Talk:To market, to market

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Songs

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Title[edit]

Due to overlappping edits, we now have multiple versions of the article which should be merged. The question arises as to the best title. The contenders include:

To market, to buy a fat pig - the first version which I got from an old Mother Goose which is cited as a source.

To market, to market - the first line of the oldest version recorded by the Opies. But note that they use the following title in their index.

To market, to market, to buy a fat pig - the title which seems to be the most common form.

All of these might be referenced in the lead and I will edit here accordingly. Redirects for the alternate versions will provide for them. The only issue is what the formal main name will be. The standard advice is to use the most easily recognized name. This seems to be the latter title. Colonel Warden (talk) 00:10, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As the person arguing for To market, to market the case is that:

it is the title in the most authoritive source (they use several titles in the 'first lines' index to distinguish them) and therefore arguably the most recognisable;

that there are various versions of the rhyme that do not include pigs and readers might be looking for those.

Clearly merger is indicated. The name settled upon will affect the way the article is organised, but that should be possible whatever is decided on, and alternative titles could appear in the first line. With redirects it should be possible to get around the other issues.--Sabrebd (talk) 00:32, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Having slept on the matter, here's my current thoughts. I have a lot of respect for the Opies - I was quite fascinated by their Lore and language of schoolchildren when I was myself in school. But the idea of authority is only helpful insofar as other sources follow this authority and it's not clear that they do. But we see from WP:NAME that brevity is a consideration as well as common usage. It was for this reason that I first selected the title To market, to buy a fat pig. So, I will accept the title To market, to market as it is, in effect, an abbreviated form of the most common usage. This is comparable with United States for United States of America, say. However, I would like the full edit history of the article merging and preserving as I take some pride in my early efforts and this record constitues our meagre wages for working here, per WP:GFDL. So, please support me in asking an admin to stitch the articles back together under your new title. This is done at WP:SPLICE, it seems. Ok? Colonel Warden (talk) 10:35, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I can't argue with that. Agreed.--Sabrebd (talk) 11:05, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Accuracy of early version[edit]

[Copied from my talkpage--SabreBD (talk) 08:28, 6 November 2011 (UTC)][reply]

The entry states the first recorded version is "to buy a plum bun," and this statement appears to come from the Opie's entry from their Oxford anthology. Further in that same entry, the timeline makes it clear that the first recorded (written) version that appears (following the allusion in the Italian Dictionary)is in the 1805 "Songs for the Nursery" as "to buy a penny bun." There is no documentation of "plum bun" being the actual first version, according to the information in the Opies' book, even though they use the "plum bun" version as the representative version of the rhyme. As is stated in the discussion, this is a discretionary decision (using "plum bun" as the representative version, with no documentation)that has not necessarily been reinforced by acceptance of it as being authoritative. If we only use the Opies' research and documentation of the historical versions, it is clear, from their entry that "to buy a penny bun" was the first RECORDED version. The entry should state this in the introduction, rather than including it at the end of the article, in a way that is accurate but perhaps confusing or misleading. Thank you.Mrsbray (talk) 06:50, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am using the source note in the "To market, to market" entry in the Opies' The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes to suggest that the introduction in the Wikipedia article that represents "to buy a plum bun" as the first recorded (written) version is unsupported, but that "to buy a penny bun" is supported as being first recorded. Given both the documentation, and the long English history of market controls on the price, quality, weight of bread (see "penny bun" entry in wikipedia, and perhaps highlight the term within this article), the use of penny bun seems more consistent in a rhyme about the iconic marketplace experience. I have a link to the printed page of "Songs for the Nursery," and it is identical to the Opies' record, and is presented without a title in a two-line couplet (not a four-line stanza). Uncertain if this is the place to provide the link, or if it is necessary since it confirms Opies' notes, but it could be additional source/documentation for presenting "to buy a penny bun" as first recorded version (with Opies' Dictionary). Hope for consensus among existing editors, and many thanks. http://www.archive.org/stream/songsfornursery00londiala#page/8/mode/2up Mrsbray (talk) 00:10, 7 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

NOTE: the link connects to an 1808 edition of "Songs for the Nursery;" Library of Congress confirms appearance in 1806 edition in their possession, but I cannot locate an 1805 edition for confirmation, so 1805 date relies on Opies' documentation. Mrsbray (talk) 00:58, 7 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We should focus upon Florio's couplet as the first recording as it comes so much earlier than the rest. Its form - "home againe, home againe / market is done" is common to all versions and so nicely avoids the problem of stating exactly what was bought. Warden (talk) 06:04, 7 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree Florio's couplet is the common ancestor of all subsequent versions as an abridged allusion, but believe the first recorded use of the iconic "To market" language bears mention, since we have supporting documentation, and because the rhyme is invoked worldwide by the "To market" language. The first known recorded version might be useful to include, or at least not omit. Mostly looking to correct the statement that "to buy a plum bun" is first recorded use of rhyme's "To market" version, but not necessarily by omitting first documented known record of "to buy a penny bun." Thank you. Mrsbray (talk) 07:44, 7 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Would existing editors be agreeable to editing the introduction by using the couplet from "Songs for the Nursery" in the introduction, as follows:

"The version first recorded makes no reference to a pig:

To market, to market to buy a penny bun

Home again, home again, market is done.[3]"

The existing footnote in current version references the Opies' Oxford Anthology, which may stand as it verifies this version as the first recorded in the 19th Century. At present, it seems to read that plum bun pre-dates the 19th century. The line "When the rhyme reappeared in the nineteenth century, it took the now common form:" might be replaced by the line from below "There have been many variations:" with subsequent variations indicated. Thank you. Mrsbray (talk) 23:54, 8 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am unable to correct footnote 1 that is incorrect. That source does not contain the first recorded version ("to buy a pennybun"). The first recorded version is not digitized but the 1808 version is and this should replace footnote 1 which does not contain any reference to the "TO MARKET" rhyme at all. This is the only digitized version of SONGS FOR THE NURSERY which contains the first complete recorded version of the rhyme https://archive.org/details/songsfornursery00londiala/page/8/mode/2up?q=penny+bun I am hopeful someone can correct the erroneous reference for footnote 1. SONGS FOR THE NURSERY is the only correct source. The Library of Congress has a copy of the 1905 edition but it is not digitzed; they provided the 1805 digitized version, with the remark that the book was very popular. Thank you. Mrsbray (talk) 05:23, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies for the typo "1905" which should read "1805" edition of SONGS FOR THE NURSERY. The present reference in the present entry as of today 8/10/23 is incorrect: Elmendorf, Lawrence (1919) The Boyd Smith Mother Goose. G.P. Putnam's Sons does not contain the rhyme in any version except something to do with "Riding to market" and does not include the penny bun and should be replaced but I am unable to complete the edit. This is the correct source https://archive.org/details/songsfornursery00londiala/page/8/mode/2up?q=penny+bun Mrsbray (talk) 05:29, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]