Talk:Terri Schiavo timeline/Archive 1

Centonze

are Gloria Centonze and Jodi Centonze related? and if so, how? Kingturtle 03:19, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I read somewhere that they are related (sisters, I think). it's been a hundred or more links since I read it though. I think it was an older magazine article about Terri. It was in the article that quoted Gloria as saying "he may be a bastard, but if I was sick I'd want him as my husband". Sorry I don't have a URL. 206.67.17.2 12:56, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

here it is [[1]]

Back in Florida, Michael enlisted family members to record audiotapes of their voices, which he played for Terri on a Walkman. He was fastidious about Terri's appearance, spraying her with Picasso perfume and outfitting her in stirrup pants and matching tops from The Limited. At one Florida nursing home, he was so demanding that administrators sought a restraining order against him. But Gloria Centonze, who worked there at the time (and by coincidence later married into the family of Michael's future girlfriend), recalls a frequent comment among the nurses: "He may be a bastard, but if I was sick like that, I wish he was my husband." To better care for Terri, Michael even enrolled in nursing school.

206.67.17.2 13:01, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The restraining order anecdote is strange. I've never found hard evidence of it, and, frankly, it doesn't seem plausible. Restraining orders are sought for threatening behavior, not for being a "demanding" customer. Also, Michael chose the facility; wouldn't you think that if he and they were so at odds that they sought a restraining order against him, he would have transferred her elsewhere?

Also, Michael's claim that he became a nurse to better care for Terri is not credible, because he actually was studying to become a respiratory therapist, and Terri didn't need respiratory therapy. It was many more years before he became a nurse. NCdave 17:59, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Comments by third parties

I'm not inclined to include in the timeline grandstanding statements by third parties. Tom DeLay's comments don't actually affect Terri. His calling Terri to testify did. If we put in every comment made by someone that mentions Terri, we'll blow the size limit in a heartbeat. I'd rather limit the timeline to actions that directly impact Terri. comments and grandstanding can go in the full text article about Terri. FuelWagon 15:31, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

that is a valid argument. Kingturtle 01:41, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Bulimia

Why doesn't this page mention bulemia? Efm

I suppose it could by quoting the actual medical records. --Viriditas | Talk 10:30, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Gambone

Timeline says:

1991

Dr. Victor Gambone, Terri Schiavo's primary care physician, concludes that she is in an irreversible persistent vegetative state (PVS).

That's untrue. Gambone wasn't hired as her doctor for another seven or eight years.

After M.Schiavo hired right-to-die activist George Felos as his attorney, to wage his legal battle to end Terri's life, Felos chose Gambone as Terri's physician.

I know facts don't mean anything to NCdave, but to anyone else who might happen to read this and wonder if its true: this report by Pearse, dated 9 December 1998, page 2, says: "the ward's current primary care physician, Dr. Vincent Gambone". So the wikipedia article is quoting legal documents. But in NCdave's mind, Pearse is in on the conspiracy. FuelWagon 17:34, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Gambone never provided Terri any meaningful "care." His initial examination of her lasted only about an hour; thereafter he saw her for only about ten minutes at a time, a few times per year. See [2]:

"Dr. Victor Gambone testified that he visits Terri 3 times a year. His visits last for approximately 10 minutes. He also testified, after viewing the court videotapes at Terri’s recent trial, that he was surprised to see Terri’s level of awareness. This doctor is part of a team hand-picked by her husband, Michael Schiavo, shortly before he filed to have Terri’s feeding removed. Contrary to Schiavo’s team, 14 independent medical professionals (6 of them neurologists) have given either statements or testimony that Terri is NOT in a Persistent Vegetative State."

Gambone is the doctor who fraudulently submitted the paperwork[3] certifying that Terri was terminal with a life expectancy of less than 6 months, to qualify her for transfer to the hospice (where none other than George Felos was Chairman of the Board[4]), and enable the hospice to collect payment for her care from Medicaid. NCdave 16:46, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

As to the "14 independent medical professionals", did they actually examine Terri? Or did they see video tape heavily edited by Terri's parents? You want to question Gambone's diagnosis because he spent an hour with her on his first exam and "only" ten minutes at a time, a few times a year, but did these 14 docs spend any time with Terri? Or do you pick and choose who you apply your requirements for a "good" examination? FuelWagon 17:47, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Well, that's changing the subject, from Gambone (who wasn't even Terri's doctor in the early 1990s), to the dubious PVS diagnosis. But, since you brought it up...

As noted by Sen. Frist, MD,[5] the physicians who spent the most time with Terri were the ones who said she was at least minimally conscious. The physicians who supported the PVS diagnosis spent very little time with her. Drs. Cranford and Greer each spent only 45 minutes or less with her, and Bambakidis[6] spent only about 30 minutes with her. In contrast, Dr. Cheshire spent about 90 minutes with her, and Dr. Hammesfahr spent ten hours with her, and both observed compelling evidence of consciousness.

PVS is a diagnosis which requires prolonged examination, because MCS is characterized by intermittant responsiveness. PVS cannot be reliably diagnosed in 45 minutes, because even brief intervals of responsiveness interspersed with long periods of unconsciousness are proof that a patient is not in a PVS. If a patient in a MCS is examined for only 30-45 minutes, the examiner cannot tell whether the patient is persistently unconscious.

As Dr. Frist points out, "it's a difficult diagnosis and one that takes a series of evaluations over a period of time because of fluctuating consciousness. And so I was a little bit surprised to hear that a decision had been made to starve to death a woman based on a clinical exam that took place over a very short period of time by a neurologist who was called in to make the diagnosis. It's almost unheard of."

Also, the number 14 is out of date. By the time of Terri's death, the number was up to "...something like 34 affidavits from other doctors who said that she could be improved with rehabilitation,"[7] plus several dozen more who had expressed their willingness to testify of sign affidavits disputing the PVS (mis)diagnosis.

Anyhow, I don't think that there can be any dispute about the fact that the timeline entry is nonsense. Right? NCdave 18:34, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Senator Frist? you meant the guy who appeared on "Justice Sunday" last month? The 90-minute simulcast over Christian radio and television networks, stumping the "culture of life"? Frist will say whatever he needs to say to get the Religious Right on his side for his 2008 campaign for presidency. Sorry, Frist is no neutral source, he's an opportunist. FuelWagon 18:47, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

FuelWagon, I know you don't like Dr. Frist, or the Culture of Life that he promotes. But he is a very highly credentialed and respected medical doctor, a heart-lung transplant surgeon, which is one of the most challenging specialties in the field of medicine.[8] He is no slouch, and no dummy. From a vita: "He graduated with honors from Harvard Medical School [in 1978]. He is board certified in both general surgery and heart surgery. While on the teaching faculty at Vanderbilt University Medical Center, he founded and subsequently directed the multi-disciplinary Vanderbilt Transplant Center."

Your ad hominem attacks on Dr./Sen. Frist are no rebuttal to what he said. What he said (in the quotes I used) is undeniably true, as was this, when he wrote it: "Terri is alive. She is not in a coma. Although there are a range of opinions, neurologists who have examined her insist today that she is not in a persistent vegetative state. She breathes on her own – like you on me. She is not on a respirator. She is not on life support of any type. She does not have a terminal condition. Moreover, she has a mom and father and siblings – her closest blood relatives – who love her, who say she is responsive to them, who want her to live, who will financially support her. These are the facts."[9] NCdave 19:57, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Bwhaaahahahaha! You becry my "ad hominem" attack in the same breath you invoke the "culture of life" crap? You're a hypocrit, except you're too clueless to even know it. You think "culture of life" proves anythign from a logical standpoint? no. so its ad hominem emotional hysteria. "Oooh, you must be a representative of the culture of death". You're a blatant hypocrit. Buzz off. Oh, wait. before you go, you finally answered my question in the end there with your quote from Frist: "her closest blood relatives ... who say she is responsive to them" HE IS BASING HIS "DIAGNOSIS" ON THE WORD OF THE SCHINDLERS. Yeah, baby, really reliable. I bow before the power of your selective objectivity. You can see dragons where there are windmills and Knights where there are pompus windbags. FuelWagon 20:18, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Nursing

This timeline says:

1991

Michael begins studying nursing at St. Petersburg Community College to better care for his wife. He eventually becomes a respiratory therapist and an emergency room nurse.

But that isn't correct, because:

1) He first became a respiratory therapist (not a nurse), so he presumably was studying respiratory therapy (not nursing).

2) Terri didn't require respiratory therapy, so Michael's claim that his motive was to better care for her is not credible. If he'd wanted to care for her, he would have studied something that would have been helpful to her.

3) By the time he went back to school to become a nurse, he'd already been forbidding rehabilitation and therapy for Terri for many years.

4) Despite his promise to do so (under oath, in the 1992 malpractice court), Michael never made any effort to bring Terri home and care for her himself.

5) Didn't we determine that he began his studies at the community college in 1992 or 1993? I'm not sure about this, but I recall that it was discussed heavily in Talk:Terri_Schiavo a while ago. NCdave 17:19, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Date therapy ended

This timeline says:

1991

July 19: Terri Schiavo is transferred to Sable Palms skilled care facility where she receives neurological testing as well as speech and occupational therapy until 1994.

But that isn't correct. She received no therapy of any kind in either 1993 or 1994, and very little after the autumn of 1991.[10] Her therapy ended because her parents ran out of money to pay for it (Michael was unemployed, and was being supported by Terri's parents). The malpractice award money was paid out in January, 1993, but Terri's therapy did not resume, because Michael refused to permit it. NCdave 17:33, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Whack a Mole

I'm not going to play whack-a-mole with you NCdave, but I will say this much: terrisfight.org is not a neutral site. That they say something is "fact" is does not justify you butchering this article. Unless you have a better source, forget it. FuelWagon 17:56, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Fuelwagon, I certainly hope that you are serious, that you are going to stop "playing whack-a-mole" (revert-on-sight).

But please also refrain from ad hominem attacks. Www.terrisfight.org is not neutral, but it is a reliable source, with a great volume of medical and legal documents and other information, run by people who indisputably and unambiguously loved Terri, and who sacrificed selflessly in her behalf. Terri's family and friends' love for her (i.e., their lack of "neutrality") does not in any way taint or discredit them. Rather, it is a testimony to their good character.

Wikipedia articles are supposed to be written from a neutral POV, but the sources of information need only be truthful. If we were to discard all non-neutral sources of information, then there'd be almost nothing left. NCdave 18:57, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Photos & Images

I'm curious if we should use photos and/or images to dress up the page. It seems the various subarticles should have a consistant look and feel. I'm particularly interested if we should insert the photos used in the main article in their appropriate chronological positions. Thoughts?--ghost 28 June 2005 15:50 (UTC)

Edits by 24.73.200.126

This User edited certain items regarding PVS v. MCS. Please review them in the history. I reverted because they appeared very POV. --ghost

Ghost, that's a very generous way of saying this editor is a partisan hack. FuelWagon 5 July 2005 14:42 (UTC)