Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/57th Rifle Division (Soviet Union)

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Zawed (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 07:20, 15 August 2018 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

57th Rifle Division (Soviet Union)[edit]

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Nominator(s): Kges1901 (talk)

57th Rifle Division (Soviet Union) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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I am nominating this article for A-Class review because it recently passed a GA review and I believe it is detailed enough to make FAC. This article, my second nomination of the year, is about a fairly obscure Soviet division whose most intense combat occurred at Khalkhin Gol. Kges1901 (talk) 14:33, 21 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

SupportComments: G'day, Kges, interesting article. Thanks for your efforts with this article. I have a few suggestions: AustralianRupert (talk) 11:20, 22 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • seems inconsistent: the infobox says the division was active from 1921, but the article says October 1920
  • I wrote 1921 because in November 1920 it did not have the same designation; it was the 24th Rifle Division VNUS. The 57th was not designated as the 57th Rifle Division until 1921. Kges1901 (talk) 12:46, 22 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • No worries, makes sense, although I would probably just change the infobox myself to "1920", but it is a minor point, I feel. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 01:35, 23 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • there are a few duplicate links: Red Army; 82nd Rifle Division; Mukden; Transbaikal Military District
  • In accordance with the transfer of VNUS... --> Following the transfer of VNUS...?
  • 71 45 mm guns --> seventy-one 45 mm guns
  • same as above for 34 76 mm guns, 24 122 mm guns, 12 152 mm guns
  • the dashes in the Commanders section aren't quite right. Where an item on either side of the endash contains a space, a spaced endash should be used per MOS:DATERANGE
  • many of the sentences start in the same way ("On X..." or "In X"). This impacts on the narrative flow a little, so if possible I suggest trying to vary this a bit more
  • Colonel (promoted to Major General 16 October 1943) Viktor Nikiforov: might be smoother as Colonel Viktor Nikiforov (later promoted to major general 16 October 1943)...
  • and was replaced by division deputy commander Lieutenant Colonel (promoted to Colonel 10 August 1944) Nurey Zakirov: this might be smoother as and was replaced by division deputy commander Lieutenant Colonel Nurey Zakirov, who was promoted to colonel on 10 August 1944.
  • The ranks here (when not used as titles) should be lower case per WP:MILTERMS, i.e. "John Smith was a brigadier" v. "Brigadier John Smith". AustralianRupert (talk) 01:35, 23 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • there is a missing closing bracket in this sentence: The units in Tongliao (the 293rd ...
  • The division was reduced to the 55th Separate Rifle Regiment...: do we know why?
  • @Kges1901: G'day, regarding Ruth's query below about sources, I wonder if potentially you could outline how the sources used here meet the requirements outlined in WP:MILMOS#SOURCES? Your expertise here, might help finalise the review. For instance, Coox, which is used four times, appears to have been published by a reputable publisher (Stanford University Press), so I'm pretty confident that it meets the requirements. But what about Cherushev & Cherushev? This is used six times, and is published by Kuchkovo Pole, which the average English speaker probably hasn't heard of. Do we know anything about this publisher? What sort of works do they usually publish, are they considered mainstream, are there any reviews of their work? Does the book provide citations, or footnotes or list its sources? What qualifications do the authors have? Lazarev & Pogodin is cited six times in a row and largely supports a whole section. As a primary source written by the division's commander, we probably need to be careful with how we use this source. Are there any other, potentially secondary, sources that can be used for this section to verify/support some of this information? Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 09:04, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Cherushev is an retired officer but not a professional historian. His biographical dictionaries are compiled from the Red Army's personnel records in the archives, like the other biographical dictionaries published by Kuchkovo Pole. Cherushev's work has received some positive attention in the Western world, see [1], [2]. Kuchkovo Pole is a military history publisher, books they have published are relatively often cited in English works, mostly for their document collections on Soviet military intelligence - [3]. These types of biographical dictionaries do state sources in the introduction, but there are no inline citations to specific documents. As for Lazarev and Pogodin, secondary sources on the Soviet-Japanese war don't normally dwell on specific units that did not see combat, and the brief mention in Glantz is probably an accurate summary of the information available in Russian. Kges1901 (talk) 10:22, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments by Gog the Mild:

After volunteering to review this article I am chagrined to discover that there seems little for me to do, it seems to be in fine shape. However, a couple of points:

  • "As a result of the Battles of Khalkhin Gol, a series of border clashes with Japanese troops, the division was alerted for combat on 29 June 1939." Given that the majority of the Khalkin Gol fighting was after 29 June, and that the division took part in this, I don't think it reasonable to say that it was mobilised "as a result of" the battles. Also, I am not comfortable with an army level battle with over 50,000 casualties being described as "border clashes". My suggestion would be to delete "the Battles of Khalkhin Gol," but no doubt there are other solutions,
  • "when the last Japanese troops were pushed back over the Mongolian claimed border". "Mongolian claimed border" sounds clunky. Could this be rephrased?
  • "The units of the division also received fuel, rations, and Studebaker and Ford trucks." Reads a little oddly to me; putting food and fuel in the same category as motor transport. What is the significance of the division receiving new/additional motor transport?
  • I assume it was significant in that there would have been slightly less foot marching. Kges1901 (talk) 11:04, 2 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the units of the division took the route from Jarud to Lupei at 3:00". Am or pm?
  • "By the morning of 29 August, the operational group arrived in Mukden and was quartered in a gymnasium, where the Japanese units were disarmed." This reads that the Japanese units were disarmed in the gymnasium. Is that what you mean? You repeat disarming the Japanese in the next sentence. I would suggest deleting ", where the Japanese units were disarmed".
  • It did happen there, according to the report. I have rephrased to avoid repetition. Kges1901 (talk) 11:04, 2 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "they were allocated 36 crews for the escort of Japanese prisoners of war to Soviet territory" Do you mean "36 crews [detachments would be better IMO] from the division were allocated for the..."?
  • I am not an expert in this area, but the sources seem to be all that I would expect and to be appropriately used.
  • I have also made a couple of copy edits. Let me know if there is anything you are not happy with. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:10, 28 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Alt text does not seem to be in place[?]
  • There seems to be a lack of non-breaking spaces ({{nbsp}} or {{snd}}) in all of the places where the MoS would suggest that there should be. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:30, 29 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Added alt text. I am not familiar with the usage of non-breaking spaces. Kges1901 (talk) 15:34, 2 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Kges1901: That all looks fine. "I am not familiar with the usage of non-breaking spaces." Shocking! And you with 4 A class or FA articles to your name. Even your FA article assessors didn't pick it up. What are things coming to that FA assessors let through articles ignoring the MoS? Hohum. I should make you learn them and put them in, but that seems a bit petty. OK. I'll let this one go and if I get a spare hour I will put them in for you. Also I made an edit myself to tie up a last niggling point. Are you/the sources ok with it? Gog the Mild (talk) 16:56, 2 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi Kges1901. Can I give you a nudge re query immediately above? (My edit that is.) Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:28, 5 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The edit is fine and I do not think it would be an unreasonable assumption from the source. Kges1901 (talk) 19:31, 5 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Then I am done. A classy job of work there. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:48, 5 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Images

  • File:Red Army 57th Rifle Division 170th Rifle Regiment territorial soldiers marching 1927.png - I'm not an expert on Russian/Soviet copyright laws, but I'd think we would need the original publication and either the name and date of death of the photographer or evidence that it was published anonymously (us not knowing now is not the same thing, unfortunately) to justify the license tag. We also need evidence that the photo is PD in the US, which may or may not be the case.
  • Have added the original source, which does not have photo credits. Kges1901 (talk) 19:39, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • It would probably be worthwhile to make clear on the file page that the author is not credited. Parsecboy (talk) 19:40, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is not PD-Russia and I have nominated it for deletion on commons. Kges1901 (talk) 19:46, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also not PD-Russia, have nominated for deletion. Kges1901 (talk) 19:59, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments by auntieruth55[edit]

  • what is the difference between the Red Army and the Soviet Army? Inquiring minds want to know.
  • Same force, but in 1946 the Red Army's name was officially changed to Soviet Army. Before then, Soviet army was used as a synonym for Red Army by Western sources. Kges1901 (talk) 21:54, 21 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • who is going to review these sources? I know nothing about the Red or the Soviet Army.
  • I've read through it once, and looks like support. Just a hiccup over the above question. I'll read again in a day or two and I should be able to support. auntieruth (talk) 20:54, 21 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by White Shadows[edit]

  • I suggest a footnote mentioning the "Red Army" / "Soviet Army" name change in 1946. What you wrote just above should be sufficient for the footnote.
  • Colonel Konstantin Lazarev should probably be converted into a red link like the other commanders.
  • Just a friendly suggestion, but have you thought about adding in more photos to the article? There's currently only one. I imagine you could find photos of Khalkhin Gol to add to the article. Not an issue for an ACR, but just something I thought of while reading.
  • If I find anything else worth mentioning, I'll be sure to bring it up.

--White Shadows Let’s Talk 01:14, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • I haven't found anything else which would preclude me from supporting. Great job! I Support promoting this article.--White Shadows Let’s Talk 02:15, 7 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Source review With the proviso that I don't not read Russian and I am unfamiliar with the sources used, I have looked at the information provided by the nominator at Talk:57th Rifle Division (Soviet Union)#Sources and AGF the sources appear to be reliable and of high quality. Good to go. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:12, 15 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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