Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2006 September 8

< September 7	Language desk archive	September 9 >

Humanities Science Mathematics Computing/IT Language Miscellaneous Archives

The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions at one of the pages linked to above.

< August September October >

September 30

Words invented in the last 50 years germaine to 4th graders

Please provide any cogent words germaine to a fourth grade class project in New England. List words that did not exist prior to 1956. No proper names please.

Thanks.

Note: Germaine is a proper name. The adjective you want is germane. JackofOz 01:20, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I guess that depends a bit on your exact idea of what is germane for a 4th-grade project. Words that instantly come to mind are "internet" plus any number of terms related to communications technology and computer games (the avreage fourth grader will probably not know what ping or DNS means, but words like "adventure", "shooter" (both in the video game sense), "joystick" or "google" (as a verb) wil be instantly recognizable to them). There has also been a marked influx of elements from Japanese culture in the last decades, along with many words that will be recognizable to 10-year-olds (stuff like "manga", "anime", etc which certainly were not part of the English language in 1956 but are pretty commonplace today). Then there's stuff like "AIDS" and a huge number of political terms that reflect the change in world politics in the last 50 years, but it might be difficult to find terms the average fourth grader can relate to -- Ferkelparade π 01:30, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

You might be interested in the Benoit College Mindset List. [1]. Each year they list things that are new to, or alien to, the experiences of that years' graduating class. Some of these will involve words that have been invented or changed meaning. For example, for this years' graduates, "Cyberspace has always existed, Barbie has always had a job, A "Hair Band" is some sort of fashion accessory, Mrs. Fields' cookies and Swatch watches have always been favorites, Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) has always been available to doctors, adn Hip-hop and rap have always been popular musical forms". For 2002 graduates, "Their lifetime has always included AIDS, They never had a polio shot, and likely, do not know what it is, They have never owned a record player, They may never have heard of an 8-track, and chances are they've never heard or seen one, They were born the year Walkmen were introduced by Sony, and There has always been MTV, and it has always included non-musical shows." -Nunh-huh 02:35, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

It also depends on what your meaning of "invented" is. Dishwasher used to only be a profession, broadcast had a completely different meaning before radio, and "instant messenger" is a term that constitutes preexisting words for a new meaning. AEuSoes1 05:08, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. I had to look it up to make sure that you were using germane properly -- you were not -- you misspelled it. --Proficient 06:28, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Err ... I think I made that point 3 days ago.  :--) JackofOz 20:38, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

"Run out on a rail"

Does anyone know the origin of this phrase? I can't seem to find anything through my mad Google-fu. Dgies 02:38, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

"Run out of town on a rail". Said of someone who's been chased away from a place in disgrace. (I think the rail in question was a part of a fence.) - Nunh-huh 02:43, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Surprise...Riding the rail. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 02:56, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

If you watch the excellent film O Brother, Where Art Thou?, there's someone (literally) run out of town on a rail at the end. Ziggurat 03:03, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

That's why I was asking. I was wondering if that was the origin or if they were just being dramatic. Dgies 03:58, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Apparently it's something that people actually did: including Benedict Arnold. Ziggurat 04:05, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd assume back then that the most reliable way to run to the next port of civilization would be to follow the rails. It's a lot smarter than "running out of town into an uncharted desert".  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  07:35, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Here's an excerpt from Mark Twain's Adventures of Huckleberry Finn that should help you visualize being "run out on a rail" (a rail being a wooden post):

"here comes a raging rush of people with torches, and an awful whooping and yelling, and banging tin pans and blowing horns; and we jumped to one side to let them go by; and as they went by I see they had the king and the duke astraddle of a rail--that is, I knowed it WAS the king and the duke, though they was all over tar and feathers, and didn't look like nothing in the world that was human--just looked like a couple of monstrous big soldier-plumes."

A rather ignominious and painful castigation, to be sure!Jhiga 20:25, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

solfege

where can I find three facts about solfΠège?

You can probably find a whole lot more at solfège. This is an encyclopedia. :) DirkvdM 05:56, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

10 Wikidollars that was a homework question.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  07:32, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

• Why are you throwing with your Wikipedia:WikiMoney? You can use it for much more useful stuff than betting... ;) - Mgm|^(talk) 08:03, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

You can? Please suitly emphazi! Luigi30 (Taλk) 12:19, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh don't patrozine.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  13:12, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm using it as an incentive to get people to write good articles. Unfortunately, no bites yet. - Mgm|^(talk) 18:39, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Would you dare offering it in advance? How much do you have? @_@ 惑乱 分からん 01:36, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

German Translations

What is the german translation for "favorite TV show"

Bevorzugte Fernsehschau? DirkvdM 05:45, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Lieblingsfernsehsendung ---Sluzzelin 05:48, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Sounds much better. DirkvdM 05:57, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually I feel clueless on German orthography these days and feel tempted to abuse this space and opportunity to rant against the German spelling reform, the reform of the reform, and the reform of the reform of the reform.---Sluzzelin 06:56, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

What could be more positively splendid than a spelling reform?  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  13:10, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Spelling used to be one of the few simple things about the German language. Now the grammar remains complicated and the spelling has become chaotic (between people adopting and rejecting the reforms). Durova 13:42, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I do like it when a deliberate choice is made to include such oddities in a language as triple letters, like in Schifffahrt. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 02:09, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

And did anyone see the recent Diktat on RTL? They discussed the word 'Helllicht' - the general feeling was 'I know it's right, but it's ugly'

Let me try my hand a at spelling reform. r-e-f-o-r-m. How did I do? DirkvdM 07:18, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

You handled the spelling all right but I think you need a grammar reform.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  16:39, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Damn, that was a typo. It seems I was so focused on getting that one word right that I ignored the rest. DirkvdM 06:04, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

animals

pl. help me to find out how young animals and birds are called? e.g. young dog is puppy and young. lion is cub. what about other animals/birds are called? thank you.

Check out WP's list of animal names.---Sluzzelin 07:52, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Opposite word

What is the opposite word to misanthrope?

Misanthrope comes from Greek misanthropos meaning hating humankind. Since anthropos is humankind and philos means love, I would venture to say that a philanthrope or something along those lines is the antonym for misanthrope. Disclaimer: I am not an expert schyler 12:36, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Philanthropist is probably what you want. --Ptcamn 15:32, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Check out Wiktionary. Altruist is another option. Btw, a misantrhopist is "a person who hates all mankind; a person who hates the human race" and a misanthrope is "an individual who hates society and people in general". Is there really a subtle difference or was there a communication breakdown at Wiktionary? DirkvdM 07:27, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I can sense no subtle difference with my extremely sensitive native speaker antennae.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  16:37, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Being a non-native speaker (alien antennae), I am not going to correct the English Wiktionary. You do it. DirkvdM 06:08, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Writing dictionaries is scary business. You risk challenging the very foundations of extremely picky peoples' beliefs. That being said, even after I changed it, Wiktionary:misanthropic and Wiktionary:misanthropy all have slightly different definitions, though meaning the same thing. Chaos!  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  08:41, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

polish virtuti militari 2 corps divisions award recipients

I tried to see if my fathers name of andrzej skalka was included in the award recipients of the polish second corps division during the second world war in the batle of bologna in Italy during the second world war which I have his medal. Why is he not listed?

Which list are you referring to? P.S. Til next time, please write several, shorter sentences or split the clauses with commas... 惑乱 分からん 13:56, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is created by all its thousands of editors. If you have found something lacking in an article, please improve it. Have a look at Welcome, newcomers. ColinFine 23:11, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

'Archival' as a noun

I'm interested to hear informed opinions regarding the use of 'archival' as a noun. For example: "Send that videotape to the library for long term archival." In this sense, we are trying to convey more than simple storage. We are attempting to imply catalog, preservation and storage in a manner optimized for re-use.

Do you consider this acceptable usage? dpotter 20:54, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

• What's wrong with "archival storage" or "archiving"? --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 04:50, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

It sounds more like spoken office slang than something which would be used in ordinary expository written English. AnonMoos 14:23, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

• No, I would go with either of Jpgordon's suggestions. According to various dictionaries 'archival' is an adjective, not a noun. - Mgm|^(talk) 18:37, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

To me your quotation is completely normal and unexceptionable, and has exactly the connotation you suggest. I regard the word as an abstract noun, like 'rehearsal', 'renewal' and 'committal': I am surprised to find dictionaries listing it as an adjective only, since I cannot think of a context in which I would use it adjectivally. (I would construe 'archival system' as 'system for archival'). I wonder if this is a dialectal question? I am in the UK. ColinFine 23:19, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestions. I've substituted "archiving," as I am attempting to maintain proper word usage in this document. I spoke with some associates, who agreed that the usage I suggested "sounded natural" although I suspect that this may be professional jargon from my industry. For those interested in dialect, I am a broadcast professional in the USA. dpotter 17:59, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I would prefer "Send that videotape to the library for inclusion in the archives" and simply avoid the whole issue. Also, library archiving generally implies long-term so...

Translation for Change

I am looking for a Symbol in any language to describe aspects of change. I am looking for a one, or few, character symbol or word. The translation of the word change is vague I know, so to better describe what I'm looking for here are some phrases to relay the essence of my thought;

to cease a behavior in trade for a better one, the natural evolution of, benefit with growth

… a more neutral translation can be given though the general good in change is a part of what I seek.

Also, from a far eastern perspective, there lies a connection with the Taoist “way” of change. I have heard of an Arabic symbol in the shape of a shooting star that may have some relevance to the meaning as well. Thank you

§€‡Ħ

Δ (or δ) are the only ones that come to my mind. Λυδαcιτγ 00:10, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Just what I was thinking. See Delta (letter). User:Zoe|(talk) 02:09, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

A lowercase "d" is also used for "delta". StuRat 02:22, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

That's just change. He is looking for improvement (no pun). DirkvdM 07:31, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Why do you feel it necessary to point out that you have made no pun?  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  16:34, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

You could look at Blissymbols to possibly get a few ideas. Traditional far-eastern philosophies are not usually known for giving prominence to the idea of collective forward progress. The crescent plus star (usually with more than five points before the 20th-century, with five points since the 20th century) has been used as a kind of symbol of the Ottoman Empire and/or Islam, and 5-pointed stars without crescents appear on various Arab flags, but I don't know of any exact association with what you're looking for. 14:18, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

You can use an arrow --> to signify change. "Blue --> Red", as if the color blue on a screen changed or transitioned to red. --Proficient 06:30, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

The most universally recognized symbol for "change" is, as mentioned, the Greek letter delta (Δ). That seems to me by far the most obvious symbol to use, as it's recognized around the world as the "symbol" that represents change. It may be Eurocentric, but it's recognized throughout the world. As an example, even a Chinese or an Indian mathematician or scientist would use the Δ sign to represent change. If that doesn't answer your question, then I'm not sure what your question is. Loomis 21:57, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Is "funnily" a proper English word?

I've always avoided using the word "funnily" (I'm not sure if I'm even spelling it correctly) as, though it doesn't seem to break any of the basic rules of English that I know of, it just feels extremely sloppy to use, and for some reason I can't really identify, it just doesn't sound like a proper English word. Yet I've heard it used on occasion by some rather intelligent people. Eg.: "I looked up the word "dictionary" in the dictionary, and "funnily" enough, it wasn't there". Is "funnily" a word?

A related question: Does it violate any rule in the English language to use two (or more) adverbs sequentially? I often find myself doing that, but something feels wrong about it. Again, it feels sloppy, but doesn't seem to violate any rule that I know of. Eg.: "She "seemingly easily" arrived at a solution to a problem that had confounded the rest of us". Or even worse: "The age of a tree is "generally rationally proportionately" related to its size". I know that last one could easily be rewritten in a far less "sloppy" sounding manner, such as: "Generally speaking, a tree's age is quite rationally proportionate to its size". (I'm also no plant biologist, so please ignore the issue as to whether the statement is true or not!) Is there any "rule" in the English language prohibiting the sequential use of adverbs?

Thanks! Loomis 21:24, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Funnily is a perfectly fine word, and it appears in Merriam-Webster's 11th Collegiate Dictionary. I'm not sure how often it's used without being followed by "enough".... Certainly you don't have to use it if it annoys you! As to adverbs, I don't think it's the part of speech that's the problem, but the repeated "-ly" endings. You probably wouldn't object to "rather easily" or "somewhat shabbily". - Nunh-huh 23:08, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I find that using "-ly" adverbs sequentially sounds rather poetic. "The man smoothly(,) quietly slips down the alley." I'll admit it's the slightest bit awkward, but not entirely damnable, I would hope. As for rules for sequential adverb order, yes, they exist, but as with adjectives (Adjective#Adjective_order), I imagine they're rather complex when formerly thought out, and it'd probably be best something you let time teach to you.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  16:31, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Funnily, funnily, funnily, funnily, life is but a dream. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 21:21, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Double "ly" adverbs sound cool. --Proficient 06:31, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I've been practising Percy Grainger's "Colonial Song", and last night I took the trouble to read his preface to the music. It includes "Perhaps it is not unnatural that people living more or less lonelily in vast virgin countries ...". Never seen that word before (but then, Percy was fairly unorthodox with most stuff. That's probably why I like his music so much). JackofOz 20:54, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

What a strange word. How do you pronounce that? Lowne-lily or low-nuh-lily?  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  01:43, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

No authoritative idea, but I'd guess the former. JackofOz 12:29, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Funnily enough, 'funnilly' is a proper word nad can be used like: 'He rode his bike rather funnilly..'--Light current 04:01, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I can't possibly see how lonelily can be a proper English word. It seems to be have a redundant "ly" to it. You can do that to practically any "ly" word. And they lived Happilily ever after. Of course that doesn't at all mean that poets and artists should avoid words that don't exist. On the contrary. Lewis Carroll's Jabberwocky is a great example of the masterful use of non-existant words. Loomis 10:41, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I can see how he formed it. He added -ly to the adjective lonely, just as the adverb happily is formed by adding -ly to the adjective happy. I think it's quite an OK procedure, even if the resulting word is a bit of a mouthful. JackofOz 12:29, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

The real question, is sillily a proper adverb? Luigi30 (Taλk) 12:46, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Now that I think of it, you're right, Jack. It was just a knee-jerk reflex of mine to assume that "lonely" was an adverb just because it ended with an "ly", when it's clearly just an adjective. Adding an "ly" to it shouldn't be a problem. Loomis 23:35, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

But wait a sec! "Lonely" can be an adverb! If you use "lone" as an adjective, "lonely" can then be an adverb: "The lone wolf just sat there, lonely". Of course it's not always an adjective. I think I'll just quit while I'm ahead. I'm starting to get a headache. :-) Loomis 23:46, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia Tanslation Program

It seems to work on a hundred languages. I would like to know if it is ok to use it to translate other web sites? If yes How ? If no, how does it work?

– — … ° ≈ ± − × ÷ ← → · § 

24.127.173.7 21:59, 8 September 2006 (UTC) sholom fine

You can't copy copyrighted material, otherwis it would be OK to translate information for personal use. 惑乱 分からん 22:08, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia's translation programs are called "human beings who know 2 or more languages." ColourBurst 23:14, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, since machine translations are notoriously unreliable. StuRat 02:20, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

And the articles are not translated from the English Wikipedia. It is just another Wikipedia in a different language. Some articles however are translated, double however, many edits are made after the translations. — [Mac Davis] (talk) (Desk|Help me improve)