Talk:Innocenzo Manzetti

Untitled

Possible copyright problem.

Very large sections of this text are invarient with http://www.esanet.it/chez_basilio/manzetti.htm which is itself a copy of B. Catania "Antonio Meucci - L'inventore e il suo tempo," Seat, Rome, 1994, pp. 437-442

The page is in need of a substantial rework to avoid this conflict. Rick Boatright 13:27, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I think this rework has now been done. Biscuittin (talk) 18:59, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

---

Seems like pretty important claims made without much support. There were also acoustic telephones which could transmit speech very nicely over wires. Where are verifiable sources for the claim that this man first proposed the electric telephone? Or that he demonstrated a working on e in the 1860's? The text gives English translations of non-English periodicals without specific citations. This does not stand up well against claims by Hughes, Reis, Bell, Berliner, and Edison who each have well attested and well documented contributions to the telephone as it became in the 1875-1892 period.Edison 03:25, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Names of Manzetti

In the 19th century in Aosta Valley, Italian was not spoken, so it would be correct in my opinion to insert the names in French. --Simoncik84 (talk) 09:26, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Le Petit Journal (Paris) 1865 article on Manzetti's phone

Hi all: several months ago I removed mention of the Petit Journal's article on Manzetti's device from this Wikipedia article, as I had searched the French National Library's newspaper archives and had been unable to find the news story. That was my error, as I had actually searched under for the term "Innocenzo Manzetti", not "Manzetti" as indicated in my earlier edit.

I was successful today in finding the article, now described below, using the plain "Manzetti" search term. Use of Manzetti's full name was unsuccessful earlier because his first name doesn't appear in any part of the article, where he's referred to mainly as 'Manzetti d'Aosta' (Manzetti of Aosta).

Article citation

Quétànd, Èmile (translator). Curiosity of Science, Le Petit Journal, November 22, 1865, No.1026, p.3 (bottom). Extracted from: "Of The Transmission Of Sound And Speech By Telegraph", "Il Corriere di Sardegna" (The Sardinia Courier), date unknown. Retrieved October 3, 2010, from: National Library of France Gallica Digital Archives, this webpage, this document permalink ; this Pg.3 permalink ; this image download FTP.

General description of the article

The news story was extracted from from the "Il Corriere di Sardegna" news journal, or newspaper, by Èmile Quétànd, Lawyer at the Imperial Court of Paris, who submitted it to the Le Petit Journal in Paris. I'm assuming that the il Corriere di Sardegna was published in Italian, and that Quétànd translated it to French for the Petit Journal, so he's been listed as translator. The article quotes no date for the original Sardegna publication.

After the preamble by Quétànd, there are a total of eight paragraphs. Paragraphs # 2 through 7 are basically descriptions of the 'amazing' (implied) automaton that Manzetti had created. The salient text is in the first and also the final paragraph, i.e. # 1 & 8, all printed below at the bottom.

Translation notes (Italian to French, plus French to English, plus typesetting notes)

The article was translated with the assistance of Mr. Google, who left some text in a guesswork state. Using some limited non-conversational French I arrived at a somewhat poor translation as shown below. Some additional factors were apparent translation, editing and typographical errors when Quétànd translated it into French, and then when the article was edited and set to type. My guesswork translation is often, but not completely, denoted as wording [within square brackets]. The eighth paragraph was rather difficult due to an unfamiliar French idiom and phrasings, and I'd appreciate French-fluent editors noting mistranslations and correcting the resultant English text.

Analysis regarding Manzetti's telephone device

Manzetti's telephone device is described principally in terms of its resultant audio quality. No physical or operational description was provided other than to say that its material construction was of poor quality and its design was in its initial stages, which the author believed portended its eventual successful use for the transmission of speech. An important statement: "traders may in a few moments [conduct] their business [between London and Calcutta]", implies that this was a non-acoustic telephone due to its intended range of use, different from Meucci's acoustic telephone designs which had a maximum range of perhaps a kilometer. Critical to its analysis also was the description of its sound quality: it was capable of transmitting music and spoken vowels accurately, but could only transmit and reproduce 'silent vowels' confusingly. My belief, if my translation of 'silent vowels' is correct, is that Quetand was referring to consonants -confirmation will be needed on that. If consonants were being reproduced 'confusingly', it could be that his design was based on some of Reis'es 'make-and-break' telephones, which he had started demonstrating in 1860, approximately five years early. However that's only speculation on my part.

Approximate translation to English from French

CURIOSITY OF SCIENCE.

[To] the editor, I just received from Italy the relationship {or possible typo of 'revelation'} of a very curious discovery that is sure to interest your readers [and that] I think that you will insert in your columns:

Accept, [Sir], the assurances of my highest considerations.

EMILE QUÉTÀND, Lawyer at the imperial court of Paris.
______________________________________________

[Of the] transmission of sound and speech by telegraph [footnote 1]. [Footnote 1: extract from the news journal "Il Corriere di Sardegna" (The Sardinia Courier, date not stated).]

[P1] A new discovery that has great results by applications that can [for] the fine arts and industry, further contributing to the wonders of this century: the transmission of sounds and words by telegraph . The author of this discovery is Mr. Manzetti of Aoste, inventor of a famous [automaton robot] that can not be described in an exact manner. However it is possible to give a short overview in order to facilitate the reader's [knowledge of] [his] [design].

[P2] This automaton is the size of a regular man if we dressed him to hide the internal mechanism, it would resemble a living person. He sits holding a flute in his hands in the attitude of an artist ready to play at the slightest sign. We see taking shape in his body many small tubes of rubber elastic, full of compressed air, similar to veins in the body of man, bring life and movement to the bodies which it is composed. One of these tubes, which is a little more than one centimetre in diameter, put the controller in communication with a harmonium composed expressly for him by the same inventor. When the magician approaches the harmonium and prepared to press the buttons [an assistant inflates] the veins of the [robot] by means of a bellows with which it is put through another tube, the [robot] rose to his feet, salutes the assistants by tilting its head [and] moving his eyes and his eyelids, then it [carries] the flute to its lips, [while] opening its mouth and wagging its tongue.

[P3] Once Manzetti [positions his] fingers on the keys, playing a piece of music he likes, [assistants repeat the song on his automaton-robot flute], [following the artist], or any other Manzetti and accompanying music with magic accuracy. The surprise is becoming [greater] when, seeing the variety of music, the multiplicity of combinations of fingers, tongue, strength or softness of the breathing of the flutist robot, one wonders how [so many] different sounds are transmitted with equal speed and accuracy from the harmonium to the automaton through a single small tube of very narrow diameter that only contains compressed air.

[P4] If the assistants take the tube and presses it lightly, they feel the pulse and believe their fingers are on the pulse of a living person.

[P5] Mr. Matteucci, former Minister of Public Education, distinguished scholar and expert in the physical sciences, was amazed at this wonderful facility. It is easy to give more or less in length to the tube that connects the harmonium to the controller, so Manzetti, his laboratory is in communication with the harmonium and an organ in the cathedral by a tube which can pass through the window and exit through the roofs and streets. With a change of mechanism necessitated by the difference between the organ and flute, he plays the organ at the cathedral, without leaving his lab, where he is being replaced by another pianist.

[P6] The [automaton] is not the only discovery of Manzetti because it is itself an expression of that theory bigger and more complicated that adapts to many industries, for example, hydraulic machines, Jacquart [mechanisms], etc.. -We also mention a small machine with a very modest price (2 or 3 francs) [that] by turning a wheel, reproduces a bas-relief with [the same] precision [as a] photograph reproduces a water color.

[P7] At the beginning of this article, we have talked at length about the discovery of the flutist robot that [screams out the impossible], [an utopic illusion] when we read the story of the [new golden wonder], yet this wonder [is here].

[P8] Manzetti transmits speech directly by an ordinary telegraph wire with a device simpler than that used today for news; now two traders may in a few moments [conduct] their business [between London and Calcutta], inform each other of their speculations, propose and [carry them out]. Several experiments have already been made, [and] they were successful enough to confirm the feasibility of this discovery. It [transmits] music perfectly, for the lyrics, we hear the vowels sounds distinctly, [those pronounced silently are heard confusingly]. This effect comes from the limited sensitivity of the material that the inventor has used to build his apparatus [which has only just started to be developed]. [But, however,] the possibility of transmitting by electricity the vibrations of vowels sound is now demonstrated. -Such a discovery, does it need a comment?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - end of news article - - - - - - -

[promotional advertisement]: For all that is on the ..... in the Petit Journal, ..... politics and .... week, contact the superintendent of ads in the offices on Richelieu.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - end of translation to English - - - - - - -

Original French text from Le Petit Journal

CURIOSITÉ DE LA SCIENCE.

Monsieur le rédacteur, Je viens de recevoir d'Italie la relation {or possible typo of 'revelation'} d'une découverte très curieuse qui ne manquera pas d'intéresser vos lecteurs je pense que vous voudrez bien l'insérer dans vos colonnes:

Agréez, monsieur, l'assurance, de mes sentiments distingués.

ÈMILE QUÉTÀND, Avocat à la cour impériale de Paris.
______________________________________________

De la transmission du son et de la parole par le télégraphe [footnote 1]. [footnote 1: extrait du journal "il Çorriere di Sardegna".]

[P1] Une nouvelle découverte qui aura d'immenses résultats par lés applications qu'on pourra en faire aux beaux-arts et à l'industrie, vient encore accroitre les merveilles de ce siècle: c'est la transmission des sons et des paroles par le télégraphe. L'auteur de cette découverte est M. Manzetti d'Aosle, inventeur d'un fameux automate qu'on ne peut décrire d'une manière exact, mais dont il est possible de donner un court aperçu afin de faciliter au lecteur l'intelligence de ce procédé.

[P2] Cet automate a la taille ordinaire d'un homme si on l'habillait pour dissimuler le mécanisme intérieur, il ressemblerait à une personne vivante. Il est assis tenant dans ses mains une flûte dans l'attitude d'un artiste prêt en jouer au moindre signe. On voit se dessiner dans son organisme beaucoup de petits tubes de gomme élastique, pleins d'air comprimé qui, semblables aux veines dans le corps de l'homme, apportent la vie et le mouvement aux organes dont Il est composé. Un seul de ces petits tubes, qui a un peu plus d'un centimètre de diamètre, met l'automate en communication avec un harmonium composé exprès pour lui, par le même inventeur. Lorsque le thaumaturge s'approche de l'harmonium et se dispose à en presser les touches, une personne de service gonfle les veines de l'automate au moyen d'un soufflet avec lequel il est mis en communication par un autre tube, l'automate se lève sur ses pieds, salue les assistants en inclinant la tète, en faisant mouvoir ses yeux et ses paupières, puis il porte la flûte à ses lèvres en ouvrant la bouche et en remuant la langue.

[P3] Dès que Manzetti promène ses doigts sur les touches, en jouant tel morceau de musique qu'il plait aux assistants d'indiquer, l'automate répète le chant sur sa flûte, suit l'artiste, Manzetti ou tout autre, et accompagne la musique avec une précision magique. L'étonnement s'accroit encore, lorsqu'en voyant la variété de la musique, la multiplicité, des combinaisons des doigts, de la langue, la force ou la douceur de la respiration de l'automate flûtiste, on se demande comment tant de sons si différents sont transmis avec autant de rapidité et de précision par l'harmonium à l'automate au moyen d'un seul petit tube d'un diamètre si étroit et qui ne contient que de l'air comprimé.

[P4] Si les assistants prennent ce tube et le pressent légèrement, ils en sentent les pulsations et croient mettre leurs doigts sur le pouls d'une personne vivante.

[P5] M. Matteucci, ancien ministre de l'instruction publique, savant distingué et expert dans les sciences physiques, a été émerveillé de ce merveilleux mécanisme. Il est facile de donner plus ou moins de longueur au tube qui relie l'harmonium à l'automate; ainsi Manzetti, de son laboratoire, met l'harmonium et communication avec l'orgue de la cathédrale par un tube qui peut passer par la fenêtre et sortir par les toits et les rues. Grâce à une modification du mécanisme, nécessitée par la différence entre l'orgue et la flûte, il joue de l'orgue à la cathédrale, sans quitter son laboratoire, ou il se fait remplacer par un autre pianiste.

[P6] L'automate n'est pas la seule découverte de Manzetti, car il n'est lui-même que l'expression d'une théorie plus vaste et plus compliquée qui s'adapte à de nombreuses industries, par exemple, aux machines hydrauliques, aux métiers à la Jacquart, etc. -Nous mentionnerons aussi une petite machine d'un prix très modique (2 ou 3 francs) en tournant une roue, on reproduit un bas-relief avec autant de précision que la photographie reproduit une aquarelle.

[P7] Au commencement de cet article, nous avons, parlé longuement de la découverte de l'automate flûtiste pour qu'on ne crie pas à l'impossibilité, a l'illusion, a l'utopie, quand on lira le récit de la nouvelle merveille; or, cette merveille, la voici.

[P8] Manzetti, transmet directement la parole par le fil télégraphique ordinaire avec un appareil plus simple que celui qui sert aujourd'hui pour les dépêches; désormais deux négociants pourront, en quelques instants, traiter leurs affaires de Londres a Calcutta, s'informer réciproquement de leurs spéculations, les proposer et les combiner. Plusieurs expériences ont déjà été faites, elles ont suffisamment réussi pour confirmer la possibilité pratique de cette découverte. On transmet parfaitement la musique; quant aux paroles, on entend encore distinctement les voyelles sonores, celles qui se prononcent muettes n'arrivent à l'oreille que confusément. Cet effet provient du peu de sensibilité de la matière que l'inventeur a employée pour la construction d'un appareil à peine ébauché, et qu'il s'occupe à perfectionner. Mais cependant, la possibilité de transmettre par l'électricité les vibrations des voyelles sonores est, dès à présent, démontrée. - Une telle découverte a-t-elle besoin de commentaire?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - end of news article - - - - - - -
[promotional advertisement]: Pour tout ce qui est relatif à la..... dans le Petit Journal, le..... Politique' et le.... de la Semaine, s'adresser au Régisseur des annonces, dans les bureaux de de Richelieu.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - end of page 3 - - - - - - -

Contemporary Biography of Manzetti

It may be worth looking at Tancredi Tibaldi's "Innocenzo Manzetti Di Aosta Appunti e Spigolature", which seems to be the source of most of the modern discourse surrounding Manzetti. It is available at http://issuu.com/arcigayaosta/docs/innocenzo_manzetti_di_aosta, (it is a surprisingly good read) and a translation of the section pertaining to the flute automaton is at http://michaelkrzyzaniak.com/Research/Manzetti.php. I don't have time to update the Manzetti article at the moment, but perhaps at a future date.