Talk:Sundown town

Citation 19

Citation 19 does not support the claim that "all black migration" was outlawed in Michigan, rather it specifies that proof of free-status be given, and a bond, one which would be extreamly difficult to pay be put up. Additionally the article discribes how these laws were never uniformly enforced. Something we should be unsuprised by as much oc the Midwest was a sparcely cover rural territory at the time, and the ability for the state to police the status of its black inhabitants was extreamly limited. 68.56.152.57 (talk) 14:23, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

"In the 21st century" section...

There are a number of issues with this section. It talks about "second-generation sundown towns," but doesn't give any sort of definition of what exactly constitutes one.

Furthermore, while the original definition of a "sundown town" was a community that had few or no non-White people, due to violence and intimidation to exclude them, the main example it gives of a (possible) "second-generation sundown city" is Ferguson, Missouri, which the same section informs us has a population that's more than three quarters Black, and that three quarters of the city council is also Black, so this hardly seems to be a community where Blacks are excluded.

Moreover, a section of the text of the article reads:

"A consent decree had prohibited racial profiling.[45] The terms of the consent decree prohibited activities that would categorize Ferguson as a second-generation sundown city. As of 2020, the consent decree has only been partially implemented, leaving Ferguson's status as a second-generation sundown city unclear.[46]"

But a simple word search reveals that neither citation 45 (the consent decree), nor citation 46 (the St. Louis Post-Dispatch article) mentions "sundown" at all, meaning that their inclusion is at best WP:Synth - i.e. Wikipedia connecting whatever definition of a "second-generation sundown town" some commentator has used with the analysis presented by the DoJ and Post-Dispatch, even though the latter two don't actually use the "sundown" label.

So either this section needs a complete rewrite, or it needs to be entirely eliminated. -2003:CA:871E:B1D:83E3:5F93:9CC9:B40D (talk) 16:10, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Update: The section also mentions issues in Chicago:

"In response to an increase in violent crime, Chicago enacted a 6:00 p.m. curfew for youths in May 2022 at Millennium Park.[47] The American Civil Liberties Union of Illinois said that the curfew would result in "unnecessary stops and arrests" of young black people, and Chicago Alderman Roderick Sawyer said that the curfew was "discriminatory" and would make black children feel that "they don’t belong in certain parts" of Chicago.[47]"

A quick text search of the AP article given as a citation though (#47) once again reveals that the article does not mention "sundown" at all, once again rendering the content WP:Synth. I've decided to be WP:Bold and go ahead and remove the parts of the section about Ferguson, MO and Chicago. Others are of course welcome to rewrite and/or expand this section if/when they find reliable sources which specifically discuss various modern day American communities as "sundown." -2003:CA:871E:B1D:83E3:5F93:9CC9:B40D (talk) 16:19, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

I appreciate your concern for avoiding synthesis of sources, and starting a discussion. But this set of issues has been previously discussed several times on this talkpage, with refs that it's still a phenomenon even today. A specific ref was even supplied that defines second-generation sundown town and says Loewen uses that label for Ferguson. So there's no synth for the general idea of that city being a second-generation sundown town as well as the way our article defines that concept. DMacks (talk) 18:09, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

With all due respect, none of the refs in the second two paragraphs of the section even mentioned "sundown," so this is a clear case of SYNTH. I had left the first paragraph, which does at least have refs discussing the concept. If you have a ref that uses the label specifically for Ferguson then it'd be reasonable to expand the section to note that some have made this claim, and to include a ref which specifically mentions Ferguson as an alleged example thereof. But for now I'm reverting your restoration of the completely unsubstantiated content.

I would also note that the section does not in fact provide any clear definition of what exactly a "second generation sundown town" is. To the extent one could be inferred, it would seem to be any locality where some sort of racial issue or another exists. -2003:CA:871E:B1D:83E3:5F93:9CC9:B40D (talk) 00:58, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

"discussed several times on this talkpage". See for example Talk:Sundown town/Archive 1#Present tense. DMacks (talk) 04:28, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

"Try That in a Small Town"

There is a content dispute about whether the song "Try That in a Small Town" by Jason Aldean, should be included in the "popular culture" section. My objection comes from the fact that nowhere in the song does it mention "sundown town", or make any reference to race. Two sources have been cherrypicked to support this edit:

• "Sundown Town", a non-notable parody song by Adeem the Artist.
• "Moms Demand Action", a non-notable advocacy group.

The input of other would be appreciated.

References

--Magnolia677 (talk) 18:08, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

WP:NOTABILITY is about whether something can be the subject of a standalone article, not whether it can be written about in other articles. Adeem the Artist's song "Sundown Town" has coverage in secondary sources, and Adeem himself is notable and has an article.

I haven't read around for other sources on this, but based on the ones given in the article it may be better (and I've edited it as such) to frame the paragraph as Adeem the Artist releasing a song called "Sundown Town" in 2023, and giving some context for why he did that. Belbury (talk) 18:20, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

@Belbury: Adeem the Artist is notable; his song isn't. You are welcome to add the song to Adeem the Artist's discography, but just because a song is "about something", does not automatically mean it should be added to the article it is about. Should "If I Were a Fish" be added to the article Fish? --Magnolia677 (talk) 19:48, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Agree with @Belbury: the invocation of notability fundamentally misunderstands en-wiki content policy. This should be included as we have reliable secondary source coverage. Innisfree987 (talk) 23:24, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

@Innisfree987: What are your reliable sources to support that "Try That in a Small Town" is about a sundown town (the title of this article)? The lyrics don't mention "sundown town", and race is not mentioned anywhere in the song. Do you have a source that specifically states the song is in fact about a sundown town? Or just opinions from angry activists who don't like the pro-gun theme, and have responded by labeling the song as racist? --Magnolia677 (talk) 23:33, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

You keep trying to move the goal posts but Wikipedia policies are what they are. I don’t need to prove it’s about a sundown town. Reliably sources have seen fit to cover those opinions. Fin. Innisfree987 (talk) 02:29, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

@Innisfree987: Again, please list your reliable sources to support that "Try That in a Small Town" is about a sundown town. Magnolia677 (talk) 10:17, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

The article isn't making that claim as a statement of fact. It's saying that some other people are quoted as describing it as that. This is reliably sourced. Belbury (talk) 10:28, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

The edit violates WP:WEIGHT, which states that "Generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all, except perhaps in a 'see also' to an article about those specific views." In this case, the views of a non-notable advocacy group, and a non-notable parody song, have been included because another song--which does not mention race or sundown towns--is in their opinion actually about a sundown town. Moreover, this undue coatrack has been added to a section titled "Sundown towns in popular culture", despite not meeting the inclusion criteria listed at MOS:POPCULT. Please discuss. Magnolia677 (talk) 20:01, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

WP:WEIGHT makes clear that reliable sources, not personal opinions of editors, are what determines the significance of a viewpoint. "Once it has been presented and discussed in sources that are reliable, it may be appropriately included." Likewise MOS:POPCULT: "A Wikipedia article may include a subject's cultural impact by summarizing its coverage in reliable secondary or tertiary sources." Innisfree987 (talk) 04:18, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

A cornerstone of our verifiability policy is WP:VNOT, which states "not all verifiable information must be included". In this case, a non-notable song, and a non-notable advocacy group, claim that Jason Aldean is racist, and their claim of racism is not based on anything measurably racist in the song he wrote. In the source cited to support the edit, it only claims, "This song is an ode to a sundown town, suggesting people be beaten or shot for expressing free speech". That isn't even what a sundown town is. Moreover, much of the criticism is that the song is "pro-lynching". To that Aldean stated, "There is not a single lyric in the song that references race or points to it – and there isn't a single video clip that isn't real news footage -and while I can try and respect others to have their own interpretation of a song with music- this one goes too far." Our WP:BLP policy sets a high standard for accusations of racism, and we must "be very firm about the use of high-quality sources". A parody song, and "Shannon Watts, the founder of the gun control advocacy group Moms Demand Action", are not high-quality sources. Magnolia677 (talk) 21:41, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

The reliable sources (currently cited) are Rolling Stone and the Seattle Times. More exist as well, like Variety and Paste Magazine. Surely you realize that on Wikipedia reliable sources refers to the outlet and not the people they cover. Innisfree987 (talk) 01:29, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

Please note that I posted this discussion at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Sundown town, and invited editors there to join this discussion. Magnolia677 (talk) 22:03, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

The song is race-baiting jingoism, that's undeniable. But the gist is saying you can't come from out-of-town and do the same things you do in the city and expect to get away with it. "Sundown town" is a reference to controlling one's own native, minority population. So, no, I think two allusions by non-notable individuals/groups do not amount to much. Zaathras (talk) 00:59, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

It’s not our place to give an interpretation of the song. The question is whether there is sufficient reliably sourced coverage of this point of view to include it. Innisfree987 (talk) 01:31, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

Innisfree987, the "source" isn't the newspaper that published this, the source is the person being quoted by the newspaper. Again, WP:VNOT cautions that not everything published in reliable sources is encyclopedic. Magnolia677 (talk) 08:33, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

• Include - The proposed text is In 2023, Adeem the Artist released the song "Sundown Town" as a reaction to Jason Aldean's "Try That in a Small Town" receiving criticism earlier that month. Moms Demand Action had called Aldean's song "an ode to a sundown town". which seems to accurately summarize the connection that reliable sources have drawn. There are plenty of sources to establish due weight, most of which mention Moms Demand Action or Adeem the Artist: Variety, CBC, Newsweek, Forbes, CBS. A gentle reminder: We go by what reliable secondary topics say about the topic, not our own analyses or the artist's own explanation. –dlthewave ☎ 12:42, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
• Don't include the commentary is about "Try That in a Small Town". "Popular culture" sections are generally garbage, the one in this article is (rightly) tagged as one, and this is a good example of why. The information about the parody or the Moms Demand Action stuff belongs in the article about the song. One song in one year does not a notable factoid to mention in a much larger topic with a much larger temporal and cultural reach. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 19:22, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
• Include as long as this sort of "in popular culture" section is going to exist here. There are a ton of sources connecting the song to the idea of a sundown town, but most of them are about the parody song. Belbury's edit to make the bulletpoint about the parody, referencing the song, seems like a good way to do this. At this point, there's a good case for the parody song to be notable (although given WP:NOPAGE I'm not saying someone should create a stand-alone article about it), and a notable song about the subject seems sensible to include. My !vote shouldn't be presumed to preclude restructuring that section and setting stricter inclusion criteria, though. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 23:49, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose - came from the NPOV board. This is what is described in the Essay WP:Recent. There is a controversy, there is a source, and editors place that controversy on every article that remotely touches on the subject. The news cycle blows over, it's removed from the main subject's article, but remains on a bunch of obscure articles it was added to that no one knows to go clean up. The guidelines we should be looking at are WP:EVENTCRITERIA. A release of a song or a parody song is an event. Is it going to have long lasting notability? Per WP:PERSISTENCE - is this going to have long-lasting coverage past one news cycle? Or it is "controversy of the week" and in two years, no one will care? And if I'm reading an article on Sundown towns, is that the kind of information I'm looking for? WP:Due and WP:Balance are also at play, and I'd say all these add up to "don't add it to this article". Denaar (talk) 15:50, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose for the same reasons as @Denaar, though with the note that if this is still a discussion in a month then it can be added. ~ Argenti Aertheri^(Chat?) 08:06, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
• Rewrite the entire section. Currently it's not clear which of these pop culture references are actually significant, but e.g. James Loewen's article "Sundown Towns on Stage and Screen" makes an interesting argument about the pop-cultural portrayal of sundown towns which would be much better treated in prose than the current random list. Having some sort of coherent prose narrative makes it much easier to judge which examples are in fact worthy of inclusion – and to help the section remain a coherent whole rather than a random assortment of examples without context. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 14:37, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. Here from NPOVN. The primary reason for opposing is the weak nature of the association. A few sources that say the song evokes the notion of likeness of a sundown town is a weak reason to include it in a section that should be including obvious examples. Second, there is an issue of reciprocity of weight. Articles about the song or reactions to the song establish weight for inclusion at the song's article not here. To establish weight here we need significant coverage of this topic that mentions the song. Do we have that? Springee (talk) 14:45, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
• Include, but give better sources. Plenty of reliable sources criticised the song specifically for evoking the notion of sundown towns, among other things. It's basically the only reason the song is even notable. 46.97.170.235 (talk) 09:51, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

LIFE-THREATENING misleading information in this article

The article acts like Sundown towns are pretty much a thing of the past. In reality, they still exist like nothing changed. Sure, the signs have been replaced by protest signs about “white genocide”, but other than that, not being absolutely white in such a place, e.g. as a tourist, is still pretty much a death sentence. Just like slavery (now known as for-profit prisons that are a major manufacturer of goods), the KKK never went away in the US. It just got a rebranding.
Having been to such a place, as a tourist, with my dad, it was NOT FUNNY. AT ALL. Seeing rednecks pull up in a pickup truck, with loaded shotguns!! (I thought the Top Gear scene was staged. Now I know from personal experience, it might not have been.) … My dad had been a war correspondent in Afghanistan, and can personally attest to it being less dangerous there right now with the Taliban, than in the US in the wrong town!
So unless you want people to literally die (hey, with Americans you never know…), I suggest you change the article to reflect actual reality, not just what the US wants to believe it is.
— 2A0A:A546:E1F:1:68AA:D18:8D58:4C54 (talk) 10:16, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Please provide a reliable source to support this. Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 13:42, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

2A0A:A546:E1F:1:68AA:D18:8D58:4C54 -- Classic "sundown towns" were rather open about it, often with signs at the city limits. What's the equivalent that you're claiming? AnonMoos (talk) 22:38, 9 October 2023 (UTC)