Talk:Maghreb

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Population genetics[edit]

Dear user, there is increasing vandalism in relation to the genetic origin of the Maghreb population. There are users who delete scientific expertise (which I had specified) and use inauthentic sources such as books by tourism authors as sources.

Yelendo, 20:23, January 18th 2023 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yelendo (talkcontribs)

User:Skitash cites author's books as sources of genetics, not scientific evidence. Here are the non-authentic sources:

https://books.google.dz/books?id=vf4TBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA23#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3509799.stm

https://books.google.dz/books?id=_l87ixBRpKIC&pg=PA62#v=onepage&q&f=false

This source contradicts the sources above!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4552629/

Dear users! Please stop this vandalism and racism. Many Thanks

Yelendo, 00:18, January 20th 2023 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yelendo (talkcontribs)

Ethnicity[edit]

@Yelendo: while you may not agree with the fact that your edit has been reverted by Skitash, you cannot keep reinstating it while describing the revert as vandalism (which has a specific meaning that doesn't apply in this case). I'm starting this discussion to give you the opportunity to discuss your changes and seek consensus for them. M.Bitton (talk) 14:16, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@M.Bitton
Thank you for the notification. I don't see it as advantageous to edit versions again and again. However, looking at the history of versions, User Skitash changed the contribution and meaning of the terms (Arab and Berber), not me. I cite sources from scientists who deal with the genetics of peoples and Maghrebs. In contrast to user Skitash, who gives the source as authors and journalists who firstly write travel books and secondly refer to the language and culture. That's why I used the term "Arab Berber".
User Skitash denies in all his contributions eg also with Morocco (population) the genetic origin of the North Africans (Berber). Other users have also not denied in the history that North Africans are genetically largely of Berber origin.
My compromise is - Arab - Berber but because linguistically and culturally - Arabic and genetic - mostly Berber. But this is always deleted by User Skitash. Please also look up the sources in other language versions of Wikipedia. For example in Arabic and French. A mixture of ethnic groups is always specified. I don't want to cause any problems here. However, I ask that people describe themselves as they describe themselves and where there is also expertise, for example from: National Library of Medicine.
Thank you.
Yelendo
15:31, 27. Januar 2023 (UTC) Yelendo (talk) 14:32, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Yelendo. You need to understand the difference between ethnic groups and genetics because they are not the same thing. I don't know which travel book you are referring to but those sources are reliable and published by authentic authors like CIA, Oxford, Al Jazeera, BBC and they all give accurate ethnic percentages. Like I said, if you want to add genetic sources put them in the right section instead of mixing them with unrelated things. Skitash (talk) 16:30, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the reply Skitash! I have therefore also chosen the term "Arab-Berber" (which already exists). In fact, ethnicity and genetics is something different. What I am trying to say here is that the population of the Maghreb is largely Arabic, culturally and linguistically. However, the genetics in many parts of the population are Berber or mixed Berber-Arab. But just mentioning this in the genetics section also contradicts things like the Arabic language (which is spoken in the Maghreb, which was influenced by the Amazigh language or cultural customs like Fantasia in Morocco or the Douz Equestrian Festival etc.). So wait a minute, I am using the term "Arab-Berber" as a more appropriate term, as that is the most appropriate description of the population. I am neither a Berberist nor an enemy of the Arabic language. On the contrary, I love the Arabic language. I hope you understand what I want to say. Yelendo 22:58, 16 Mar 2023 (UTC) Yelendo (talk) 21:58, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the suggestion but this does not really solve the problem. "Arab-Berber" isn't an ethnic group and isn't an accurate term. The Arab-Berber page seems to have no definition and its unclear if it refers to people of mixed Arab and Berber origin or if it just combines both ethnic groups. Sources which use that term say Arab-Berbers make up 99% of the population, and this doesn't show the true ethnic percentages. I believe the best option is to leave the page with the current percentages as supported by many sources. Skitash (talk) 19:43, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The books I am referring to is:"Libya" by Peter Malcolm and Elizabeth Losleben and "Native Peoples of the World" by Steven L. Danver (historian). As far as I know, none of these are involved in genetics science. Yelendo 23:11, 16 Mar 2023 (UTC) Yelendo (talk) 22:11, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Spain[edit]

@M.Bitton The Maghreb is a geographical term that is built around the concept of a common cultural base for the region of North-Western Africa. It is not about the countries in it, but focused on their culture, heritage and history.

It is correct that Spain owns territory near Morocco that are in geopgrahical Africa, but that doesn't give Spain a Maghrebi character. Their culture is mainly West-European. For that reason, I don't see the justification to include Spain as a country (not its owned places) as part of the Maghreb.

We also don't say that the European Union is African, South American, Asian and European at the same time just because some of its member states own territory in those continents. For that reason, mentioning that Spain owns territories in the region may be justified, but by including the flag you argue it having a Maghrebi culture making it part of the Maghreb, what is not the case and icorrect.

So, that's why I marked your edit as vandalism, but should have come to Talk:Maghreb before that to explain myself. Keksfresser12 (talk) 22:35, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Though I see that there is no North-Western Africa article. Yet, to own territory in another continent isn't enough to make one African or Asian, so I still think it would be wrong to consider Spain as Maghrebi or France as African (Mayotte, etc).
This may be part of a bigger discussion. Keksfresser12 (talk) 22:42, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Keksfresser12: First of all, the word "vandalism" has a specific meaning on Wikipedia (I suggest you familiarize yourself with it). I get what you're saying, but since the infobox is meant to summarize what's in the article, we cannot just omit the information from it, so one possible solution would be to list Ceuta and Melilla (rather than Spain). 22:43, 17 February 2023 (UTC) M.Bitton (talk) 22:43, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I meant personally marked it as such and not by Wikipedia definition. Used the wrong word.
Mentioning solely Ceuta and Melilla would be also wrong (see Plazas de soberanía). Additionally, if we go by strict geographical standard, technically the Canary Islands would also have to be included as part of North-Western Africa/Maghreb.
So, this discussion may be more about Maghreb being a substitute for North-West Africa or whatever we talk more about the cultural aspect. I don't know how other articles with similar issues (Mongolia| East Asia) handle this.
Well, if the current version is meant to stay maybe an annotation regarding Spain should be added. Keksfresser12 (talk) 22:58, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
See North Africa for the difference between geopgrahical and geo-cultural term. The latter is more what Maghreb is or rather its article should be about. Keksfresser12 (talk) 23:05, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Tuareg - not included at all?[edit]

Just realized that the Tuareg people have not a single mention in the article despite them having been crucial for the trans-Saharan trade and by that the history of the Maghreb.

Should be added therefore. Keksfresser12 (talk) 23:13, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Inclusion of the maghreb into Tamazgha[edit]

Hi to all, i wanted to add an information of connection between maghreb and Tamazgha as the first one is incluted in the berber influence territory; what do you think about it? Lord Ruffy98 (talk) 17:27, 13 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

How many reliable sources connect the two, or to be more precise, how many reliable sources about the Maghreb connect the Maghreb to Tamazgha? M.Bitton (talk) 17:57, 13 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, i will link some source about this conncection, articles and papers. My intention was to add a sentence to show that the x countries of the maghreb are included into Tamazgha as this inludes morocco,algeria,tunisia,libya,western sahara and mauritania.
[1]https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057/9780230358515_2
[2]https://mespi.org/project/where-is-the-maghreb-theorizing-a-liminal-space/
[3]https://www.jadaliyya.com/Details/44046
[4]https://www.eurasiareview.com/26052022-discovering-the-amazigh-people-and-their-culture-analysis/ Lord Ruffy98 (talk) 18:24, 13 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A quick note: the first source (written by professors of theatre) makes a claim about the ancient world that doesn't make sense as the word Tamazgha was invented in the 1970s. The second source is not an article and the last two are about Tamazgha and what the Berber activists claim (not the Maghreb). M.Bitton (talk) 18:29, 13 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the answear. I don't see why it doesn't make sense as althoug the word Tamazgha is recent the concept of it or at what it refers is ancient and describes the area of influence of the berber tribes.
For the second one, i know, it's an interview. For the last two, why activists? The last articles is from a Professor of education science and a political analyst. I wouldn't put everything in a propaganda point of view.
This is a piece of the articles:
"From around 2000 BC, the Berber languages ​​spread westward from the Nile Valley to the Maghreb, passing through the northern Sahara. In the first millennium BC, their speakers were the native inhabitants of the vast region visited by the Greeks, Carthaginians, and Romans. A series of Berber peoples – Mauri, Masaesyli, Massyli, Musulami, Gaetuli, Garamantes – then gave rise to Berber kingdoms under Carthaginian and Roman influence.....
The Berbers claim a presence in the Maghreb that is more than five thousand years old. Their community extends over nearly five million square kilometers, from the Egyptian-Libyan border to the Atlantic and from the Mediterranean coast to Niger, Mali and Burkina Faso...
"
So, do you think it would be useful to add this information? Lord Ruffy98 (talk) 19:03, 13 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
md.sakib 103.214.202.10 (talk) 16:28, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Md.sakib 103.214.202.10 (talk) 16:29, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]