Talk:Jamaican English

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 9 January 2020 and 22 April 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): André Lindsay.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 23:15, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 11 September 2018 and 31 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): MirandaMitchell.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 01:01, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Comments

Much of the current content is my work, done quite some time ago, and I haven't been back until now--sorry. I note the problems and will try to work on them. I haven't figured out how to do the IPA symbols yet, and in fact I run into a problem when I try to add references--the part of the article below the reference disappears.

I didn't think of the "subject changes" in the Creole continuum as a problem--I meant to use different sentences as examples--but I see how they could be made clearer. "Me is" and "Me's" is just the perennial problem of how to spell Patois to reflect the pronunciation without confusing the reader. (IPA won't help there either, since only linguist can read it.)

I agree with your comments on the different meaning of higgler, but That's too much detail to go into the article. You could make the same argument for "duppy"--it doesn't have the exact connotations that English "ghost" has. If you can think of other Jamaican-only words to feature there (that are used in Creole as well as Jamaican Standard English), please add them as examples.

(I wasn't born in Jamaica but lived there and have a study subject at home.)

Arankine 19:53, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Errors/Clarification (note: I'm Jamaican born and was raised there till I was 12 but I'm NOT a linguist so I'll leave my suggestions here rather than correcting the main article.)

"Higgler for informal vendor" is a poor translation for a concept which doesn't translate well into standard English. (What is an 'informal' vendor anyway?) While it has a broad definition, its two main uses, for me anyway, are as follows:

• A vendor who haggles or negotiates prices such as stall vendors (farmer's market, flea market, etc)
• It also refers specifically to those who try to turn a quick buck by visiting abroad, purchasing cheap or unbranded merchandise, and reselling it in Jamaica.

The example of the creole continuum is plain wrong. There are subject changes between levels (Me = I, 'Im = He). Secondly, the examples for low mesilect and basilect are identical in prestige and are actual grammatical differences (ignoring subject changes it translates to: "He works over there" vs "He is working over there"). Furthermore, "Me is" sounds flat out wrong. The closest that sounds like is the lowest form of Patois/Patwa where it's slurred together (sounds like me pluralized but shorter): M'is ova'de - I'm over there.

An example of the continuum for me is:

• M'is ova' de-so
• Mi's ova' de
• Mi ova de (most common)
• Mi ova dere
• I'm/I'll be over there (Standard English)

---

This article needs to explain the Jamaican article "fi", which does not exist in Standard English.

This is explained in Jamaican Creole; which starts

"not to be confused with Jamaican English", from the examples given in this article, (""Me a wok ova de-so") - this is 'confused' with Jamaican English.

More IPA is required

The problem is that I can't see the differences in sound unless I see the IPA symbols. This would benefit the article. -Iopq 05:22, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I was going to say the same thing - I'll see if there's any really obvious ones to put IPA to. -- the GREAT Gavini 17:55, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Iopq, mi understand yuh concern. Adding IPA symbols to di article inna Wikipedia would be a real boon. But yuh know, sometimes yuh have to tek di initiative and try fi find di sources dem yourself. There’s plenty of scientific articles out deh pon di topic, and yuh can try looking up dem resources inna di Wikipedia Library. It may take a likkle effort, but it’s a worthwhile endeavor fi enrich di article and mek it more informative and accessible fi everybody. So, give it a shot and see how yuh can contribute to di article’s improvement. Bless up! – Mariâ Magdalina (talk) 23:13, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Bacon

The article claims that:

"Bacon" and "beer can" are homophones in Jamaican English.

While the vowel correspondence is there, it earlier claims that Jamaican English is semi-rhotic and that r is pronounced at the end of stressed syllables. It seems this would imply that the r would be pronounced in "beer can" but silent in "bacon", making them not homophonous. Perhaps someone with more knowledge could clear this up. Furby100 01:51, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

• Re: Beer Can
  Im a "native" Jamaican and we dont use the term "beer can" and "bacon" is refered to as bacon. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.27.3.157 (talk) 07:08:32, August 2, 2007 (UTC)

Diapers v. nappies

There appears to be an internal contradiction within the "Vocabulary" section, with the first sentence suggesting that "diapers" is in use, while the second suggests that "nappies" is the preferred term. This could probably benefit from the attention of a native speaker or current resident. Pastamasta 10:36, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I think it's clear that the "diapers" is used more by younger Jamaicans, and "nappies" is used more by older Jamaicans, as a rough generalization. - BillCJ 03:37, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Pastamasta, when I read it I thought it was contradictory. The Old Trout PS I looked at the page to find out what 'bakkra' meant - I'm assuming it's Jamaican (19th century, slave) slang from the context I've read it in, but would love someone to enlighten me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.143.206.102 (talk) 12:45, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

The Irish accent is a major influence on the accent of Jamaican English today

"The Irish accent is a major influence on the accent of Jamaican English today." WTF??? None of my homies in S London sound remotely like Dara o'Briain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.113.170.72 (talk) 16:29, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

According to this website http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/wells/brogue.htm there is Irish influence in Jamaican English. Is this a suitable source for verification purposes? Differentshelf (talk) 21:32, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Uh, that article strongly implies the complete opposite, although it's not really focused on Jamaican English at all. Wolfdog (talk) 13:01, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

Oi, mi bredren, yuh make a good point deh! Di Irish accent might not be di biggest influence on how we chat inna South London, and we don’t sound like Dara Ó Briain, that’s a fact. But when we talk ’bout Jamaican English, there’s a likkle sometin’ dem call “historical linguistics” – it’s like lookin’ back inna time to see how language mix up.

Back inna di day, when Jamaica was a British colony, yuh had Irish indentured servants and African slaves all livin’ and chattin’ together. So, over time, different accents and dialects mixed up, and di Irish English one was one of dem. Yuh can check out some scientific studies, dem talk ’bout how languages and accents blend when people live together.

Mi nah say di Irish accent run tings inna South London, but inna di mix of Jamaican English, yuh can hear likkle hints of all kinda accents from di past. It’s just one piece of di puzzle, innit? – Mariâ Magdalina (talk) 22:37, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

West African influence?

How does this article not mention Africa? natemup (talk) 19:22, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Probably for one of two reasons, if not a mixture of both: One, No one has cited reliable, published sources that discuss such influences, assuming. such sources exist. Two, most West African influence is probably felt indirectly through Jamaican Patois, which article does discuss such influences. BilCat (talk) 19:39, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

@Natemup I think part of the problem comes with distinguishing Jamaican English from Jamaican Patois, since what you're really talking about is a continuum (cf. post-creole continuum) with Jamaican standard English as the acrolect and "pure" Patwah as the basilect. Our way of writing articles doesn't handle that well. In part because of how people write, and in part because of the way sources partition what is truly a continuum. Guettarda (talk) 21:02, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Mi bredren Natemup, yuh bring up a valid point deh, yuh notice seh di article nuh mention Africa. Well, yuh know, sometimes articles focus on di specific aspects dem, and it might not cover everyting. But if yuh feel seh Africa’s influence pon Jamaican English is important and yuh can find some reliable sources fi back it up, mi would suggest yuh write about it yuhself. Yuh can add dat piece to di puzzle and mek di article even richer. It’s di beauty of wikis, people like yuh can contribute and mek di knowledge grow. So gwaan, mek yuh voice be heard! Respect, mi man. – Mariâ Magdalina (talk) 02:27, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

This not Jamaican Patwah Wikipedia. Please write in Standard English so others editors can understand and respond, per WP:ENGLISHPLEASE. BilCat (talk) 05:25, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Which English dialects are permitted on talk pages, and which ones are not? Please provide a link to the relevant rule. @BilCat – Mariâ Magdalina (talk) 09:24, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

What constitutes Standard English: British or American? – Mariâ Magdalina (talk) 09:29, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Alright, I ’ear ya loud and clear. No need to be too posh about it, innit? I get where you’re comin’ from. We’ll keep it in the Queen’s English for ya, no worries. If ya ’ave any more thoughts or questions, just give us a shout, guv’nor. We’re ’ere to ’elp ya out. Cheers! – Mariâ Magdalina (talk) 11:34, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

So you've gone from offending Jamaicans to offending lower-class English persons. How are you going to offend next?? BilCat (talk) 17:15, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Blimey, no offense intended, luv! I’m a woman who speaks Cockney in my everyday chat, and I’ve got nuffink but love for the people of Jamaica and their accent. We’re all different, innit, and that’s what makes the world an interestin’ place. If I’ve given the wrong idea, I apologize, mate. No ’arm meant, just chattin’ the way I’m used to. Cheers! 😊💜 – Mariâ Magdalina (talk) 17:25, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

I’m dead set against all that classism malarkey. Everyone’s got their own story, their own way of speakin’, and they’re all worth their salt. I’m a staunch supporter of equality, an intersectional feminist, and a proper anarcha-feminist too. No matter the dialect. Cheers to equality, mate! 🌟 – Mariâ Magdalina (talk) 17:42, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Just use standard English. The point of talk pages is to be understood by people from all over the world, and most won't understand Patwah or Cockney. BilCat (talk) 01:38, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Oi, guv’nor! I’ll give it a whirl, but I reckon it’s important we show a bit of respect for all them dialects, innit? Everyone’s got their own way of chattin’, and that’s what makes the world a proper interesting place, don’t it? – Mariâ Magdalina (talk) 01:57, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

That's why there's Facebook, Twitter, et al. BilCat (talk) 03:34, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

@BilCat It’s important to note that the Wikipedia guidelines, to the best of my knowledge, do not impose significant limitations on self-expression on talk pages. I hold a deep respect for all dialects of English, and you are welcome to communicate with me in any dialect that suits your preferences.

However, it’s worth mentioning that the articles I write adhere strictly to Standard English, as per Wikipedia’s guidelines. Communication on talk pages, on the other hand, allows for a wider range of linguistic expression. If you prefer Standard English, I am more than willing to oblige.

I do want to mention that I do not have Twitter or Facebook accounts. My primary mode of communication with fellow Wikimedians is through the Discord messenger in other languages, aside from English. – Mariâ Magdalina (talk) 18:31, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

My decision is based on concerns I share with technology advocate Richard Stallman, a prominent figure in the world of free software and digital rights.

Richard Stallman, known for his tireless advocacy for software freedom, has voiced numerous concerns regarding Facebook and Twitter. He has highlighted issues such as Facebook’s data collection practices, its prioritization of profit over user privacy, and its history of questionable actions that could infringe upon individuals’ rights. Similarly, he has raised awareness about Twitter’s challenges, including potential censorship, algorithmic content manipulation, and the consequences of relying on proprietary software.

As a supporter of open-source software and digital rights, I find Richard Stallman’s insights compelling. It’s important to note that the GNU Project, initiated by Stallman, plays a crucial role in ensuring the availability of free and open-source software, which is essential for Wikimedia projects and various other aspects of the digital world. – Mariâ Magdalina (talk) 21:03, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

This doesn’t make logical sense

“This has been attributed to the Jamaican education system normalising and promoting a rhotic variety of English. Thus, the overall degree of rhoticity in educated Jamaican English remains very low, with rhoticity occurring 21.7% of the time.”

Presumably it should say either “non-rhoticity” or “however” Transient Being (talk) 21:11, 3 April 2024 (UTC)