Talk:Hungary

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Former good article nomineeHungary was a Geography and places good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
On this day... Article milestones
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December 9, 2007Good article nomineeNot listed
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On this day... Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on April 13, 2004, March 15, 2011, October 23, 2011, March 15, 2012, and October 23, 2016.
Current status: Former good article nominee

Contradictory?[edit]

Under "Demographics" the number of Roma is given as 300,000. In the next line as a result of the census their number is given as 609,000. Which figure is correct? Or how is the difference explained?

Also: to my knowledge not all gipsies in Hungary are Roma. They are just the largest group. Hence the term "Roma" is regarded as an imposition by the smaller gipsy groups.

== Demography ==

=== Urbanization ===
 {{Main|List of cities and towns of Hungary}}
 {{Largest cities of Hungary}}
 {{copied |from =www.en.wikipedia/List of cities and towns of Hungary}}
 [[File:Hungary local administration.png|thumb|350px|Towns and villages in Hungary]]
[[Hungary]] has 3,152 localities as of July 15, 2013. 346 towns (Hungarian term: ''város'', plural: ''városok''; the terminology doesn't distinguish between [[city|cities]] and [[town]]s – the term town is used in official translations) and 2,806 villages (Hungarian: ''község'', plural: ''községek''). The number of towns can change, since villages can be elevated to town status by act of the President. The capital Budapest has a special status and is not included in any county while 23 of the towns are so-called urban counties (''megyei jogú város'' – town with county rights). All county seats except Budapest are urban counties.
Four of the cities ([[Budapest]], [[Miskolc]], [[Győr]], and [[Pécs]]) have agglomerations, and the Hungarian Statistical Office distinguishes seventeen other areas in earlier stages of agglomeration development.<ref>http://portal.ksh.hu/portal/page?_pageid=37,412178&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL#sett</ref>
The largest city is the capital, Budapest, the smallest town is [[Pálháza]] with 1038 inhabitants (2010). The largest village is [[Solymár]] (population: 10,123 as of 2010) There are more than 100 villages with fewer than 100 inhabitants while the smallest villages have fewer than 20 inhabitants.
{{reflist talk}}

Puzzled[edit]

What does this mean? "The vast majority of the seventeen and nineteen thousand Ottoman soldiers in service in the Ottoman fortresses in the territory of Hungary were Orthodox and Muslim Balkan Slavs rather than ethnic Turkish people." Maybe "seventeen TO nineteen"?

I would fix it if I knew what was intended, but I'm unsure. The reference is to a book, so I can't check it. Dgndenver (talk) 07:03, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It would be ok to change it to "thousands". The precise number doesn't add much value. Nemo 07:56, 8 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ottoman Hungary[edit]

Hi @Szirtyu, are you able to read Hungarian sources?

What is your opinion? @Norden1990 @Borsoka @Gyalu22

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hungary&diff=prev&oldid=1193225987

I think the lead is just a short summarize of the events. Hungarian historiography holds the well known view "150 years Ottoman occupation" term [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6](which we know is more or less number), all of them starts from 1541, when Buda was occupied and Hungary was split in three.

[7]"With the capture of Buda in 1541, Ottoman rule began in the central part of Hungary. But this rule was at first limited to the military occupation of a few fortified places. It took many years for the Turks to build up their public administration, the institutions that set the framework for their settlement here"

"Central part' is a general broad term, this is a lead, the sub article has all details and maps: Ottoman Hungary. Belgrade was occupied in 1521, after Mohacs, some southern areas was occupied in Syrmia, but that are just border regions and Hungary was not occupied, but Hungary was destroyed and occupied by the date of 1541 by the siege of Buda, and Buda was recaptured in 1686, and after the second battle of Mohacs in 1687, and finally by the Treaty of Karlowitz Hungary was mostly recaptured and restored, only the Temes region remained udner Ottoman control until 1718 by the Treaty of Passarowitz. Why should we care border areas in the lead? For example Belgrade was occupied by the Habsburgs 3 times just in 1700s. Should we talk about more "Ottoman Hungary" because of Belgrade? Because of a border area?

Should we say A country occupied B country or B country occupied A country just because the border regions always changed? OrionNimrod (talk) 19:37, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

the Banat of Temeswar, Belgrade and Syrmia were occupied by the Ottomans until the Treaty of Passarowitz in 1718. Furthermore, after the Treaty of Karlowitz, it took time for some of the territories ceded to the Habsburgs under this treaty to actually be transferred from Ottoman to Habsburg rule. Whilst Buda was ruled between 1541 and 1699, it’s appropriate to specify the years 1526 and 1718 as the sentence describes the period during which the Kingdom was partially occupied. the way it was written, specifying only the period during which the central part was occupied could have been misinterpreted as meaning only the central part was occupied. Szirtyu (talk) 00:31, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @Szirtyu, why do you want to overwrite and supervise the Hungarian historiography? The lead is a summarize of the events. We should emphasize those things short which are emphasized in the Hungarian historiography. The siege of Belgrade in 1521 and the 1718 treaty is not emphasized at all. But everybody can read those information if somebody see the details below or in the sub articles.
Modern school books from the Hungarian national curriculum
All emphaize that Ottoman Hungary formed in 1541 when Hungary was split in three (morover the first Ottoman elayet established at that time in Hungary) and Hungarian sources emphasize the Ottomans recognized the loss of Ottoman Hungary in 1699.
https://www.tankonyvkatalogus.hu/pdf/OH-TOR06TB__teljes.pdf
page 59
"The fall of Buda and the splitting of the country into three parts"
"After the death of János Szapolyai, Ferdinand wanted to put an end to the division of the country. He tried to occupy all of Hungary with an army. The Turks did not remain idle either. Sultan Suleiman's army soon he reached Buda. In 1541, the Turks took Buda Castle by trick. However, it was not enough to occupy the entire country their strength. Thus, only the central area was annexed to the Ottoman Empire. Hungary was divided into three parts: 1. The western and northern parts were the Kingdom of Hungary (royal Hungary). Its rulers came from the Habsburg family, its center It was Bratislava. 2. The sultan donated the eastern part to the son of János Szapolyai, the infant János Zsigmond. Later, this area was called the Principality of Transylvania. 3. In the area between the two, the Turks were the master: this part was called subjugation."
Ottoman occupation chapter:
page 88: "Turkish rule: In 1541, Buda was taken by the Turks."
https://www.tankonyvkatalogus.hu/pdf/OH-TOR06TA__teljes.pdf
page 67:
"After the capture of Buda, the country was divided into three parts. The central areas of the country came under the authority of the Ottoman (Turkish) Empire, where the so-called subjugation (Ottoman Hungary) developed. The western and northern half of the country was connected to the countries of the Habsburgs, the territory of the Kingdom of Hungary remained under the rule of Ferdinand Habsburg and his successors they ruled. The sultan donated the eastern half of the country to his son Szapolyai, and the Principality of Transylvania was created from this."
"After the loss of Buda in 1541, the borders of the individual parts of the country were formed along a new castle line."
page 80:
"The liberation of Hungary and the recapture of Buda took place at the end of the 17th century after nearly 150 years of Turkish subjugation."
page 81:
"The war did not end with the recapture of Buda. The imperial armies pushed the Turks out of Hungary relatively quickly and occupied Transylvania as well. Later, however, in the west, the French again started a war against the Habsburgs, so significant forces had to be withdrawn from the Turkish battlefield. The advance was stalled for a few years, and the Turks were even able to regain smaller areas. Finally, the decade and a half war was concluded by the Peace of Karlóc in 1699, as a result of which even the Turks now recognized: Hungary was liberated. The Ottoman Empire was the only one able to keep Temesköz in the south-eastern part of the country, but nearly twenty years later the Turks were pushed out from there as well"
https://www.tankonyvkatalogus.hu/pdf/FI-504010601_1__teljes.pdf
page 104:
"The Peace of Karlóc, signed in 1699, made the dream of generations come true: a large part of Hungary was freed from the Turkish rule that had lasted for more than one hundred and fifty years. The Ottoman Empire was the only one able to keep Temesköz in the southern part of the country."
https://www.tankonyvkatalogus.hu/pdf/OH-TOR10TA__teljes.pdf
page 40:
"In 1541, Ferdinand sent a strong army to capture Buda. Fráter György, who was in a difficult situation, turned to the Turks for help, although it is true that Sülejmán also decided on the new campaign. The siege failed and the arriving Ottoman force encamped below Buda. After a few days, the sultan invited the Szapolyai followers to visit, and during the hospitality, his troops captured the capital of the country by trickery in 1541. August 29. The Sultan spared the lives of Zsigmond János and Izabella Jagielló, who were captured. He handed over the administration of the part of the country east of the Tisza to them, and recognized the infant king as his vassal. uda, however, remained in the hands of the Turks. Thus, with the formation of the occupied territory along the Danube (Hódoltság (Ottoman Hungary)), the country was divided into three parts."
page 59:
"The decisive defeat of the Ottomans occurred in the Battle of Zenta (1697), where the Sultan's army crossing the Tisza was defeated by the Emperor Jenő of Savoy. was destroyed by After a long negotiation, the two parties concluded a peace in 1699 (Peace of Karlóca), the Turks recognized the loss of the Hódoltság (Ottoman Hungary), the territory of the country - with the exception of Temesköz - was finally liberated."
https://www.tankonyvkatalogus.hu/pdf/OH-TOR10TB__teljes.pdf
page 46:
"Sülejmán, however, saw that the time had come to occupy Buda, and his soldiers occupied the castle on August 29, 1541. He dragged Bálint Török with him and gave Isabella and the infant king the part of the country east of the Tisza. Hungary was divided into three parts."
"In 1526, the Sultan occupied Buda, but withdrew from the city. Between 1528 and 1540, the Sultan supported János Szapolyai because it was cheaper for him to maintain a fiefdom than to invade. Between 1529 and 1540, the sultan launched campaigns against the Habsburgs alongside Szapolyai. They intervene in the internal strife of the defeated country. After the death of Szapolyai, the sultan occupies Buda, because he is not sure that the guardians of the infant king are able to keep the fiefdom. 1541: Capture of Buda and the central area of the country."
page 67:
"However, the Habsburg Empire was able to withstand the two-front war. The talented general, Jenő of Savoy, again won a decisive victory over the main Turkish forces at Zenta (1697). The Ottoman Empire, due to the heavy defeat and exhaustion of its resources, asked for peace. The Danube monarchy also replenished its resources, thus the peace of Karlóc was born in 1699. Hungary was liberated with the exception of Temesköz, and Transylvania also came under Habsburg rule." OrionNimrod (talk) 19:45, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
hi, I have not made an argument that disputes the general information in the sources you have provided here. The main period of Ottoman occupation in the Kingdom of Hungary was between 1541 and 1699.
However, for example, two of the quotes you provided fail to mention that Belgrade and Syrmia were still under Ottoman rule until 1718. If information is not widely available, it is not uncommon for sources to provide incomplete information on one topic or another.
"The Peace of Karlóc, signed in 1699, made the dream of generations come true: a large part of Hungary was freed from the Turkish rule that had lasted for more than one hundred and fifty years. The Ottoman Empire was the only one able to keep Temesköz in the southern part of the country."
“Hungary was liberated with the exception of Temesköz, and Transylvania also came under Habsburg rule."
The following quote is generally accurate, because the Ottoman territory of modern Hungary that remained under Ottoman rule until 1718 was only in the Banat of Temeswar. So the vast majority of modern Hungary was liberated as a result of the 1699 treaty, but it still was the vast majority and not the absolute entirety:
"The liberation of Hungary and the recapture of Buda took place at the end of the 17th century after nearly 150 years of Turkish subjugation."
for me what is important is that the information in the lead is accurate.
it does not need to provide intricate details of the Ottoman occupation of Hungary, as that can be complex and the situation varied over the period. Szirtyu (talk) 23:45, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The territory of present day Hungary was fully liberated after the second battle of Mohacs in 1687 (Mohacs is at the Croatian, Serbian border). Ottomans acknowledged the loss of Ottoman Hungary in 1699 by signing the treaty as close the war. You know all wars end by treaties. Hungary was split in 3 only after 1541, Ottomans created the first elayet at that time = Ottoman Hungary. That is the view of the Hungarian historiography. And Hungary was unified again when Ottoman Hungary was over, which was acknowledged by the Turks signing the treaty in 1699, And not in 1718. It does not matter that some border regions remained under Ottoman control for a short time more, or it does not matter that some border areas like Belgrade was captured by Ottomans in 1521.(Even Belgrade changed 100 times owner during its history) Hungary was still an unified country after 1521 under 1 king. Hungary was split in 3 between 1541-1699 and unified in 1699, that is the important what we need in the lead. All other detais is important as you can see I added the 1521 Belgrade event in the Ottoman Hungary article, and 1718 treaty also important but not in the lead. The lead should be short and list the most important things. Those details should be in sub articles or in detailed sections below. @Gyalu22 also made a compromise when he wrote that “turn of the 18th century” so that period can cover both 1699, 1718 time and not need link the treaties, because that is just a lead. OrionNimrod (talk) 08:48, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I see, Szirtyu, that you've committed yourself to championing clarity, and ceaselessly refer to it like it would be a cornerstone of your argument. But let me confront you with the obvious spoilage you've done on it: [8]. While the collapse of the Hungarian kingdom is given by historiography as a tripartite partition between the Ottoman Turks, Austrian Habsburgs, and a separating Transylvania you try to present it plainly as the fall of Buda to the first, followed by the cession of the country to the second. Such depiction is perplexing to those unfamiliar with the division of one-third to both empires. I'm aware that there were fluctuations on the political landscape, but what I wrote down is true for the entire 150 year period. Your call to "avoid oversimplification" and "not to get into specifics" at the same time doesn't convince anyone of your arrangement either. Gyalu22 (talk) 09:13, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, 1541 and 1699 are the most frequent years as dates of start and end of the Ottoman Hungary period, respectively. --Norden1990 (talk) 10:56, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Karaynn, do you have explanation for your revert? That article is about Hungary and not the Ottoman empire. The mentioned things are part of the Hungarian history. OrionNimrod (talk) 19:18, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it is better to state the key dates in the lead instead of getting into the specifics of the power divisions. These changed during the period and cannot be accurately summed up in one sentence. The Principality of Transylvania was a vassal state of the Ottoman Empire between 1566 and 1699. The majority of the land came to be either an Ottoman eyalet or vassal state at some point. Karaynn (talk) 19:45, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I showed Szirtyu what is the statement of the Hungarian wikipedia regarding Ottoman Hungary and after he engaged to overwrite the Hungarian wiki also, but other Hungarian users in Hungarian wiki do not like his edits: https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vita:Magyarország#A_török_kor (I suppose he use just a google translator for the Hungarian language) OrionNimrod (talk) 19:47, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Karaynn, did you recognized that the article is Hungary and not the Ottoman empire? It is very important that Hungary was split in 3 and that lead is not about the Ottoman empire. OrionNimrod (talk) 19:50, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is interesting, Szirtyu changed the same things in more Wikipedia regarding Hungary: Special:CentralAuth/Szirtyu
After I showed the evidences he tried to remove them from Hungarian wiki: https://hu.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vita:Magyarország&diff=prev&oldid=26755750 OrionNimrod (talk) 20:46, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 18 February 2024[edit]

Request to add Mass media in Hungary under Hungary#Culture. 203.149.142.34 (talk) 10:45, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Shadow311 (talk) 18:08, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 22 February 2024[edit]

Novàk Katalin resigned she is not president. 2A00:1110:231:8E13:118D:E085:1AA3:9876 (talk) 14:00, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done for now: While she has resigned, the citations on her page indicate she remains president until parliament accepts the resignation. Please provide a reliable source when this happens and reopen your request. Jamedeus (talk) 23:55, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]