Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Equestrian statue of Edward Horner/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Sarastro1 via FACBot (talk) 10:32, 23 February 2018 [1].

Equestrian statue of Edward Horner[edit]

Nominator(s): HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 12:29, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This one is a little unusual. It's still a war memorial, of sorts, and still Lutyens, but instead of commemorating the efforts of a village or a city or a regiment, it commemorates one individual. I was initially doubtful that there would even be enough to write about one monument in a church in a tiny Somerset village; I certainly wasn't expecting a 2,000-word piece that I'd be bringing here. As it turns out, it's covered in almost all the books about war memorials and several about British society during the First World War. I'd originally planned for this to follow its sister article, Mells War Memorial, but it wasn't quite ready when that one passed FAC. I've given it a quick polish and added a couple of details and I have a gap now so here I am. I hope you like it, but all feedback will be warmly received! Thank you, HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 12:29, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Images are appropriately licensed. However, I'm seeing some odd line breaking in |artist= in the infobox, and I'm not sure "equestrian" should be capped in the lead sentence. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:29, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • @Nikkimaria: two images added here and here and image layout also tweaked. Letting you know so the images can be reviewed, but maybe wait and see if any further changes are made, and if these changes stick? Also, does this fix the line-breaking in the infobox? Carcharoth (talk) 03:03, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Galobtter[edit]

  • "south-western england" Quite rare term, as far as I can see, either "South West England" or just "England" would be better
  • "sculpture executed by Alfred Munnings" is there a more common word to replace "executed" in the case of sculpting - like crafted, carved, fashioned something like that? searching and executed is rarely used alongside sculpture
  • "Edward Horner was the only surviving son and heir of Sir John and Lady Frances Horner of Mells Manor and a member of an extended upper-class social group known as the Coterie..." Lots of ands, far too many of 'em
  • "Shortly after the war broke out, he was a yeomanry officer in the part-time Territorial Force" should either be "became" not "was" or "he was a yeomanry officer in the part-time Territorial Force when the war broke out"
  • "On 19 August 1914, he was commissioned as a second lieutenant in the North Somerset Yeomanry, a part-time Territorial Force unit with no obligation to serve abroad. At the outbreak of the First World War in August 1914, his regiment was ordered to Hampshire for training." The war started in general before few days before August; I assume the commissioning had something to do with the war?; the sentences don't make much sense to me
  • "As well as dozens of public war memorials in towns and cities across Britain, Lutyens designed several private memorials to individual casualties, usually the sons of friends or clients. Many were heirs to the country houses Lutyens had built earlier in his career, as in Mells where he renovated the manor at the beginning of the 20th century. His work in Mells arose through his friend and collaborator Gertrude Jekyll, who introduced him to the Horners through a family connection. Lutyens established a friendship which led to multiple commissions in the village. As well as his work on the manor, he redesigned its gardens and worked on several related buildings and structures, and after the war was responsible for a tribute to Raymond Asquith (Edward's brother-in-law, also located in St Andrew's Church) and the village's own memorial. As well as the statue, Lutyens designed two others memorials to Horner—a wooden board featuring a description of the events leading up to his death, which was placed on a wall in the..."
  • "He was wounded in May 1915 and did not return to the war until early 1917. He was assigned a staff post but again secured a transfer to the front line." repetitive - "He was wounded in May 1915 and did not return to the war until early 1917. Initially assigned a staff post, he again secured a transfer to the front line."

In general repetitiveness in the prose could be helped by varying sentence structure Galobtter (pingó mió) 13:07, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment from Noswall59[edit]

This monument appears to be a touching tribute to the waste of life involved in WWI. But it also strikes me as a monument born out of privilege and commemorating the death of an upper-class soldier, contrasting with many of the more egalitarian memorials put up after WWI; I am not sure I've seen anything quite like it. I wonder whether any authors have talked about it in the context of social class? It is interesting too that the villagers were not keen on the monument being put inside the church, which may be linked to class as well: do you have anymore details on that? (Also, if you know the blazon of the coat of arms, it could be added as a note). Cheers, —Noswall59 (talk) 13:59, 17 January 2018 (UTC).[reply]

Comments from Carcharoth[edit]

An excellent article. Delving into various obscure corners again:

  • It should be fairly easy to get a photo of the sculpture mould at the Munnings Art Museum (though it is closed until Easter now). That would be a nice addition to the article.
  • Similarly, a photo of it in its original position, or failing that, an indication of where the reader can find such a photo if they want to see it as it appeared in its original location.
  • Have the original design drawings been published anywhere? (glimpse here) And found the images in the RIBA library here and here.
  • The reference to this other memorial to Horner in the church really needs more. This (oak) wooden board. Either a photo, or a quote from the inscription. The best sources I could find on the wooden board are: [2] and [3]. If you think quotes from the wooden board will overwhelm the article, maybe put them in footnotes?
  • The stone tablet in Cambrai Cathedral is relevant and would be nice to include as well. But that will likely be difficult! Any chance of a quote from the Cambrai tablet?
  • Looking on Google Books, there do seem to be some academic sources not used yet. Will try and give examples.
  • Several sources mention the comments made by novelist Anthony Powell describing the statue as an 'Arthurian knight from the pages of Tennyson, riding out on his charger'. This really needs including in the article. See also here, referencing his memoirs (To Keep The Ball Rolling - TKBR).
  • Similarly, see here for a mention of the Horners and their social context in At Duty's Call: A Study in Obsolete Patriotism (1991) by W. J. Reader. (Reader's comments are taken further in 'Masculinities in Victorian Painting' (1995) by Joseph A. Kestner - see page 213).
  • Reader's book is precisely what I had in mind - it recognises the class-inflected context of the monument and highlights how it reflects a certain romantic heroism which was usually eschewed by the 1920s in war narratives (and in memorials). —Noswall59 (talk) 08:51, 18 January 2018 (UTC).[reply]

Carcharoth (talk) 04:51, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: I have made these edits to the article to add material on the Mells wooden memorial board. The sourced commentary from Reader justifies quoting the full inscription, IMO. It would be nice to have a similar note on the Cambrai tablet and its wording (I suspect it will have been in French), arranged by Hilaire Belloc, but I am not holding my breath as it is very difficult to find anything on this. The closest I got was this webpage with photo of the tablet Belloc erected to his own son, placed opposite the tablet to Edward Horner.
Reviewing the comments I made here and on the article talk page, the only item left that I would say is essential is to try and get hold of a copy of the autobiography volume by Munnings The Second Burst (1951), as this contains a brief chapter (pp.40–44) on the statue (Chapter III: The Horner Statue). I suppose it could go in further reading if not considered essential. I may add that now. Carcharoth (talk) 04:26, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Added a bit more. Diff of the extra additions and the above edits is here. I am not intending to add anything more now. Carcharoth (talk) 05:41, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I was a part of the A-Class nomination, can find no further room for improvement. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 14:04, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nicely written, happy to support, just a couple of comments. Firstly the article doesn't mention that the statue breaks the Equestrian_statue#Hoof-position_symbolism as the front hooves are both down despite him dying from battle wounds. surely someone has publicly commented on that anomaly? Secondly I've uploaded some more images from the geograph, I would reckon that this is an article that would benefit from a gallery - if only of the statue from different directions. Also I'm not sure, but if File:St Andrews Mells - Memorial window (geograph 5454430).jpg is the stained glass window referred to in "The statue originally faced a stained-glass window featuring a Madonna and Child, creating the image of Horner riding towards the light." then it would be worth including, but though it was presumably in the Horner chapel and is of the Madonna, it was installed in 1927 so the "originally faced" bit may not be quite true. Also as you know I'm old enough to remember buying beer at 37p a pint, but a £1,000 in 1920 was a lot more money than then let alone what it is today - a x in 201?? values line would be helpful. ϢereSpielChequers 18:01, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • I thought the 'raised hoof/ves' was an urban myth? - SchroCat (talk) 18:09, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • This came up at the MILHIST A-class review. Opinions differed there as well. Carcharoth (talk) 22:35, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
        • I can't find any reliable sources that say "this is true", and most say "common lore", "folk wisdom", "persistent legend" or similar. If there was a grain of truth in it, it would come up in some sources, but everything points the other way. Regardless of the bigger picture, if none of the sources that deal with the Horner statue mention it, then we probably shouldn't make the stretch either. - SchroCat (talk) 08:23, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • One of the images was poor quality (huge amounts of noise), so I removed the image, and then removed the gallery as the image of the memorial and the wooden board really needs to be a full thumbnail, rather than in a gallery. I tried including the coat-of-arms detail as part of a multiple image array (of two images). Maybe that will work. Image layout is difficult at the best of times. Might be best to wait and see what Harry thinks. If a gallery is used, the new 'packed' gallery mode (examples at Manchester Cenotaph and Rochdale Cenotaph) is much nicer than the standard gallery mode. Carcharoth (talk) 23:32, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sources review[edit]

All sources are in good order and of appropriate quality and reliability. Brianboulton (talk) 22:52, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support Just one point to address, which will not affect my support: In the Commissioning section you refer to St Andrew's Church, but don't say where it is until the opening line of "Design and history". Probably best move "in Mells" up to the first mention. I also see the church is linked in the lead, but not in the body; is that deliberate? That's it – another very nicely written piece indeed. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 18:12, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support from KJP1[edit]

A very well-composed article on a very moving monument. Having read it through, nothing to stand in the way of Support, but some comments for consideration below:

Lead

  • "As well as Horner's memorial, he designed a memorial to Raymond Asquith (also in St Andrew's Church), and Mells War Memorial in the centre of the village." - Perhaps, "As well as Horner's monument, he designed a memorial to Raymond Asquith (also in St Andrew's Church), and Mells War Memorial in the centre of the village", to avoid the thrice repeated memorial, which appears again in the next sentence. "Monument" is the term used by Pevsner. Or perhaps; tribute, shrine, tomb?
  • "the renowned equestrian painter and war artist Alfred Munnings" - Munnings is bluelinked in the para. above.

Biography

  • "The family was reputed to be descendants of "Little Jack Horner"" - the noun/verb agreement reads oddly to me. Perhaps, "The Horners were..." or "The family was reputed to descend from ....?
  • "Sir John was a London barrister and later commissioner of woods, for which he was knighted in 1908" - the London Gazette gives his KCVO as 9th November 1907.
  • "his condition was so grave that his parents were given special permission to visit him" - if this bit would benefit from a source there's quite a nice one in Cynthia Asquith's diary; ""...made enquiries about poor Edward. It sounds very, very bad - wounded in the groin in an explosion, and Sir John, Frances and Katherine have all gone out which would never be allowed unless his condition was critical, as Boulogne is now a war area and they are very strict." (The Diaries of Lady Cynthia Asquith 1915-1918, ed. L.P.Hartley, 1987, Century, p=17).

Commissioning

  • "Sir Edwin Lutyens was among the most distinguished architects for war memorials in Britain. He became a nationally renowned designer of war memorials following his work as an adviser..." - Sir Ed is already linked twice, in the infobox and the lead, so not sure he needs a third (see also Munnings below). The two sentences seem to repeat a little, and surely he was the most distinguished, I can't think of a rival? Perhaps something like, "Sir Edwin Lutyens was the most distinguished architect of war memorials in Britain. He had attained national renown following his work as an adviser ..."?

Design and history

  • "The Horner family had a long association with the church, which shares a wall with the manor house" - I think it shares a garden wall, but this sounds to me like they stand in direct proximity which I don't think is right, [4].

Notes

  • "These words were described by historian W. J. Reader..." - perhaps, "These words were described by the historian W. J. Reader..."

The above for consideration only and thanks indeed for a delightful article. KJP1 (talk) 10:39, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. I notice that Raymond's grave in France carries the same inscription as Edward's, [5]. Was it some kind of standard wording? KJP1 (talk) 10:48, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I am glad someone else has noticed the inscriptions are the same! (This came up in the A-class review.) I doubt (given the family connections) that it is a coincidence. The Imperial War Graves Commission did (as far as I know) provide the bereaved with a set of standard inscriptions to chose from (mostly biblical and/or ones popular at the time), but this would not have been one of them. Unfortunately, it seems no-one has yet picked up on it. There are a number of sources that write on Great War epitaphs, such as Epitaphs of the Great War, and the person running that site (who has recently published two books on the topic) mentions earlier works such as On Fames's Eternal Camping Ground, Epitaphs in the British Cemeteries on the Western Front (2007). But there are so many epitaphs that it is possible that some allusions and connections and cross-references simply have not yet been picked up on. If I find out more, I'll be sure to add details. Carcharoth (talk) 20:11, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes - it threw me when I first saw it, and I assumed I, or somebody, must have made a mistake. But no. I should have read the A-class review first! It would certainly be interesting to know more. As you say, it is a striking coincidence, if coincidence it is. KJP1 (talk) 07:32, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Carcharoth - Doing a little research for Bateman's, I read that Kipling chose the "known unto God" phrase that is used so frequently. I wonder if the "this star of England" line had a similar origin? KJP1 (talk) 10:02, 18 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Kipling was literary advisor to the IWGC and thus was largely responsible for the general phrases used on Commission memorials (as well as other written materials), but would not have been responsible for any of the individual epitaphs on the graves of soldiers. These (where desired) were chosen by the next-of-kin, who signed and returned forms sent to them for this purpose. If you look at the CWGC records for Horner (see line for headstone number 130) and Asquith (see line for headstone number 8), both available online, the next-of-kin are named as Sir John Horner (his father) and Mrs Raymond Asquith (his widow) respectively. Unless the reasons for or origins of a particular epitaph have been mentioned in secondary or primary sources (which is rare), it is next to impossible to say more. Carcharoth (talk) 11:35, 18 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Fascinating, many thanks. I've not seen these records before. I must see if I can find my mother's Uncle Horace, killed and buried in Jerusalem in 1917. She's always wanted to know more about his grave. KJP1 (talk) 21:38, 18 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Closing comments: This has three supports, as well as an implied support from WereSpielChequers and no objections after a detailed review from Carcharoth, so I think we are ready for promotion. Some alt text would be nice, but is not an explicit FA requirement and does not need to delay promotion. Sarastro (talk) 10:31, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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