Talk:List of limited series/Archive 1

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This archive page covers approximately the dates between 05 September 2005 to 22 January 2006.

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Examples

In my opinion, the list of examples would make much more sense if it would also list for how many issues each series ran. --Fritz S. 11:38, September 5, 2005 (UTC)

Infinite/Identity Crisis and what constitutes a "maxiseries"

Are these Maxi-series? They're only seven issues, which is mini-series length. And while you could argue that with the number of tie-ins the length is bumped up, but then what about House of M etc?

I propose these two are removed.

EDIT: And what about Earth X, etc? This list is far from complete either way. I'll put up a thingy to say that

EDIT 2: After further thought, the way I'd define a maxiseries is any self-contained story designed to have a large impact on the reader (but not other comic books) which is at least 8 issues in length, possibly 7 at a stretch. Additionally any story over 9 issues in length doesn't need the qualification. Therefore I wouldn't include Infinite/Identity Crisis, as they are not self-contained. That's a rather convuluted explanation :/ rst20xx 21:03, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Infinite/Identity Crisis must stay. Dyslexic agnostic 12:11, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for that. Any justification why? rst20xx 12:17, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

How many make a maxi?

I suggest that, unless we get more information, 7 issues+ remain, simply because we have recent works of 7 issues that have never had to be classified before, namely Identity and Infinite Crisis. Perhaps the cost of comics makes it appropriate for shorter tales to still bear the title maxiseries. This webpage even calls a six-issue series, Vigilante, a maxiseries! Dyslexic agnostic 16:21, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Oh, please... it's a matter of being reasonable. Seven issues make a maxiseries? So the reason to keep it on seven is just because we have recent works of 7 issues?? C'mon... Lesfer ☎ 17:47, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry but IMO a maxiseries is a self-contained series (i.e. without loads of tie-ins from ongoing series) of at least 9 issues, maybe 8 at a stretch. If Identity/Infinite Crisis are allowed in, why not House of M? And so on and so on and then this list gets spammed by things that are not maxiseries... rst20xx 19:05, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
So, what do we do with notable works of 7 or 8 issues? Do we lump them in with 4 issue "miniseries"? You state "IMO", but that's exactly the point, it's opinion! How do we constructively get a real answer to this? Any thoughts? The fact that we have "recent works" from both major companies perhaps is a signal that "large" limited series in today's industry are less than 12 issues, but with many crossovers which makes them huge. Is Seven Soldiers a three-issue mini, or a 30-issue maxi? I think we should be inclusive here, not rigid, until we can find an objective definition Dyslexic agnostic 19:21, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
I think we should try and find out what popular opinion on this is, and that opinion should be prevalent. It appears to me that the majority feel that Identity/Infinite Crisis are miniseries, something refelected by the fact that they are called "miniseries" on their relevant pages. And you say So, what do we do with notable works of 7 or 8 issues? Do we lump them in with 4 issue "miniseries"?, but the only two notable works of 7 or 8 issues (or at least works of 7 or 8 issues currently included here) are the two I'm complaining about. Finally, it appears to me that you are taking the attitude that calling Infinite/Identity Crisis is derogatory to them (Do we lump them in with 4 issue "miniseries"?). Calling a series a "maxiseries" is not a complement, but a comment on a series' length. As for Seven Soldiers, yes that's complicated but due to the fact that it meets the "self-contained" criteria and the various mini-series it is made of are intended to be read together, IMO that's a maxiseries made up of miniseries. But I think this, all should be put up for discussion on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Comics. I'll do that now. rst20xx 22:48, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

I think House of M has a better claim than Infinite Crisis on a couple of levels:

  1. While there are spin-offs in other series, the core plot (what there is of it...) is confined to the main series - the only connection the spin-offs have is that they take place in a shared universe with the main series, while Infinite Crisis has actual plot outside the core bok.
  2. Eight vs. seven issues. Eight is the bare minimum I would consider a maxiseries - and I'd prefer to say twelve. There is NO WAY a seven-issue series is a maxiseries. Next you'll be trying to class six-issue miniseries as maxis on the basiss it's one less than seven.

Oh, and Seven Soldiers is a metaseries consisting of two one-shots and seven minis, similar to Age of Apocalypse. Not a maxiseries in and of itself. - SoM 23:24, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

  • A Story arc is 4 to 6 issues and is part of a ongoing story! The Maxiseries is a story with beginning and end in 7 to 12 issues! EX: Midnight Nation for the Maxiseries and House of M or Infinite Crisis is a Story arc becucse it is part of a ongoing story! In short a Maxiseries is a very long one-short --Brown Shoes22 08:26, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, it looks like whatever the difference is, the current info is spreading: [1] and [2]. Dyslexic agnostic 09:05, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't think the fact that some website quoted Wikipedia on saying that those two are maxiseries helps your cause. It just shows that that website is lazy :P As for the concept of a metaseries, I'd never heard of it before and it sounds just right for the series in question.
I propose we lay down some rules (possibly to be included in the article) defining a maxiseries along the lines of the following:
A maxiseries is:
  • intended to have a finite length (this rules out cancelled series)
  • (mainly) self-contained
  • something with a beginning and ending
  • generally 9 issues or longer
  • 30 issues or shorter (this rules people trying to make things like Cerebus a maxiseries, which without this rule it is. Any longer and IMO they must be telling more than one story and so are basically and ongoing)
Opinions? Thoughts? Obviously this goes against what Dyslexic agnostic thinks, but I get the impression the majority feel Identity/Infinite Crisis are not maxiseries and I think clearing up what is now will help for the future. rst20xx 13:09, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
I would suggest you clarify by what you mean by "Self-Contained". Is it something like Watchmen where it's set in another universe, without any tie-ins? Or is it more like Crisis where you can read the story without having to read any of the tie-in issues in order to understand it. If the latter is the case, I would say that Infinite Crisis would not be a maxiseries. It's too heavilly dependent on all the tie-ins, lead-ins, and specials (We had four 6 issue minis, a 4 issue mini, Countdown, JSA Classified 1-4, and Wonder Woman 218. 34 issues all directly impacting Infinite Crisis before the first issue was published.) to form a story without reading. (Identity Crisis would qualify as a maxi on all criteria but length) Infinite Crisis probably should bear the title of a metaseries, like Seven Soldiers.--Toffile 17:24, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Well I think by "self-contained" I mean that it has no or limited tie-in miniserieses. While Identity Crisis did not have any tie-ins at the time, I would argue that it has in a way since in the form of the emotional fallout through stories like Crisis of Conscience and CoC's repurcussions. So the story is not self-contained as the problems it raised were/are still being resolved in other titles. Same for House of M - can be read as fairly self-contained, but has a large number of tie-ins, is in many ways a sequel to Avengers Disassembled, and has its fallout dealt with in Decimation. As for Infinite Crisis being a metaseries, I disagree, as some of the tie-in issues are in ongoing books and as a result I feel that disqualifies it. It is close though. I would say the only two metaseries I know of are Age of Apocalypse and Seven Soldiers, which are both made up of lots of miniseries and nothing else.
I think it's probably safe to remove Infinite/Identity Crisis from the list tho, as although what a maxiseries is is still undefined, consensus seems to be that they are not maxiseries. rst20xx 18:55, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
If we even have to debate and set up our own criteria, then clearly there IS a lack of definition that defies us (a few editors) from determining the criteria as if it were fact. I suggest that we list the "clear" maxiseries (10 or more would do), and THEN list the 7-9 issue series, with a note on the page that there is in fact uncertainly on this issue. ALSO, I note that limited series currently redirects to miniseries, where this clearly is wrong, as limited series is the higher order of classification, into which miniseries, maxiseries and metaseries must all fall. Maybe there should in fact be a separate List of limited series (comics) which can then be all-inclusive, and list of maxiseries and list of miniseries can redirect there. Those are my thoughts... I look forward to further comments (and applaud this debate as an (ever more rarely seen) example of civil and gentlemenly debate on a talk page. Dyslexic agnostic 19:00, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
I would suggest that there is a problem with disqualifying Identity Crisis as a maxiseries by the "self-contained" criteria, rather than the length criteria. The problem with that criteria is that if you wish to consider all the tie-ins after the fact...please remomve the original Crisis from the list. We've dealt with 20 years of tie-ins after the fact...
  • Interjection - I don't recall how much bearing they had on the core mini, but there were labelled ID Crisis tie-ins at the time (a Flash arc & Firestorm #6 leap to mind). - SoM 02:55, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Not a whole lot, if I recall correctly. I don't remember the particulars of the Firestorm issue, butthe Flash arc dealt not with Identity Crisis itself, but Wally coming to terms with what Barry had done. It also revealed that some of Barry's rogues had been mindwiped by the Top, which was one of the seeds leading up to the Rogue's War arcs. None of this had to transpire with the events of ID Crisis (Which were Sue's rape, Loring going crazy, and the revelation of mindwipes), but rather the effects of the events.--Toffile 03:25, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
House of M is a maxiseries, sure there were plenty of tie-ins, none of them are essential to understand the plot of it. The relationship to Avengers Disassmbled is a point, but still you don't need to know the events in it, to know what's going to happen.
Perhaps we should make an alternate label for the mega-events that get published so often. I'd have to go check and see if we have any articles on the ones now.--Toffile 19:09, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
To expand, I think that the criterion of being "Self-contained" should mean "In the timeframe of it's pulication, the series can be read and understood without any significant outside knowledge of continuity." I disagree with disqualifying a series by what a publisher does after the fact. This is true for most of the limited series that have made some sort of lasting mark on continuity. If the universe changes a bit, you should expect that the publisher will go on and explore those changes further than what happened in that series. Not just because of curiosity, but because there might be a boost in sales. This definition would qualify Identity Crisis and Crisis, but disqualify Infinite Crisis. (Since the latter borrows heavilly from the former, as well as all the miniseries that preceded it.)--Toffile 19:27, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
In response to some ideas:
  • Dyslexic agnostic said we should have a list of miniseries as well as maxiseries. However IMO there are two many miniseries to list. But I agree with his idea of mkaing "limited series" a disambigulation page for the three types of series, with definitions of each also given there.
  • Toffile said we should make a list of all the mega-events at each company. This already appears at Marvel Universe and DC Universe.
  • Toffile also expresses that it's natural that publishers will go on and explore the implications of maxiseries and so serieses should not be disqualified for it. This is a tough one - should follow-up serieses disqualify a series from being maxi? I would guess I have to say no. I mean it appears everyone agrees Crisis is a maxi but Infinite Crisis/Identity Crisis/House of M are not. And this definition fits the bill, which isn't the way we should be doing things but never mind :P rst20xx 16:29, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
    • As a quick note, I said that the criterion would qualify ID Crisis, but it would be disqualified for length. =P I think we might say that a maxiseries is a protracted miniseries if we really wanted to keep it simple. --Toffile 16:38, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

BTW

DC itself describes InfC as a miniseries in the #7 solicit [3] - SoM 11:24, 16 January 2006 (UTC)


Rising Stars and maxiseries vs. cancelled series

OK, I have created a start to limited series (comics), and revised maxiseries and miniseries re number of issues. NOW, however, we have User:Rst20xx adding Rising Stars as a maxiseries, of 24 issues. Was this intended by JMS from the start, or did he just decide to cancel it there? Planetary will come to an end after issue 27 [4], also by intent (but we the reader were never told that), and Y: The Last Man was apparently written from the outset with a 60-issue plan [5]. What about John Byrne's Next Men? Where is the limit? Rst20xx suggested a 30-issue limit, but I don't see where that rationale comes from. "Anywhere from 10-30" is a pretty broad spectrum; a 24 issue series is FAR different in scope and breadth than a 12 issue series (and I daresay a 7 issue series is much closer). I suggest we look to the limited series as a place where all readers can be guided to for this type of info. Dyslexic agnostic 19:42, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Also, please see my writeup for metaseries. -- Dyslexic agnostic 19:58, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Well I added Rising Stars because the Rising Stars page calls it a maxiseries. Altho I haven't read it yet so I can't say if it stands true for the series, but IMO a limited series becomes an ongoing series when the story being told changes. I got the impression that the story being told was the same story at the start and the end, and that Straczynski had the whole series planned out before he started it. (Although I could well be wrong about this, someone who's read it will have to tell me).
I think when it comes to upper limits, a series which the writer plans out in its entirety before he starts writing it can be a maxiseries, but a series (like Y: The Last Man almost certainly is) that the writer decides to set a limit on the number of issues for early on but does not decide how the characters will get to that issue number until he has started writing the series doesn't count. And cancelled series obviously don't count. Hope that makes sense... rst20xx 16:37, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Comments on the three terms and on sourcing

Not sure where to post my thoughts, but I agree that we should probably just redirect miniseries and maxiseries to limited series. From what I remember maxi series was coined around the time of Camelot 3000, and was something of a marketing term which has never really been explicitly defined. Is it still common currency? I didn't think it ever really caught on. As to what constitutes a limited series, we can only use the term to define comics which have been described as such by a reliable source, either in the comics press, trade catalogue or by the publisher themselves. We should not be ascribing any of these terms to any book which hasn't had the description applied to it in some such reliable source, since such a description constitutes original research. Hiding talk 12:01, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Except... miniseries has more application than simply comics, so that simple redirect would not do. Maxiseries redirect would be fine, as that seems to be solely a comic genre invention. Dyslexic agnostic 16:22, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
What you would do in that instance is redirect people through a disambiguation link across the top of the miniseries page. This article concerns the use of the term miniseries as it relates to television series. For use of the term miniseries within the comic book industry, see limited series. We would then move all comic book related information from that page to limited series. That would depend on gaining a consensus for such a move, of course. It would also require that links to miniseries in comic book articles are suitable redirected, but I believe there are tools that can do that. Again a consensus would be required. Hiding talk 17:00, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Very good, I am in favour. Others? Dyslexic agnostic 17:56, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I have rerouted all substantive wikis to maxiseries to now go to limited series (comics). Dyslexic agnostic 04:02, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Why? rst20xx 17:22, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

ok, on top of my mind: wouldn't it be logical that if maxiseries= 12, 13 or 14 issues; and miniseries= 4 to 5 issues; then the limited series of 6, 7, 8, 9 or 10 fall in neither of those categories, and can be called just "limited series". I mean, if they are in the middle point they shouln't be called neither "maxi" nor "mini". I mean everybody refers to villains unired, infinite crisis, identity crisis and the rest just as limited series or series.--T for Trouble-maker 20:50, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Not true. Many refer to them as mini-series, including DC. rst20xx 13:00, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Page move?

Why did this page just get moved? I don't see anything on the talk page about it.--Toffile 16:12, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately T-Man moves things without waiting for consensus. I nominated the page moves and next thing I know he has moved everything, and left incorrect double redirects which I had to fix. But hey, don't bite the newbies, I always say! Dyslexic agnostic 20:07, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi, everybody! Sorry I if I was too bold. The pages are recent and created by the same guy, and since there was no discussion page in 2 out of 3 articles, and they all have the same info (they were all in "stud" state), I figured it'd be ok. So I merged them all to limited series pages. Hope you agree the new tittle is more apropiate since lists aren't regularly on the article describing the characteristics of their listed items (for example the list of villains isn't on the villain article; the list of movies isn't on the movie article, the list of X kind of novels isn't on the novel page; ...and so on).

I also erased the paragraph that started "it debatable whether 6 to 9 issues long limites series..." or something like that, since it is just wrong (those are just called series or limited series) and therefore there are obviously no good sources saying so. By the way, dyslexic is the newby in both wikipedia and comics as you can see in a couple of summaries here [6] and here User talk:T-man, the Wise Scarecrow#Happy New Year!!!...We are even now. But I propose we cut the insults (newbie), at least on discussion pages. (--T for Trouble-maker 20:47, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

No, no real trouble. I was just wondering about it since I didn't see any idea of it getting tossed around.--Toffile 23:46, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I thought this was a new page. Justa as the limited series, metaseries and miniseries. Alone they seem studs, but together they almost look like an article... BTW, have you ever heard the term "metaseries" occidenal comics? Morrison calls his 7 soldairs thing mega series; but I think metaseries is just made up. The according to me, they are just spins-of series or tie-in series. But what do you think?--T for Trouble-maker 02:04, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

To be honest, I really hadn't heard of it. However, I really can't disagree with it. Morrison is tying 7 smaller tales within the framework of a larger tale. I can't call it a spinoff because there it's not being spun-off of any existing series. I can't call it a tie-in, because the miniseries are the bulk of the central narrative.--Toffile 02:22, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
I think that's why grant coined the term megaseries. I really see the need for a term, but we need some good sourcing to avoid being the primery source. we need a word to call that house of m and crisis new style, which wouldn't fit with the megaseries concept. I think they have used a special word on the Comics Continuum and Wizard.--T-man, the worst "vandal" ever 05:46, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
I said it before, and I'll say it again: DC Comics calls Infinite Crisis a mini-series. From their solict from IC #7: The awe-inspiring conclusion to the miniseries event of the year![7] On top of that, pretty much everyone here agrees that 8 issues and down are miniseries, some even arguing it should be 11 and down. I think that's fairly clear. rst20xx 10:40, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

something wrong with the redirect

Dyslexic couldn't fix the redirect, neither could I. Is't weird, because the link on this page takes you to the redirect page, but from there the link does take you to the right article. does somebody knows a way to fix that (besides changing the link on this page to [[limited series (comics)|maxiseries]])?--T for Trouble-maker 21:07, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

it's a double redirect. You should just redirect straight to limited series (comics), see Wikipedia:Redirection. Hiding talk 21:54, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks!--T for Trouble-maker 21:56, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

List of limited maxiseries

Talk:List of limited maxiseries Oops I did it again, sorry. Kinde fixed it already myself, though... :P --T-man, the worst "vandal" ever 22:28, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

name of the page

Ok,how are series on ongoing series like Hush called? Like when a regular title has a 12 issue story arc... --T-man, the worst "vandal" ever 22:26, 21 January 2006 (UTC) Is there such thing as a non limited maxiseries?--T-man, the worst "vandal" ever 02:27, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

No, it's just a long story arc. rst20xx 10:35, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
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