Talk:Chicken or the egg

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I think that finding in 2010 was incorrectly worded[edit]

Simplest explanation: it can be that "ovocleidin-17" protein was part of egg from "bird that was not a chicken" (or from "proto chicken") but "ovocleidin-17" has been produced after mutation.

We can only speculate in either direction (mutation or not).

So, "Egg came first" is not defeated by "ovocleidin-17" arguments.

"ovocleidin-17" can simplify what we understand as "chicken". D1gggg (talk) 18:01, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

"The chicken is only an egg's way of making another egg"[edit]

Apparently it was expressed in Life and Habit, ch. 8 (1877) w:wikiquote:Samuel Butler (novelist)

I have troubles to find exact quote from Richard Dawkins bibliography or w:wikiquote:Richard Dawkins

For example: "This is of course the old 'a chicken is just an egg's way to breed a new egg' line of thinking, dressed up in fancy hi-tech. It is equally possible to give an account of genetics and evolution from the point of view of the organism ..." D1gggg (talk) 13:43, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

recent edits by Deacon Vorbis[edit]

[1]

  • explanation from Sorensen is removed
  • incorrect references about Aristotle by François Fénelon
  • illustrations to "Which came first: the chicken or the egg? The egg – laid by a bird that was not a chicken" just removed

I'm not able to get explanation from @Deacon Vorbis: at their user pages... D1gggg (talk) 13:47, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

They're not my edits; they're yours, that have been reverted. I've already explained: there's a lot of bad markup (colored boxes around words, etc), poor English, removal of content that shouldn't be removed, and a little bit of stuff that looks like WP:OR. --Deacon Vorbis (talk) 13:51, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
WP:LISTEN to WP:BURDEN
I explained all the additions and all the removals.
It is your time to explain your deletion of correct statements and your addition of incorrect claims, wrong quotations and such. D1gggg (talk) 13:55, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
@Deacon Vorbis: why you are re-adding wrong quotation about Aristotle repeatedly? [2] [3]
quotation was discussed 2 years ago D1gggg (talk) 14:04, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Improving or trashing this article[edit]

Hmm... let's think about what to do here. My proposal is that we look for articles in the popular press that talk about this and start gathering good sources. Let's not include self-published sources unless we think it's worth directly attributing them (e.g. NdT's twitter quote).

jps (talk) 15:41, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

We can present them separately as "Recent discussion in public" or "in Media"
about NdT: even if evolutionary biology is not his main specialization, but many people would listen to he says.
This is also about time and causality - this will affect very wide audience. D1gggg (talk) 15:59, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Notes about fertilization and "chicken egg"[edit]

@9SGjOSfyHJaQVsEmy9NS: [4]

@Agricolae: [5]

@Deacon Vorbis: [6]

I'm quite sure that p. 98. ISBN 0-9719162-0-9 says "semantic ambiguities" and mentions variants of "chicken egg" shortly after.

First video on youtube is better than article after all removals of correct statements. D1gggg (talk) 15:55, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

This is not a good article, but there is a right way and a wrong way to go about improving it. The wrong way is to keep making the same changes after objections have been raised. You have already violated WP:3RR, and could have your editing privileges suspended right now - that is how wrong the way you are going about this is, but talking about it here is a good step.
As to your specific removals, it would be better to replace or improve material you find insufficiently supported, rather than remove it. There has been a long body of writing on the problem, not only in the literal sense but in the broader sense of the first-cause problem, and this article is not improved by removing most historical mention of this body of discussion, but it does need to be cited to reliable sources and not be original research (i.e. we shouldn't cite Aristotle and the Hebrew Bible, we should cite modern authors discussing the chicken and egg question have said about Aristotle and the Hebrew Bible.
As to your additions, the Sorensen material is really no different than the statement that was already in the article, he is not considered a noteworthy expert, and his contribution is not considered a groundbreaking paradigm shift or the 'go-to' formulation of his answer, so he does not merit his own section. It would be better were it not WP:PRIMARY, if we had another philosopher or biologist citing and summarizing it to indicate that someone other than you thinks it has merit, but it is better than the web citations that we had cited for similar arguments (but it absolutely needs to be properly cited, not made to look like a book). Your 'semantics' section is practically opaque and clearly represents your own work, so it has no place in the article. Such a section is only justified if someone has published 'the semantics of the chicken and egg problem', and then it should be in narrative summary format, not a list. Just finding the words 'semantic ambiguities' in a source does not open the door to putting your own analysis in (and again, your text made no sense, so it is a problem regardless). Agricolae (talk) 16:19, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
I don't see wisdom about "chicken egg is not ambiguous" which can be the only reason to remove correct statements. D1gggg (talk) 16:31, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
Watch youtube video.
I don't own https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCC552Sd-3nyi_tk2BudLUzA with 7 millions subscribers. D1gggg (talk) 16:35, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
"After all, 'chicken' is vague." doi:10.1093/mind/101.403.541
Do you think I'm Roy A. Sorensen?
@Agricolae: WP:LISTEN what could possibly be opaque here? Or what is my "own analysis" above? D1gggg (talk) 16:58, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not YouTube, and a video there, no matter how many subscribers the poster has, should not be the basis for editorial decisions here - a YouTube contributor can say whatever they want, but a Wikipedia editor must follow rules. These editorial decisions are based on a range of factors, and material that is perfectly true, presenting a perspective the inclusion of which would improve an article, may still be removed if it is insufficiently sourced or poorly written: removal of the semantic ambiguity section does not mean there are not semantic ambiguities, just that a discussion of them needs to derive from reliable sources and be clearly expressed, neither of which was the case here. As to what is opaque, the whole section made no sense - "is a typical false dilemma: option of mutants is omitted, option of multiple species (breeds, e.t.c.) is omitted"? I have to work way to hard to figure out what concept that is supposed to be conveying, and the same is true of each of the others. And no, I don't think you are Sorensen, but I do think you lack sufficient sourcing to describe these semantic ambiguities. That Sorensen says 'chicken is ambiguous' is insufficient justification to have a section in which you, as an editor, identify all of the different ways in which 'chicken' and 'egg' might be ambiguous - that is Original Research. Agricolae (talk) 17:12, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
100% of academic references are added by me.
It is impossible to win WP:BUREAUCRACY when all of your edits are WP:OR or WP:COPYVIO.
I don't see wisdom about "chicken is not ambiguous". We have academic paper claiming opposite.
I regret my time on improving this article. D1gggg (talk) 17:52, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
Addressing these in order:
This is not about you. The fact that you are adding academic references at one place does not mean you are free to put whatever you want somewhere else.
You can 'win' by making edits that are not WP:OR or COPYVIO - adding content that is well written in your own words and derived from reliable sources.
'Chicken is not ambiguous' is your own strawman - this content dispute is not about ambiguity, but how you have gone about addressing the ambiguity.
It may well be the case that your time was not well spent, but that has as much to do with the way you went about it. If you have taken away a better understanding of how the process works, then it was not totally wasted. Agricolae (talk) 18:13, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
@Agricolae: WP:LISTEN: my question was about "After all, 'chicken' is vague." and your answer is not about this... But about "chicken or egg" description.
Strange. D1gggg (talk) 18:26, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
Rather than telling me to LISTEN, how about you thinking out what you want to say and expressing it in a clear complete-sentence/paragraph format rather than poorly-written bullet points. I can't even figure out what distinction you are trying to draw between 'chicken is vague' and '"chicken or egg" description', so it is hardly strange that I have not addressed correctly what you failed to communicate clearly.
All this aside, what you are trying to change in the article is certainly disputed, so you need to stop forcing the issue. You now need to propose your change here, on the Talk page, and garner consensus. Do we need a separate section about ambiguities? What is the best way to convey this information? (Wikipedia style usually avoids sections that consists entirely of a bullet-pointed list). These are valid questions that should be discussed here rather than repeatedly forcing it into the article without first garnering consensus. Agricolae (talk) 18:44, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

@Agricolae: I said "chicken egg" in the first message. Do you object it?

@Agricolae: WP:LISTEN I'm "forcing" answer from you about "chicken egg", not more, not less. D1gggg (talk) 18:50, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

You are again failing to make yourself clear. I have no clue what you want a response to. Agricolae (talk) 18:57, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
Should we make a statement about "chicken egg is ambiguous" at this page if it is crucial to further explanation?
Why it can't be a separate paragraph or section? D1gggg (talk) 19:03, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
But is it crucial, or is it incidental? Do you have a source that says the ambiguity issue is crucial to the question? As I mentioned elsewhere, I am not sure that answering the question is even crucial to this article, as the expression 'chicken and egg' is usually used metaphorically and not in its literal sense. What this article really needs is this context, not a granular analysis of the 'right answer'. As to having a separate section, it elevates this particular issue, the ambiguity issue, to a level of importance that is perhaps WP:UNDUE. Does the inherent ambiguity in the simple phrase prevent its understanding? More importantly, has the discussion of the chicken and egg conundrum in the scholarly literature and popular press give such focus to the ambiguity that it merits such precedence in weight? In my opinion, it is at best a sub-issue with regard to the quest for a literal answer, not meriting the level of prominence you are giving it. Agricolae (talk) 19:27, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
"used metaphorically and not in its literal sense" - according to Agricolae.
Both are used.
We need more words to explain literal answer.
That is it.
I wish Wikipedia to have would have good articles like Mandu_(food)#Names_and_etymology
And not WP:OVERLINKed mess about crucialsource ambiguitysource D1gggg (talk) 19:37, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
If the ambiguity issue is being raised as 'words to explain literal answer' then why is it its own section? If 'both are used', why does this article only discuss the literal usage, the 'right answer'? The problem with wanting a good article is that your opinion of what would make this article 'good' is not the same as others'. You seem to think that the ultimate goal of this article should be to answer the question. I would suggest that the goal should be to explain the conundrum, including historical context and its general usage. To explain it solely as a quest for the literal answer and the inherent problems in providing this answer is like describing the expression of 'can't see the forest for the trees' by explaining the distribution of arboreal specimens in woodlands, which may be perfectly accurate while entirely missing the point. Yes people publish and the press reports on the 'literal' answer but only because of the broader metaphorical usage, and this article shouldn't let the former dominate over the latter. (And please use complete sentences and paragraphs here - expressing yourself through bullet-point phrases (without the bullets) does you no favors in terms of clear communication.) Agricolae (talk) 20:01, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

@Agricolae: "why does this article only discuss the literal usage, the 'right answer'?" WP:LISTEN, WP:FIXIT!

I can WP:ENJOY my life after adding 100% of academic references about "literal answer". D1gggg (talk) 20:05, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

I am glad you can enjoy your life, but the article is not improved by the skewed focus it has been given. I tried to FIXIT by removing poorly formatted, badly expressed, undue weight material, but you reverted again in spite of having been warned. So be it, what will come will come. Agricolae (talk) 20:18, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
I WP:VOLUNTEER to expand "literal usage" because even YouTube is better.
"undue weight material" I don't think any reasonable person should support this after "used metaphorically and not in its literal sense".
But yes "metaphorical usage" needs academic references and WP:COMPETENT editor who can WP:FIXIT. D1gggg (talk) 20:27, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Separate article about Plutarch and Aristotle[edit]

This metaphorical question is not about literal question about "eggs" and "chickens".

I suggested to have Potential of thought to exist and actualization of thought during this discussion

We have small consensus to have separate articles.

I don't see how mixing them can be useful or meaningful at least not right now. D1gggg (talk) 19:30, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Yet again, no clue what you are trying to say. Agricolae (talk) 19:43, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

latest edit by Agricolae[edit]

[7]

I will give them second chance to WP:WRITE about "metaphorical usage" and not to remove well WP:SOURCED details about "literal explanation".

"an egg laid by chicken (trivial and "chicken" is always first in this case)":

  1. not explained after removals
  2. factually correct

I consider edit as worthless to Wikipedia INCOMPETENT WP:NINJA D1gggg (talk) 16:43, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

This is insane: "metaphorical usage" has 0 academic references and this person wants to bring rest of the article to "the same level" of details?.. Hell no. D1gggg (talk) 16:53, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Why I removed that text: 1) even after removing the bullet points, it is still a list, while sentences and paragraphs are the preferred format for Wikipedia articles; 2) it was devoid of context, with no explanation of what the list represents except as supplied by the subheading, which may work for a PowerPoint presentation but not for an encyclopedia article; 3) the individual ambiguities are presented in such abbreviated prose that they are unclear - complete, well-formed sentences that explain the concept are essential; 4) it is given way too much priority in the article - when explaining the concept of chicken and egg, the first thing that should be highlighted past the lead is certainly not the ambiguities of individual words in the phrase; 5) it was poorly cited, for example, giving a citation for the word chicken, but not for the explanation of the claimed ambiguity, a style giving it 6) at least the appearance of original research/the editor's own opinion; 7) it was done in the face of repeated reversion, without consensus on the Talk page. When something has been this contentious, when its insertion has been reversed multiple times, it needs to be worked out on the Talk page first, and accusations of insanity and incompetence don't help. Agricolae (talk) 17:38, 10 November 2017 (UTC)