Talk:Less than Zero (The Weeknd song)

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Requested move 22 August 2022[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved (non-admin closure) ;; Maddy ♥︎(they/she)♥︎ :: talk 14:42, 24 August 2022 (UTC) Clarification: there was also consensus that the word "than" should be lowercase per MOS:5; thus Less Than Zero (song) was moved to Less than Zero (Elvis Costello song). Less than Zero was moved to Less Than Zero (The Weeknd song) by an uninvolved editor; it will now be moved to Less than Zero (The Weeknd song). ;; Maddy ♥︎(they/she)♥︎ :: talk 16:51, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

– Need to differentiate between these two song articles by more than just whether "than" is capitalised or not. Arguing whether one song should be the primary article should be redundant here, because Less Than Zero is already a disambiguation page for more than just the songs, so having Less than Zero as a completely different page is confusing, and although the Weeknd song is getting a lot of attention at the moment, Costello's debut single is also a well known song which will have received plenty of coverage over the years. Richard3120 (talk) 20:32, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support disambiguation aspect, but with lowercase "than": The novel, film and television series are all far more notable than both of those songs put together. However, doesn't MOS:CT say to use lowercase for "than"? —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 04:40, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support disambiguation aspect, but with lowercase "than": I don't know if there is a primary topic for this; however, per MOS:5 should this (and all similar cases) be capitalised? Cinderella157 (talk) 08:52, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support as per nom. 162 etc. (talk) 15:41, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: the Weeknd song has now been retitled to the above suggestion by another editor, so this move request now only applies to the Costello song. @BarrelProof and Cinderella157: I have no objection to "than" being moved to lower case per MOS:TITLECAPS, but if that happens, then every other article listed at the Less Than Zero dab page should be retitled in lower case as well... including the dab page itself, probably. I only suggested "Than" in upper case to be consistent with the other articles with this name. Uh, Cinderella157, "than" doesn't have five letters, so that rule doesn't apply here... Richard3120 (talk) 15:46, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- I believe the "than" falls under "Prepositions containing four letters or fewer", which is what MOS:5 discusses. Yes, all the similar titles should be changed as well. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 15:50, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  - Yes, precisely – I wasn't sure if "than" was a conjunction or preposition in this case, but either way it has fewer than five letters, so it shouldn't be capitalised. Richard3120 (talk) 15:55, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    - Yes, that is what MOS:5 is telling us and yes, it would apply to all pages at the dab - including the dab. Cinderella157 (talk) 22:30, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    - It's a preposition when it connects a noun phrase such as "zero", and a conjunction when it connects a clause, if I understand the dictionary examples I looked at. Dicklyon (talk) 23:17, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support moves to lower case 'than' but otherwise as nominated. --Richhoncho (talk) 10:44, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Post close discussion[edit]

Hi Maddy from Celeste, I don't know if you are aware, but there is an issue with the moved pages. Please see Less than Zero (The Weeknd song). I would also raise generally that I find the title Less than Zero (The Weeknd song) a bit confusing as an article title (forget about the issue of capping than since that is resolved, if not yet fully implemented). Not knowing that the Weeknd is a stage name (act) this very much looks to me to be a subtitle/alternative name. Furthermore, parentheses are not treated as the start of a new sentence and caps should only be applied if necessary. We don't cap the Beatles or the Seekers in prose nor is the Weeknd, though I know that capitalisation of the can be idiosyncratic (MOS:THECAPS). Not italicising the song title doesn't help but I don't think that leads to a solution since the parenthetic text would still have the appearance of being a subtitle/alternative name. Lowercasing the (eg Less than Zero (the Weeknd song) would make this clearer IMO. Another alternative might be Less than Zero (song by T[t]he Weeknd). The second alternative is marginally less concise and not consistent with what is usually done (eg Less than Zero (Elvis Costello song) but this should be weighed against it being (IMHO) significantly clearer in this case. Pinging contributors to this discussion for your thoughts: @Richard3120, BarrelProof, 162 etc., Dicklyon, and Richhoncho:. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 01:15, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The title seems fine. Songs titles would not be italicized, and the uppercasing of 'The' works because the first word of a proper name within the parenthesis would be like the start of a new sentence. Would you prefer (Weekend song)?, which would need a new RM to discuss a change. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:15, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If "The Weeknd" is a proper name that should be capitalized, then some fixes are in order in this article and in the article The Weeknd, which use "the Weeknd" in sentences. If the lowercase is best there, it's best here. And if "the" is not a necessary part of the proper name, then "(Weeknd song)" would be right here, like "(Beatles song)". But I'm not familiar with this guy, so I'm not sure what's the best fix. Dicklyon (talk) 03:30, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Checking sources, I find "The Weeknd" almost always with capped The in sentences; The seems to be a necessary part of the proper name. It's not clear why these articles have lower "the", so that's probably the thing to fix. Dicklyon (talk) 03:35, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Good finds. Makes sense, since he's known by the name The Weekend. A pretty good name, would be a nice Wikipedia username (let's see: user:The Weekend) but I'd think, since it's this fellow's common name, that would be flagged as an impersonation. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:52, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the capital T. See, for example, Perfect (The Smashing Pumpkins song), All I Want (The Offspring song). 162 etc. (talk) 04:21, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm OK with The Weeknd, but in some of these others I think the The is not needed. I'd say Perfect (Smashing Pumpkins song), All I Want (Offspring song) would be better. So don't use those as the reasons. Dicklyon (talk) 05:09, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

which is an old issue with no consensus. See WT:Manual of Style/Music/Archive 8#RfC: using "The" in song/album article titles. Dicklyon (talk) 05:15, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, the substantive issue I'm raising is the clarity of the parenthetic disambiguation and that it creates the impression of a subtitle/alternative name - ie it is a song about the weekend (with a contraction of weekend, which is not an unreasonable perception). I was not raising an issue of whether or not the should be capitalised or even included but feeling out how clarity could be improved. Cinderella157 (talk) 09:52, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's pretty standard to use odd band names and such as disambiguators for songs and such, whether they're recognizably clear on their own or not. Doing something different would be inconsistent. Dicklyon (talk) 15:46, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]