Talk:Nemesis (Alpha Flight)

Untitled

I've just removed the references to the first one's name being "Catherine," since that's original research at best. Where did it come from? Her name has never been given in any comic.Le Messor 01:34, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Imprecise disambiguation

The current article title "Nemesis (Marvel Comics)" is contrary to WP:PRECISION as it's not "precise enough to unambiguously define the topical scope of the article". It also doesn't follow Wikipedia:NCC#Between characters of different publishers, as there are other characters also from Marvel Comics named Nemesis that are not covered by the article (namely Nemesis (Ultraverse), Nemesis (Icon Comics) from a Marvel's imprint, and Holocaust (comics); all these can be the character intended by someone looking for a Marvel's Nemesis). The page needs to be moved to something more specific.

I've chosen Nemesis (Alpha Flight) trying to follow some of the established conventions at Category:Marvel Comics superheroes. Given that the three characters originated in Alpha Flight, the team's name looks like an specific enough title. Diego (talk) 17:22, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Per WP:NCC, the disambiguation should not be any more precise than necessary. Since all three characters are part of the same article, "(Marvel Comics)" is enough to differentiate this article, from other articles about characters named Nemesis. Until there is another article about a character named Nemesis, who appeared somewhere else in the Marvel Universe, the fact that all these characters appeared in Alpha Flight is irrelevant. Fortdj33 (talk) 03:21, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

There are three other articles about characters named Nemesis that appeared in the Marvel Universe, they're listed in the comment above. Did you ever read my comment? The title you're reverting to is *not* precise enough, using the very same criterion you've just defined. Diego (talk) 10:28, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

There are two more Marvel characters (Doctor Nemesis) and one video game (Marvel Nemesis: Rise of the Imperfects) with names ambiguous with this article under the rules of Wikipedia:Article titles#Treatment of alternative names. Diego (talk) 11:12, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

I did read your example above, and if the other characters that you mentioned have appeared in the main Marvel Universe, then Nemesis (Marvel Comics) could become a separate disambiguation page for those characters. But there are many examples where an article covers more than one character in the Marvel Universe, but uses "(Marvel Comics)" to disambiguate it from other articles about characters with the same name. Bushmaster (comics) is a disambiguation page, but Bushmaster (Marvel Comics) covers two similar characters in the Marvel Universe. Same with Crimebuster (comics) / Crimebuster (Marvel Comics), Jack Frost (comics) / Jack Frost (Marvel Comics), and many others. I'm sorry if you disagree with this naming convention, but moving this article back to your POV before a consensus has been reached, is in very poor taste. And this talk page is for discussing how to improve the content of the article. Making personal comments towards me, such as "Did you ever read my comment?" and "Is it clear now?" goes against WP:CIVIL, and is not constructive or helpful to Wikipedia. Fortdj33 (talk) 15:07, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

You kidding me? The problem has never been that this article contains more than one character, it's that there are other Marvel characters outside of the article named with the disambiguator Marvel Comics (something that doesn't happen at Bushmaster (Marvel Comics), Crimebuster (Marvel Comics) nor Jack Frost (Marvel Comics), so those are not really the same at all). Those other articles get to follow the convention because their names are not ambiguous, but this one article's title is.

You cannot make two reverts in a row and then call for WP:BRD after that; and your third revert went abovedangery close to the three revert rule, which is a much worse sin - it's actually a direct policy breach. And I had reasons for wondering whether you actually read my reasons for the move, since you repeatedly have shown signs of not understanding the issue at hand. Having doubts about your WP:COMPETENCE and asking you to demonstrate it is not considered a personal attack - since I never made comments about your *person*, only about your behavior. You have now agreed twice that having other Marvel characters means that the (Marvel Comics) title should refer to all of these characters and not just those in Alpha Flight; since I've pointed you to five other articles for other uses of "Nemesis" that have appeared in the Marvel Universe, I am utterly dumbfounded by your latest revert. Diego (talk) 22:59, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

I have no desire to argue with you, but since you have attacked me again by questioning my competence, I feel the need to defend myself. The idea behind WP:BRD is to take it to the talk page after a reversion has been made, in order to reach a consensus. After you made your bold move to Nemesis (Marvel superheroine), I reverted the page to the naming convention supported by WP:NCC. At that point, a discussion should have taken place, to figure out the best title for the article. Instead, you "chose" Nemesis (Alpha Flight), and with no other discussion, made a second bold move. So yes, I moved it back a second time, with a reminder of WP:BRD, and came here again hoping to reach a consensus. You attacked me for disagreeing with you, and moved it back to your POV a third time.

So at this point, we have both come close to breaking the WP:3RR rule, when the purpose of this discussion should have been to prevent all that move warring in the first place! I am still open to discussion, but only if you are able to remain civil. In the meantime, this article should remain at Nemesis (Marvel Comics) until a consensus can be reached, because no matter how many other characters in the Marvel Universe are named Nemesis, all of them have their own disambiguation, and are covered by articles other than this one. Fortdj33 (talk) 01:53, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

If you think that questions like "do you understand this?" or "I see no signs that you've understood what I wrote" are personal attacks, you need to grow a thicker skin to post at the internet. Precisely because there are other characters in the Marvel Universe named Nemesis you need to change the title of this one, because this title is directly against the WP:PRECISION policy. I made the second move to Alpha Flight because this comment of yours seemed to agree with this logic (even if you opposed to the action that the logic dictates); but I can no longer see any logic in your comments (so far as your premises disagree with your conclusions), so I'll wait to discuss the input from other editors. Diego (talk) 07:06, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm not trying to be difficult, but the point is that your second move to Nemesis (Alpha Flight) was made simply because you disagreed with my logic, not because of any consensus made here. And I assure you that I can handle my share of criticism, but that does not justify you making negative comments directed at me personally. Please stick to discussing how we can work together towards the improvement of this article. Fortdj33 (talk) 13:44, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

How about referring to the Alpha Flight character with the disambiguatory (Alpha Flight), and the Age of Apocalypse character with (Age of Apocalypse)? Nightscream (talk) 03:23, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

I agree with that, it would solve the problem. Diego (talk) 07:00, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I still don't see what problem needs to be solved. I understand that there are other characters in the Marvel Universe named Nemesis, but all of them are already covered by other articles with their own disambiguation. The examples that Diego provided, do not demonstrate the need for further disambiguation of this article, unless more information is going to be added to it. Nemesis (Icon Comics) is about a title not a character, Nemesis (Ultraverse) is just a redirect to Infinity Gems, and Nemesis (Age of Apocalypse) would simply be a redirect to Holocaust (comics). Doctor Nemesis is the only other Marvel character that I see with "Nemesis" in the title of the article, but ALL of those links could easily be listed in a "See also" section of this article, and are already covered by the disambiguation page Nemesis (comics).

If it was necessary for this article to cover more than one Marvel character, then I could see the need for being more specific. But since this article only covers multiple versions of the same character, the disambiguation of "(Marvel Comics)" is sufficient. Fortdj33 (talk) 13:28, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

I understand that there are other characters in the Marvel Universe named Nemesis Well, this and only this is the situation that triggers the need a more precise disambiguator according to WP:PRECISION - the title isn't "precise enough to unambiguously define the topical scope of the article", since there are other topics outside this article that are also defined by "Nemesis (Marvel Comics)". The contents of Nemesis (Alpha Flight) are irrelevant at this point, what matters is what is outside of Nemesis (Alpha Flight). (I don't understand what you mean by all of them are already covered by other articles with their own disambiguation - are you referring to this DAB page?)

No, I'm referring to the fact that there is no information in this article that requires it to be more precise. The contents regarding the Alpha Flight character are completely relevant, because that is the only content in this article that we are discussing! Why do you feel that the title of this article needs to be changed, to differentiate it from other Marvel characters named Nemesis, when all of those characters already have articles with different disambiguation in their titles?

Nemesis (Icon Comics) is about a title not a character, Nemesis (Ultraverse) is just a redirect to Infinity Gems, and Nemesis (Age of Apocalypse) would simply be a redirect to Holocaust (comics) None of this matters to a reader using the titles to navigate to an article, though; when finding the content either through search or an internal link, what matters is that all those three articles contain information about Marvel Comics characters and/or comics that are named "Nemesis". This means that someone looking for them will be mislead by an article named Nemesis (Marvel Comics) that doesn't contain information about their wanted character. This is the reason why (Marvel Comics) is not precise enough - what matters is that it will guide readers to the wrong article, not that the target articles are placed directly under the ambiguous title or as a redirect.

ALL of those links could easily be listed in a "See also" section of this article, and are already covered by the disambiguation page Nemesis (comics) That would be a misuse of the "See also" section and disambiguation page. The request at WP:PRECISION to have unambiguous titles is there so that readers will find their desired content at the first try, not recovering after they've arrived to the wrong article lead by an ambiguous title that could also apply to other articles.

Frankly, I don't see why you're so attached to the (Marvel Comics) title. Nightscream above agreed that renaming the article is a good idea. If you still aren't convinced, the only thing we can do to help build consensus is to gather feedback from more readers, to assess whether the current article title is compliant with the guidelines and working well to help readers find what they want, or not. Diego (talk) 14:23, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

I guess the question is: what do you intend to do with the link Nemesis (Marvel Comics) if the title of this article is changed? If it will just redirect to Nemesis (Alpha Flight), then the title change serves no purpose. If it will just become a disambiguation page, that is already covered by Nemesis (comics). Fortdj33 (talk) 14:58, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm referring to the fact that there is no information in this article that requires it to be more precise Well, at least we agree to that. The information that requires this title to be more precise is not located in this article, is located outside of it. No article exists in a vacuum - a title disambiguation depends on all the information available throughout all Wikipedia and sometimes even outside of it, not only the article that gets the name. The crucial point is that (Marvel Comics) is a title that can describe that other information that is not located here. It would not be ambiguous only in the case that all those other articles were merged into this one, but that is not a viable option.

The best use for "Nemesis (Marvel Comics)" would be as a redirect to Nemesis (comics), since that DAB already contains all the links to all Nemesis in Marvel Comics articles. It would take some work to change everything that redirects here, but it's doable. Diego (talk) 16:44, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

You state: "The crucial point is that (Marvel Comics) is a title that can describe that other information that is not located here." That is where we disagree, because that information has already been separated into other articles with precise disambiguation. If those characters needed to be covered by Nemesis (Marvel Comics), that information would be included in this article. The fact that there are other characters named Nemesis that are not covered here, is already taken care of by the hatnote and disambiguation page that already exists. There is no need to change the title of this article, just to make that more obvious. Fortdj33 (talk) 17:12, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

That there are other articles named Nemesis that are not covered here is what makes this page not compliant with disambiguation policy; the hatnote and DAB are not enough to comply with PRECISION, which makes specific claims about the title that this one doesn't have. The title also fails the recognizability test - someone reading the title that knows Marvel Comics will not necessarily recognize that it's about the Alpha Flight superheroine, they could equally expect to find any of the other characters linked from the DAB. The other titles are fine, but this one is not. Four editors think this title should be used as a redirect, only you oppose. That should count as rough consensus and the article should be changed. Diego (talk) 22:19, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

This discussion has been primarily between you and me, and by my count only two other editors have offered their opinion: Nightscream, whose proposal agrees with yours, and Argento Surfer, who favors merging over changing the disambiguation. That is not a consensus, and I really wish you would work towards some type of compromise, instead of trying to make this into something personal. To be clear: I am not categorically opposed to making Nemesis (Marvel Comics) into a disambiguation page, but Wikipedia has guidelines for a reason, which is why this discussion is necessary before the title is arbitrarily changed. Your statement that "the hatnote and DAB are not enough" is purely your opinion, and you never answered the question of what you intend to do with the link Nemesis (Marvel Comics) if the title of this article is changed. If it will just redirect to Nemesis (Alpha Flight), then the title change serves no purpose. If it will just become a disambiguation page, I feel that is already covered by Nemesis (comics). Fortdj33 (talk) 02:23, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

You're right that it's a three-to-one and not four-to-one consensus, somehow I counted one comment twice. But it can count as rough consensus nevertheless (a single discordant position that is also based on personal preferences, not guidelines, is not strong enough to prevent consensus-building). My opinion that the title is ambiguous is mine (although it's according to the information available), but that "the hatnote and DAB are not enough" is right implied by WP:PRECISION - the title itself needs to be to be unambiguous, the peripheral navigation aids wont change that. Nightscreams shares the need to call this article with the (Alpha Flight) disambiguator, and Argento agrees with me to change Nemesis (Marvel Comics) into a redirect to Nemesis (comics). No one is suggesting to turn this page into a second DAB only for Marvel characters. (I had answered what to do with the link Nemesis (Marvel Comics) in my previous comment). If you still want a stronger consensus we can request comments at some relevant project pages and MOS talk pages. Diego (talk) 07:32, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

We seem to want the same thing here, but I don't understand why you keep trying to make this personal against me, instead of working together to disambiguate this article as clearly as possible. My opinion has been based on just as many Wikipedia guidelines as yours. The reason that this discussion was necessary in the first place, is because you started moving the title, before trying to come to a consensus. Be that as it may, I am willing to concede the change of this article to Nemesis (Alpha Flight) if the link Nemesis (Marvel Comics) is made into a disambiguation page. Nemesis (comics) is fine, but redirecting there doesn't really make it clear which characters are related to Marvel Comics and which ones aren't. What do you think? Fortdj33 (talk) 13:39, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Given how the whole article is essentially plot without real world info and minor nature of the characters, I would suggest skipping a debate on DAB and just merge this to List of Marvel Comics characters: N with a short entry for Nemesis DABing to individual links for the three women under their own name. This page could then be turned into a redirect to the Nemesis (comics) DAB page, which would need to be updated. Argento Surfer (talk) 15:49, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand why do you think I'm addressing this as a personal thing against you. You're the one who disagrees with the proposed change, so in order to build consensus I need to address your concerns explicitly, not because I have any personal grudge.

I am willing to concede the change of this article to Nemesis (Alpha Flight) if the link Nemesis (Marvel Comics) is made into a disambiguation page. Given that nobody has opposed that as a solution, that means we have a consensus now. I understand you expect to place in that DAB the links that were previously at the hatnote, plus a link to this (Aplha Flight) article? I'd want you to consider redirecting to Nemesis (comics) and have the Marvel Comics grouped there in a sub-section (as done in this edit that distributes links by publisher), but I won't oppose having them in a separate DAB specific to Marvel Comics. Diego (talk) 14:53, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, it's hard not to take it personally, when I've asked you to focus on the content, and you refer to my opinion as "a single discordant position that is also based on personal preferences, not guidelines". And once again, it's against the collaborative nature of Wikipedia, to ask another editor to "consider" a change, when the change has already been made. But yes, if the title of this article is to be changed to Nemesis (Alpha Flight), I would have preferred that Nemesis (Marvel Comics) become a disambiguation page, with links to the Alpha Flight, Ultraverse, Doctor Nemesis and Holocaust articles. I do not believe that Nemesis (comics) is large enough to warrant dividing it up into sub-sections. As it is, I suppose that the Marvel Comics link could just as easily redirect to that section. Please see WP:RM on how to propose the new article title, and then the link to the disambiguation page can be taken care of after that. Fortdj33 (talk) 17:08, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

I was just asking you to consider the redirect from Nemesis (Marvel Comics), not the grouping at Nemesis (comics); you're right that the grouping was already done by then, to illustrate how the target page of the redirect would look, and because I think hte structure of Nemesis (comics) is better with the grouping by publisher. I'll request the administrator to lift the move protection; otherwise this would require a new formal move discussion, since this no longer counts as an uncontroversial technical move. Diego (talk) 12:33, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

I'll change the redirect to Nemesis_(comics)#Marvel_Comics when I have time to disambiguation the links pointing to it. Diego (talk) 07:37, 8 March 2013 (UTC)