipino Conference finals" this way, too. Howard the Duck (talk) 00:39, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So do you agree with my proposal? Dicklyon (talk) 12:01, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Most sources still capitalize "Finals", so no. Howard the Duck (talk) 18:43, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Where are you finding these sources? Mostly it's just recent web pages copying Wikipedia. For "All-Filipino Conference" there are more, capped thus, but with "Finals" hardly any, especially from the basketball era. And the volleyball ones are not consistently done that way, either, e.g. "All-Filipino finals", best-of-three finals of the 2023 PVL 2nd All-Filipino Conference, All-Filipino Conference finals, it's hard to imagine it passing the "consistently capitalized" criterion in MOS:CAPS. Dicklyon (talk) 20:57, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If the "<Type> Conference" and "Finals" comes together, the word "Finals" is almost always capitalized, unless it is from Rappler, one of the sources both you and I have listed. If it's the word "Conference" or "Cup" isn't there, primarily for "All-Filipino", WP:RS may opt not to capitalize "finals" as it's not a part of a proper name any longer, like your example "All-Filipino finals". The term "All-Filipino" is no longer being used primarily in basketball, being replaced by the "Philippine Cup" in 2004.
In volleyball, it's much variable:
This is volleyball and we are in the internet era where space isn't a premium. There's even a variance between "All-Filipino" and "All Filipino" (without a hyphen). For basketball, in the old days of newspapers, this may not be the case. Howard the Duck (talk) 21:31, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not seeing that. E.g. these stats show very mixed usage in "<type> Conference F/finals", but <type> hardly ever matches any of the PBA conferences. Can you give at least some examples of where you're seeing "almost always capitalized"? For the volleyball examples, it's clearly not consistently capped in sources. Dicklyon (talk) 23:10, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Those stats should not be taken in isolation; each usage is dependent on context. For example, a sentence could have read "PBA's all-Filipino conference", then another goes "PBA All-Filipino Conference", both found in the same reference, and you can say both are right.
If we'd search for "All-Filipino Conference/conference", these came up empty (LOL; I also added non-hyphenated variants). I have no dog in the fight re: NBA and NHL usage, but the way it is presented on TV, it's in Title Case, or on ALL CAPS. WP:RS again may differ on context: for example "Western Conference Finals" is correct, but simply "NBA conference finals" is also correct.
Now, for these specific articles, we'd rely on Google Newspaper archives of Manila Standard from the late 1980s until the early 1990s. One thing I noticed is that they'd always refer to these as "Philippine Basketball Association's All-Filipino conference" here, here, and here, except for this one "Philippine Basketball Association all-Filipino conference" here (not possessive, "all-Filipino" instead of "All-Filipino". It's the only reference about this available online, but I'd imagine other newspapers may have other naming conventions. Howard the Duck (talk) 00:08, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This calls it "Philippine Basketball Association All-Filipino Conference finals" ("Conference" capitalized, "finals" not). I'm too lazy to go through every reference in each other article, but the Manila Standard was not consistent on whether "conference" is capitalized or not, or if "finals" is even on the prose, substituting terms such as "championship series", for example. Maybe they opted for more colorful language.
I'd be interested on finals from conferences that ended in the word "Cup". Would those be "All-Filipino Cup finals", "All-Filipino Cup Finals", "all-Filipino Cup finals", "All Filipino Cup finals", "all Filipino Cup finals" or whatever else? All of these are a series of articles and ought to have consistent naming. Howard the Duck (talk) 00:26, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Might help, if you would place support, oppose or neutral in the (above) "survey" sub-section. GoodDay (talk) 00:31, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm actually checking on actual WP:RS that I can find. I would have opposed this, but of course such !votes should be based on something, and not on just hunches. Checking on what WP:RS is available, I would have been neutral as the RS that we have is not consistent. However, how we should name these series of articles should be universally consistent. With that, I'd probably still oppose until Dicklyon is successful in moving similar US sports leagues articles. If he's successful, I'd even say he can unilaterally move all of the articles in Category:Philippine Basketball Association Finals to whatever the new naming convention for US sports is. Otherwise, I'd keep the status quo. Howard the Duck (talk) 00:39, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not asking what your position is. Just wondering, why you haven't stated it in the (above) "survey" sub-section. GoodDay (talk) 00:43, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
At this point I dunno how I should !vote, and I'd like to keep an open mind on this and can be convinced otherwise. I'd want to discuss without boxing my position to a !vote. 00:45, 7 March 2024 (UTC) Howard the Duck (talk) 00:45, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Very well. Just wasn't sure if you were aware of the "survey" bit. GoodDay (talk) 00:47, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Another reason is I'm using MediaWiki's Talk pages project function and it's not very handy for bulleted votes (LOL), and I'm lazy like that. But it's mostly per my reasoning above. Howard the Duck (talk) 00:57, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Following up on this discussion, with the equivalence of "Conference" and "Cup" in the PBA, I'm also doing the "PBA * Cup Finals" case fixings. I've got a few hundred edits into that already, but it will be a while before I get it all consistent; the large number of over-capped redirects used in infoboxes makes it slower than it should be. Feel free to help, or point out anything you see that I missed. Dicklyon (talk) 22:21, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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