Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)

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Contents

[edit] Suggestions on browser compliance effort

Now that IE 6 and 7 often render HTML, XHTML tags and CSS syntax incorrectly, and formal version of IE 8 was released this year, we'd better not consider page rendering in IE 6 and 7, just consider rendering on IE 8, Mozilla Firefox 3.x, Opera 9 & 10, Safari 4 and Google Chrome 2 & 3, thus we can only consider W3C standards compliance and implement newer webpage technology. For IE 7 or earlier users, we can use message or redirect to prompt them to upgrade to IE 8 or switch to other browsers, just like Youtube, Facebook or Twitter.--RekishiEJ (talk) 10:38, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Mediawiki strives to be accessible in IE7 and 8 and to a large part still IE6. I think the general trend has always been to support them until it becomes cumbersome to do so. As long as IE6 still shows _more or less_ ok, there's no reason to throw warnings at people telling them to upgrade. Now, will we go out of our way to be backward compatible with old browsers? No. That's why we don't support IE5 and below, it's simply too much effort for not enough return. All this goes for non-IE browsers as well. ^demon[omg plz] 12:06, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
We cannot force users to upgrade, and many are locked into their current browser. Many libraries, schools, universities and companies use PCs that are locked down. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 13:16, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
HTML is designed for graceful fallback. Anyone who has ever displayed a "best seen in Firefox" badge has missed the entire point of the Mozilla project. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 13:26, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
Well, I do not want Wikipedia to be best seen in Firefox, neither. I just mean that we can drop IE 6 and 7 support to ease maintainment (no longer requires CSS hack). Some notable commercial and individual sites have dropped support for older IE for their incorrect CSS rendering. For libraries, schools, universities and companies, we can ask them to upgrade to the newest version. --RekishiEJ (talk) 23:52, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
Digg is thinking about dropping support for IE6, but I think we should continue to support it if we can. IE6 has more users than any of the browsers besides the top 2 or 3, I think. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 23:59, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
IE 6 still has about a 15% traffic share, and IE 7 about 20%. While it is okay if they aren't pixel perfect, I'm sure we will continue to make sure they render consistently and well, even if that means including hacks and what-not. Dragons flight (talk) 09:43, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
We should try to use warning message to discourage the use of older browsers, hence each user updates their browsers to the newest, enjoys the new features and avoids security concerns since browser vendors usually don't release patches for older versions. Microsoft should also think why some net surfers degrades their IEs to 6 or 7, since IE 8 is slower and less stable than IE 6 and 7......--RekishiEJ (talk) 10:38, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
It's not our job to tell people what browsers they ought to be using. Many readers are in corporate or school environments where they don't have a choice anyway. Rather we should pay attention to what browsers have a significant traffic share and make sure we support those well. Dragons flight (talk) 12:46, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Also, we can use the time and effort doing CSS hacks to debug and add new funtions to current web applications.--RekishiEJ (talk) 11:31, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Site note: Even IE5 (and 5.5) are still currently and actively being supported: rev:53370, rev:53384. Also see the still-loaded IE50Fixes.css (for this vs this). Javascript is expected to break in IE5 however (@23:54:28). --Splarka (rant) 07:31, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Scripts

Such as Twinkle, what are the chances that some scripts might be malicious? Are scripts inspected first or... • S • C • A • R • C • E • 08:52, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

It's up to the user to investigate if scripts they install have any malicious code. Of course practically no one does; it's only a matter of time before someone installs a seemingly harmless script and has their account compromised. That said the risk is pretty low IMO, just keep an eye out for it when installing new scripts. --Chris 09:31, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Without going into specifics, is it actually possible to get your password with a malicious script? Oh, and I always grab scripts that I see other people using, which provides, I would hope, a little security in these matters. The scripts listed on the gadgets section of your preferences are rigorously tested, but nothing stops admins adding them before this testing has taken place. - Jarry1250 [ humorous – discuss ] 10:29, 16 July 2009 (UTC)Bold text
Any script in MediaWiki namespace (including gadgets) can only be changed by administrators. So any malicious code would have to be added by an admin and the addition would have to be unnoticed by other admins. Then this admin needs to entice other users to install this code. All in all, it's not too likely. Scripts in the User namespace can be edited by admins AND the user who has the code in his namespace. So this user can be a freshly registered user, but again, he would need to entice other users into running his javascript. Quite hard to do, without going unnoticed by other users. And then there is step of doing something useful after you have installed the malicious javascript code. Doing real damage, often depends on the user running a compromisable browser. So all in all everything is possible, but damage would likely be limited to a few users at most. And the blocks would be swift and indefinite. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 11:58, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
It's always safer to use a gadget or make your own than to trust some code someone's sent you. Scripts can be malicious and its up to you to check them. If you're not sure about one, it's best not to bother and continue manually. As for twinkle itself, I've never come across malicious claims about it and have made good, safe use of it for a fair while now. Greg Tyler (t • c) 16:15, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
To answer your question, Jarry, user/site JS is disabled on Special:UserLogin and Special:ChangePassword, so it shouldn't be possible for scripts to steal your account password. However, it would be trivial for any script to steal your session cookies, which would allow an attacker to gain control of your account for as long as you remain logged-in. Happy‑melon 17:21, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
But with malicious javascript, you could probably just change all links to those pages to slightly misspelled versions of the same page, and before load send an ajax request to the actual page, and delay page loading until the ajax request returned. On return, you'd then replace the contents of the false Special: page with the remote form and appropriate <title> (etc), practically identical to the regular Special page except with the victim's user JS still loading. When they submit the form, you could then send an off-server request (like via <img>) containing the username and new password, and still allow the form to submit as normal, giving them little reason to suspect anything amiss. Probably several administrators log in to various alternate accounts while still logged in as administrator. WP:BEANS yes, but people need to look out for this sort of thing, not be kept too ignorant. I could probably stick something into User:Splarka/sysopdectector.js or User:Splarka/dabfinder.js without too much notice, if it was obfuscated enough (I wouldn't though!). --Splarka (rant) 07:48, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
@ TheDJ, it would be trivial for an admin to compromise another users account (I'm pretty sure there are other messages that still use raw HTML as well). As for a new user tricking people into installing scripts it wouldn't be that hard for a person who's had some practice at social engineering. Although personally I think most people have better things to do than hack Wikipedia. --Chris 06:58, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Where is the MediaWiki text for Special:Nuke?

Okay, quick question: Does anyone know where is the text used on Special:Nuke is located in the MediaWiki: namespace? Regards SoWhy 12:30, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

You can always go to Special:AllMessages and search for it: MediaWiki:Nuke-tools.
(until it's paginated at least)
Amalthea 12:37, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the quick answer. :-) Regards SoWhy 12:42, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Okay, not really getting the hang of it. I wonder, if I can request you or someone else to implement the following: I think we should have a dropdown like MediaWiki:Deletereason-dropdown on the nuke page as well but I cannot figure out how to put one there. It'd be great if someone could take a look and add it. Regards SoWhy 12:48, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Ah, Special:Nuke isn't prepared to read a list of reasons from any MediaWiki page, unlike normal page deletion. If you want that, it either needs to be written into Sysop.js or into the extension (i.e. bugzilla:). Amalthea 13:01, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
For the record, Amalthea, even setting the limit in the new paginated version to 99999, and thereby still getting the complete list, is a significantly smaller pagesize than the current version, so it's still an improvement. Plus it doesn't look totally horrible, and doesn't use snail-pace javascript to fake-filter the results... :D Happy‑melon 14:50, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, I figured that getting the complete list somehow would still be possible. And I didn't look at the specifics of the change, so if it generally reduces the page size of that moloch then that's a Very Good Thing. :) Amalthea 12:09, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] mediawiki API & encoding

Hi all I hope it is the right place to ask this:

I'm using the mediawiki API to update some pages with an experimental java program. This robot uses the java apache http-client library to update the pages.

 (...)
 PostMethod postMethod = new PostMethod("http://mymediawikiinstallation/w/api.php");
 postMethod.addParameter("action","edit");
 postMethod.addParameter("title",page.replace(' ', '_'));
 postMethod.addParameter("summary","trying to fix this accent problem");
 postMethod.addParameter("text",content);
 postMethod.addParameter("basetimestamp",basetimestamp);
 postMethod.addParameter("starttimestamp",starttimestamp);
 postMethod.addParameter("token",token);
 postMethod.addParameter("notminor","");
 postMethod.addParameter("format","xml");
 int status = httpClient.executeMethod(postMethod);
 (...)

however the 'content' String contains some accents. System.out.prinln(content) looks ok, but the accentuated characters in the wiki look bad. E.g. 'Val�rie' instead of 'Valérie'.

Any suggestion about how to fix this ? Thanks --Plindenbaum (talk) 18:01, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Make sure your HTTP client library is using UTF-8 encoding; it sounds like it's trying to encode to 8-bit Latin-1 (ISO 8859-1 or Windows-1252). --brion (talk) 21:04, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
This fixed the problem:
  postMethod.setRequestHeader( "Content-Type", "application/x-www-form-urlencoded; charset=utf-8");

[edit] Edit button position

There's a preference to enable an [edit] button to appear to enable editing of the lead only. There's also a preference to enable the [edit] button to appear immedately to the right of a section heading, instead of at the right side of the page.

Can we get these two together so that the lead edit button also appears immediately to the right of the header text instead of the far right of the page please? Mjroots (talk) 12:07, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

These are Gadgets. You mean you want the two gadgets to work together ? —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 13:04, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
That's it! I want the two gadgets to work together. Mjroots (talk) 19:07, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Default upload setting for self-created images should indicate user name

Originally posted as : https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=19773

but was informed issue was to do with configuration/scripting on local wikis.

Anyone care to comment or implement this change? Sfan00 IMG (talk) 12:22, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Hmm... If you go to WP:UPLOAD (not Special:Upload), then the first option is "Entirely my own work - I created it, own all the rights to it, and have not used anyone else's work in making it", this takes you to Special:Upload, with the preload "~~~" for author, which gives the user's signature, without date. This indicates the user as the author of that image. Is that what you wanted? - Kingpin13 (talk) 12:44, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
I just added the signature to the source as well (which I think is what Sfan wanted). But perhaps a subst:REVISIONUSER would be better here. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:50, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
Good idea, we don't need people's superfluous signatures in this case. {{subst:REVISIONUSER}} would seem to be a better approach - Kingpin13 (talk) 12:55, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
The reason for this request, as stated was that 'self-made','own-work' etc get confusing hen stuff get's moved to commons.

Help in fixing stuff moved before the change appreciated :) Sfan00 IMG (talk) 12:51, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Footnotes/references

A while back I raised the question of whether there was a way to have footnotes positioned directly under the relevant paragraph, whilst maintaining the ongoing numbering system throughout the article to avoid duplication.I understand that having reference duplication is currently picked up as an error automatically so it would need to get round that. The advantages are 1) it means you can meaningfully and usefully include short quotes in the references and 2) sometimes references are the surest indication of the general approach within an article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dungur (talk • contribs) 16:54, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Why can't you include short quotes in a footnote at the bottom of the page? What do you mean by (2)? Algebraist 16:57, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Sure you can put quotes in a footnote at the bottom of the page but then there's a greater visual and functional disconnection between what's being said in the quote and what's being said in the original text. What I'm getting it with (2) is that not all reference sources are of the same quality: furthermore, they may imply a specific approach to a subject, and knowing what that approach is may be an important bit of information for the reader who's hip to the references. Dungur (talk) 19:36, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Are you are asking for a way to have a references section under each paragraph? This can be done, but there are issues that I will discuss if this is the correct assumption. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 12:11, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] extremely slow, no WP logo, inability to page back to prior location

Anything else need to be said? Trying to use WP is a waste of time. Hmains (talk) 20:52, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Works for me. Have you tried clearing your browser cache? ^demon[omg plz] 20:56, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
I have had the same problems today. BigDunc 20:58, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Some Vector updates

Some updates to the first iteration of the Vector skin were deployed today. Most importantly are changes to several of the IDs, making much of MediaWiki:Gadget-vectorskin-thunks.js no longer necessary. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 20:57, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] CAPTCHA curiousity

When I made this change to News presenter (and retested here), I noticed something that might be an unintended feature of the arithmetic-based challenge-response authentication I've recently been encountering. If the sum/difference I'm asked to calculate is of the form x − 0, I can reply with x − 0 and it will consider the challenge to have been met successfully (i.e., I can reply that 6 − 0 = 6 − 0 instead of 6 − 0 = 6 and my edit is still accepted). I don't know what the odds are that users will be asked to subtract zero from a number, but I would think it's a loophole that automated spammers could exploit occasionally. 68.167.254.171 (talk) 04:37, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

The image captcha was better. With these add/subtract ones they can just write a script to add (or subtract) the two numbers and input the result into the field. 59.95.105.187 (talk) 04:43, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
That's why the image captcha is used whenever the image server isn't busted. Algebraist 04:46, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
I hadn't figured out that the switch to arithmetic was a workaround. I thought it was introduced for users with limited vision in lieu of an audio alternative. 68.167.254.171 (talk) 05:04, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Just wondering, would 5 - 1 = 5 - 1 work too? If so, that would really be a crappy captcha. MER-C 03:41, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

No. The issue is that "(int)$variable" in PHP converts the string in $variable into an integer by removing leading whitespace and then using all the digits up to the first non-digit character. So for "6 - 0" it sees the space after the 6 and stops there; for "5 - 1" it would return the integer "5", which doesn't match the expected answer. The bug here exists for equations of the form "x - 0" and "x + 0"; there are also two related bugs:
  • Anything not beginning with a digit will be accepted for "0 - 0" and "0 + 0".
  • Not serious, but for example "4", "4?", "4 + 1", "4 million", and so on are all accepted as answers to "5 - 1".
HTH Anomie⚔ 11:39, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

I would recommend everyone logging out and putting an external link in a sandbox just to see the new captcha. In my opinion "57 + 8 =" is hardly a trivial calculation and I suspect would stump a third of the population. I would recommend going back to a more traditional captcha or participating in the project to decipher scanned books. I'm sure someone knows what I am talking about. 199.125.109.81 (talk) 14:48, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

As was noted above, this is just a temporary system while the image server is repaired. Mr.Z-man 14:58, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure how much I would trust the edits of anyone who couldn't solve 57 + 8 personally. Dragons flight (talk) 15:06, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
You're referring to reCAPTCHA. See Wikipedia:Perennial proposals#Use reCAPTCHA. Anomie⚔ 15:09, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Problem in scaled-down SVG images

The picture in Quark#Classification suddenly stopped showing, but if the |300px parameter is removed it does show. What on Earth is going on?

Error creating thumbnail: Error saving to file: /mnt/upload5/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/00/Standard_Model_of_Elementary_Particles.svg/300px-Standard_Model_of_Elementary_Particles.svg.png
Most probably the same issue as mentioned in #extreme slowness? and other sections above, I'm afraid. Amalthea 09:58, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
Please report these in the irc channel #wikimedia-tech and a developer will check into it (perhaps with some delay). We just fixed a set of permissions issues; hopefully no new ones will crop up. -- ArielGlenn (talk) 15:55, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] MediaWiki namespace editing without sysop bit

Resolved. Thanks --59.95.98.25 (talk) 16:26, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

[1]How are non-admin developers able to edit pages in the MediaWiki namespace? --59.95.115.71 (talk) 09:29, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

I think this user is in a global permissions group (likely Staff or sysadmin). —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 10:43, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
Yes, this is a feature of the sysadmin global group: editinterface on all wikis. As opposed to old edits like this: nowhere is it recorded how Domas got his sysop bit for that edit, becuase he wrote it directly into the database tables and then removed it after making the edit. Which isn't very 'wiki'. Happy‑melon 11:07, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Quick bar

Hi. I'm left handed and I've only noticed that cologne blue and classic or one other has the option to change the quickbar from left to right and fixed or moveable. Given that I mostly use modern and occasionally mono, would it be possible to be able to add the quickbar option for modern so the navigation bar can be moved to the right hand side. I think you should give people this option for all skins givne that some people are left handed and might find it more natural to have it on the otherside. I also think there should be a shrinkable option on the nav bars like we have with big templates for instance as if we could conveniently shrink the task while reading or at least have the option to this would ease useability I think. Also for the task bar on modern does it have to be so wide? There is at least a centimetre gap, it could be trimmed easily by 1-2 centimetres. Dr. Blofeld White cat 13:41, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org for bugreports and feature requests for the software, incl. skins. And knowing how stuff like this usually goes, patches are welcome :D 15:37, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Links

Somebody has broken the external links code.
Why extra spaces here? (http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/pdf/neighbor/neighbor.pdf) (no spaces should appear between link and close parenthesis)
Why no pdf symbol (and, again, extra spaces) here? xxx? --Nricardo (talk) 14:56, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
Hmm. Maybe just PDFs are affected. --Nricardo (talk) 15:01, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

The image that normally goes in that space (File:Icons-mini-file_acrobat.gif) is currently unavailable. This may or may not be due to the ongoing image server issues. Anomie⚔ 15:13, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
OK, I and apergos were kinda stumped as to why this was broken, but with a bit more brainstorming, it suddenly dawned on me.... GIF thumbing is disabled atm due to issues with animated gifs. Probably someone, or somehow the old thumb for this gif image was purged, and now the image is not regenerated.... This is rather a major pain, because those symbols are in many CSS files.. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 15:54, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
I forgot about the gif thumbnailing, that's certainly the issue; probably the old cached thumbnail was removed during the image server fixing. Is there any reason not to convert these to png? It would need a Commons admin to protect the image there, and an enwiki admin to change our css files referencing that image. I'm neither, so I can't do it. Anomie⚔ 16:30, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
In the mean time I have switched our CSS to use the 16px original. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 16:35, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Mobile Wikipedia

Resolved.  – ukexpat (talk) 19:35, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

I was delighted recently to see that Wikipedia, when viewed on mobile browsers like my iPhone, redirected to a much more tractable mobile version, http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki::Home . I wasn't so delighted this morning to find that apparently all pages requested from http://en.m.wikipedia.org/ give a 404 Not Found from "nginx/0.6.37". The problem is that explicitly trying to load http://en.wikipedia.org redirects to this mobile site, so as it stands, Wikipedia is pretty much entirely unusable from my iPhone. What happened, and can we expect a fix soon? SeanWillard (talk) 15:00, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

I've disabled the redirect code in MediaWiki:Common.js, don't know what's wrong with the mobile site. Mr.Z-man 15:17, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
I informed hcatlin, and it's already back. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 16:18, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
Awesome. You guys rock. SeanWillard (talk) 17:34, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] List of F.A. & G.A. book articles

Resolved.  – ukexpat (talk) 19:35, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

How would one get a list of (non-fiction) books that have achieved Featured Article and Good Article status?--Doug Coldwell talk 15:57, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

You might be able to do it with http://toolserver.org/~daniel/WikiSense/CategoryIntersect.php. It's not working for me right now, though. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 16:01, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
Category:FA-Class Book articles and Category:GA-Class Book articles, if you're willing to filter out the fiction by hand. Algebraist 16:23, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
Thanks, that will do it.--Doug Coldwell talk 19:19, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Alternative title display configuration

(moved to WP:VPR, per suggestion)

[edit] What revision are we on?

Special:Version says we're on r53410, but the change made in r52299 doesn't appear to be live... --- RockMFR 02:19, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Brion created a "wmf-deployment" branch to publish the exact code currently running on Wikimedia wikis (including live hacks and the like). But that means version numbers in Special:Version no longer match those on trunk. Anomie⚔ 02:43, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Images and Tools

I've been working on a tool to help users tackle Category:Non-free_Wikipedia_file_size_reduction_request.

The tool can be found at Resize Tool.

However, as one person noticed when testing it, if the user works quickly enough. Some anti-vandalism channels get spammed with image uploads, something that's not all that desirable. Aside from things like bot accounts, which aren't really necessary (in terms of technical limitations) and not desirable for such a tool, what can be done?

RandomStringOfCharacters (talk) 07:12, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Mobile skin

The mobile skin does not work properly on my iPod Touch. It has iPhone OS version 1.15, and I cannot expand the headers as this requires javascript which is not supported by the OS. I don't know if it works in later OS versions (like 2.0 or 3.0) but I know it does not work with 1.0 and I don't want to pay $US 9.99 to upgrade my OS. While I don't use the browser that much on my iPod Touch anyway, I just thought I'd let you guys know.--Richard (Talk - Contribs) 18:32, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

I have looked into this, and with Safari 2 I was able to find a problem in the Javascript code that is used when using this older browser version. I have created a fix for this and submitted it to the maintainer of the mobile website. Hopefully it will be deployed soon. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 19:48, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] e.e. cummings problem causing redirects

I recently discovered that the myNetwork TV article has the first letter in lower case. I started putting the network's name in the articles this way so as to avoid redirects, but they still happen.Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 18:46, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

I think you've got a spacing issue, although it's not easy to see. The article isn't actually at myNetwork TV but myNetworkTV. I suspect if the article were at myNetwork TV, you wouldn't be getting that redirect. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 19:02, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
Yes, it's a spacing issue. The initial letter of an article page is always capitalized, but thru some template magic (the {{lowercase}} template), it displays as lower case in the article title. However, wikilinks don't care about initial capitalization; a wikilink to myNetworkTV is identical in every way to MyNetworkTV. The page myNetwork TV just redirects to MyNetworkTV (with no space). --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:08, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
I looked at the title several times and didn't see it. Ironically, I almost forgot to put that space.Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 19:18, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
There is nothing wrong with redirects — they don't need to be avoided. --Trovatore (talk) 19:40, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
When you've moved articles and done the "What links here" routine a few times, you try to.Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 21:00, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
Hmm? That isn't usually very hard. You just change the redirects so they point to the right place. There's no need to edit the articles that use the redirects at all. --Trovatore (talk) 21:07, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, it's not a particularly bad thing if there are redirects being used. What's more important to check is that there are no redirects going to a redirect; double-redirects break. EVula // talk // ☯ // 21:29, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Guys, read WP:R2D. --NE2 21:35, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

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