Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Norman Schwarzkopf, Jr.

Add links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted. Anotherclown (talk) 06:33, 27 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Norman Schwarzkopf, Jr.[edit]

Nominator(s): —Ed!(talk)


My series on U.S. generals continues with "Stormin' Norman" Schwarzkopf. —Ed!(talk) 21:44, 18 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support

Infobox
  • The article is written in a mixture of military (day first) and month-first formats. Pick one. (Make it military.)
  • The relatives section of the infobox is for notable relatives. Remove his kids. But you can put his dad in.
Early life and education
  • Norman Schwarzkopf was described by childhood friends as active and assertive, protective of his sisters and a skilled athlete. spent his childhood attached to his father Think there is a word or two missing here.
  • narrarator Spelling error
  • When Norman Schwarzkopf was eight years old, his father returned to the military. You reckon World War II might have had anything to do with this?
  • The family moved to Geneva, Switzerland in 1947, following military assignment. Not sure about this sentence.
  • In 1946 when Norman Schwarzkopf was 12, he moved with his father to Tehran, Iran, where his father was a part of Operation Ajax, training the Iranian constabulary. In Iran, No, this is not correct; this refers to his later tour in 1951.
  • He later said the time in Iran and with his father had a profound impact on him This is really awkward. so much so, I'm not sure what is meant.
  • Schwarskopf spelling
Junior officer
  • Commissioned as a second lieutenant in the Infantry Branch, Schwarzkopf spend October 1956 to March 1957
  • Schwarzkopf was assigned his first overseas assignment; as a staff officer alternating with duties as a platoon leader, liaison officer, and reconnaissance platoon leader with the 6th Infantry Division. in Allied-occupied Germany. Misplaced full stop.
  • Schwarzkopf was promoted to captain in July 1961. and reassigned for Advanced Infantry School at Fort Benning for eight months Another misplaced full stop.
  • He was originally intended to teach at the Military Academy for three years, however after his first year he volunteered for service in South Vietnam. West Point approved his request in Spring 1965 with the stipulation that he return and teach the remaining two years after his tour. Don't say "Spring 1965".
Vietnam War
  • Schwarzkopf was promoted to major Schwarzkopf -> He
  • After an initial orientation at Military Assistance Command, Vietnam headquarters in Saigon, Extra comma after "Vietnam"
  • Schwarzkopf and his group fought continuously for several days, at one point braving heavy fire to recover and treat a handful of wounded South Vietnamese soldiers and escort them to safety Was this Schwarzkopf or his group?
  • By 17 August the U.S. 173rd Airborne Brigade arrived Drop the U.S.
    • In this instance I thought it was necessary since I'm also mentioning specific ARVN units. —Ed!(talk) 01:51, 20 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • On 14 February 1966, Schwarzkopf led a paratrooper assault on a Viet Cong position Was this US or Vietnamese paratroops?
  • After ten months of front-line duty, Schwarzkopf was pulled from the front by MACV and reassigned as senior staff adviser for civil affairs to the ARVN Airborne Division. James Earl Jones from Gardens of Stone (lower your voice two octaves and repeat:) (lower) "There is no front line in Vietnam".
  • He was assigned as executive officer to the chief of staff at MACV headquarters, No, this is not correct.
    • Double checked. 'executive officer to the chief of staff at MACV headquarters' is an exact title from Pyle p. 36. Does another source contradict this?
  • U.S. 1st Battalion, 6th Infantry, 198th Infantry Brigade at Chu Lai. Drop the U.S.
    • Again here, he was assigned to ARVN units during his first tour, so I thought it would be useful to clarify. —Ed!(talk) 01:51, 20 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Rise to general
  • Disenfranchised by the treatment of Vietnam veterans in the United States after the war, I don't think so. Look up "Disenfranchised" in the dictionary.
    • Ahh, wrong word. Fixed. —Ed!(talk) 01:51, 20 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • He underwent surgery at Walter Reed Army Hospital shortly after his return from Vietnam to repair longstanding back problems exacerbated by Airborne jumps. I think you mean "parachute jumps".
  • Promoted to Colonel, Schwarzkopf volunteered for an assignment in Alaska, de-capitalise "Colonel"
  • The operation was plagued by logistical difficulties exacerbated by poor communication and cooperation between the different services in the operation. comma after "difficulties" but this will still need a copyedit.
  • In spite of personal reluctance of the conflict, eh???
  • He eventually became convinced of the success of the operation, and felt it necessary given the legacy of the Vietnam War on the military. We're degenerating into gibberish here...
    • Fixed. —Ed!(talk) 01:51, 20 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • No, we still have problems with the text. In spite of personal reluctance about participating in the conflict, Schwarzkopf helped lead the initial operation aboard USS Guam, flying into St. George's on the second day of the operation. He eventually became convinced of the success of the operation
        1. What "personal reluctance" about participating in the operation? Fear of death? Reluctance to follow orders?
          1. Reworked. —Ed!(talk) 03:06, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        2. Was the initial fighting on board the Guam?
          1. Reworked. —Ed!(talk) 03:06, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        3. What do you mean by "He eventually became convinced of the success of the operation"?
          1. Reworked. —Ed!(talk) 03:06, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        4. How about an example of inter-service non-cooperation?
          1. Reworked. —Ed!(talk) 03:06, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Following the invasion, Schwarzkopf returned to the 24th Infantry Division and completed his tour as commander of the unit. A division is not a unit. Just say "as commander".
  • He was subsequently among those leaders who were criticized for the poor inter-service cooperation in the operation. Are you sure?
    • The source says he kind of got grouped in with the rest of them; it's the same source that says he had little to do with the actual planning. I was trying to establish that he learned from the mistakes of the Grenada operation and fixed them in Desert Storm. —Ed!(talk) 01:51, 20 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • he was promoted to Lieutenant General de-capitalise "Lieutenant General"
  • conduicting many high-profile spelling
  • Bush then gave Hussein an ultimadeum Whatever that is...
  • struck quickly to cut of the Iraqi forces from the west of -> off
  • This leadership style was sometimes criticized by superiors who felt it reduced their ability to solve problems creatively. Whose ability?
  • More to come... Hawkeye7 (talk) 07:44, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
CENTCOM
  • When did he get his fourth star?
    • Source material indicates it was concurrent to, or shortly before, assuming CENTCOM command. —Ed!(talk) 15:23, 30 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Zagros Doctrine," a hypothetical ground invasion of the Soviet Union No, the plan concerned a hypothetical invasion of Iran by the Soviet Union, not the Soviet Union by Iran.
  • Becoming more concerned with regional turmoil, Schwarzkopf became concerned Did he become concerned, or more concerned?
  • We don't have a map of the CENTCOM area do we?
    • None showing the AOR for 1990 CENTCOM. The only maps we have are modern ones, where the CENTCOM of 1990 encompassed some areas AFRICOM is in charge of today. —Ed!(talk) 15:23, 30 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Gulf Waf
  • Initially believing the Iraqi Army would only advance to the Ramallah oil field, Schwarzkopf was surprised to learn when the Iraqis captured Kuwait City. Learn what? And when did the Iraqis capture Kuwait City?
  • Fearing Iraq would next threaten Saudi Arabia No, Iraq already threatened Saudi Arabia; he feared that it would invade Saudi Arabia.
  • He then called an emergency meeting with President George H. W. Bush He told the President to meet him?
  • Schwarzkopf arrived at the command in Riyadh on 25 August Which command?
  • Internally, Schwarzkopf worked to help coordinate the contributions of the different nations contributing military operations to the effort. I think you mean they were contributing military forces, not operations. And who was he helping to do this?
  • While planning, Schwarzkopf remained in frequent contact with Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General Colin Powell concerning his plans for the offensive Whose plans were these - Schwarzkopf's or Powell's?
  • He devised an operational plan, dubbed "Operation Desert Storm," - - Schwarzkopf or Powell?
  • British Field Marshall Bernard Law Montgomery's defeat of Nazi German Field Marshall Erwin Rommel at the Second Battle of El Alamein in World War II. First of all, "marshal" has only one L. Secondly, Montgomery was not a field marshal in 1942. Thirdly, Rommel was not a Nazi.
  • When he took command of the Gulf War, he sought an entirely different strategy. Did he find it?
  • Powell dealt with him instead With Schwarzkopf or Cheney?

Hawkeye7 (talk) 19:57, 27 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • I'll say this much for the article: you sure put my hastily assembled post death intro for Stormin' Norman to shame :) TomStar81 (Talk) 00:55, 20 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks! I'm a little sad I'm writing this up posthumously, especially given how recently he passed away. —Ed!(talk) 01:51, 20 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment As a comment, you should really consult Thomas Ricks' new book The Generals which has a chapter on Schwarzkopf which is pretty critical of his performance during the Gulf War (in short, he argues that Schwarzkopf was capable tactically, but his war plan didn't take the strategic objectives of the war into account with the result that the Republican Guard was able to escape and that he did a poor job of handling the negotiations at the end of the war). It also has some material on his experiences in Vietnam. Nick-D (talk) 09:43, 20 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Odd question, but do you happen to know the page ranges of the Schwarzkopf material in that book? I found a version on Google books that I could use, but the pages are omitted (they seem specifically interested in preventing use of the material for reference) [1] —Ed!(talk) 15:11, 30 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid not: I borrowed it from the library and have long-since returned it. From memory the chapter on Schwarzkopf is about two-thirds of the way into the book, but there's also some material on his experiences in Vietnam earlier in the volume. Nick-D (talk) 22:46, 30 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It's on pp. 367-396. Hawkeye7 (talk) 00:42, 31 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I would add that you should also consult It Doesn't Take a Hero: The Autobiography of General H. Norman Schwarzkopf by Peter Petre. Hawkeye7 (talk) 04:10, 30 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I looked through it and considered it, but I found that there wasn't a ton there that wasn't already referenced in other sources. I didn't want to put too much of his reflection in the bio, per WP:PRIMARY. Is there a part of the article where I should add something from his book? —Ed!(talk) 15:11, 30 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Personally, I like to make use of all the available literature when I write an article, but if there's one source that doesn't contain anything new, I'll sometimes cite it for something relatively uncontroversial. Having said that, though, a biographical subject's thoughts on particular points of their career can be interesting. But I'm not familiar with the literature on Stormin' Norman (I do have his book somewhere, but I haven't read it), so his more interesting reflections might be covered in other sources. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 11:29, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
In some cases though, like for Douglas MacArthur or Manhattan Project, there is so much literature that it is impractical to make use of it all. Hawkeye7 (talk) 02:45, 8 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

SupportComments. This is an excellent and engaging article. I agree it's sad that it had to be written posthumously, but I guess true recognition only comes after death. With a little polishing, it should easily satisfy the standards for an FA and I hope you'll nominate it at FAC once this ACR is concluded.

  • Born in Trenton, New Jersey, Schwarzkopf grew up in both the United States and Iran. I guess you're trying to avoid monotony here, but that phrasing makes it sound like he grew up in two countries because he was born in Trenton; also, do you need his place of birth in the lead?
  • commissioned a Second Lieutenant Do you mean commissioned as, or is this perhaps an ENGVAR thing?
  • After a number of initial training programs, Schwarzkopf interrupted a stint as an academy teacher, serving in the Vietnam War first as an adviser... doesn't make sense to me. The change in tense mid-sentence makes it really confusing
  • There's quite a big jump in the lead from batallion commander to division commander; I know it's a summary but do you think it would be worth mentioning some of the things he did in the meantime?
    • In terms of historic precedence, he didn't do anything worth noting in the lead before Division command. There isn't a ton of coverage about it anyway. —Ed!(talk) 02:57, 16 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not sure the links to Iraq, Saddam Hussein, and Saudi Arabia add much
    • They're first references so I think they work policy-wise. —Ed!(talk) 02:57, 16 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are a lot of links in the first paragraph of the "Early life and education" section; perhaps you could cull some of them?
  • The prose gets a little choppy and repetitive in the "Junior officer" section, eg Schwarzkopf was assigned his first overseas assignment; in fact, the whole paragraph from that point could do with a re-write
    • I've done some rewording there. —Ed!(talk) 21:18, 21 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • There's an apparent contradiction in [...] returned to West Point for one year to serve as an instructor in the Department of Mechanics.[37] He was originally intended to teach at the Military Academy for three years[...]
  • What's MACV?
    • Comment: This is the sort of thing that I'd never notice. Hawkeye7 (talk) 02:45, 8 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The sentence On 28 May 1970, Schwarzkopf landed his UH-1 Huey when discovering troops of B Company who had stumbled into a minefield, where two officers had been wounded and two soldiers were trapped, fearful of setting off more mines. seems quite complicated; perhaps it could be broken up a bit or one of the subclauses put in dashes rather than commas?
  • He returned to Washington for an assignment DC or the state? Both are mentioned in the preceding paragraphs.
  • criticized for the poor inter-service cooperation do the sources suggest whether this was fair or not?
  • He then called an emergency meeting with President George H. W. Bush Surely even a four-star general can't just call a meeting with the POTUS?
  • He also worked to minimize the culture clash among foreigners in sharia-dominated Saudi Arabia. Are there any noteworhty examples? Also, is sharia a proper noun?
  • I won't duplicate Hawkeye's comments about Monty, but I'll just acknowledge them; I fixed the typo and linked to the article on the British rank
  • Do the sources say anything about how he was at leading a coalition with large numbers of foreign troops? Or what any of the coalition partners thought of him as a commander?
    • Saudi Arabia thought well of him, but that's the only one I can find. —Ed!(talk) 21:18, 21 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do we know why the promotion to General of the Army of Chief of Staff never happened?
    • He just didn't want to do it. The sources say he was asked but that he just wanted to retire. —Ed!(talk) 21:18, 21 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Queen Elizabeth II knighted Schwarzkopf the knighthood would be honorary as he wasn't a Commonwealth citizen; if it were a British article I'd mention that it was a KCB, but I can see why you wouldn't think it important here
  • After the invasion, though, he changed his stance, indicating that UN weapons inspectors found. Did you forget to finish that sentence or something (we've all done it)?
  • I'll second Hawkeye's question about who Powell was dealing with

—HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:14, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    • Fixed. Thant's everything. Thanks for your review and your patience. —Ed!(talk) 21:18, 21 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • No worries. Real life gets on top of us all from time to time! Happy to support, but I'd quite like to see something added about his not being promoted. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:12, 22 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • I've added it in there. —Ed!(talk) 21:41, 23 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments: Support overall very good article, a few comments and suggestions though. Apologies if any of this has been covered above:
  • "While serving as Commander of United States Central Command, he was commander of all coalition forces" Is there a good way around the "Commander ... commander" here?
  • I suggest checking for places where you could replace "Schwarzkopf", I noticed this in the lead and Junior officer sections.
  • Check for consistency with comma usage after dates, i.e. "In January 1952, the younger..." vs "In December 1969 he gained his first field command..."
    • Did a look over and removed some of those. —Ed!(talk) 19:24, 21 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The family moved to Geneva, Switzerland, in 1947, following a new military assignment for Herbert Schwarzkopf.[20] He followed his father, whose military service took him to ..." I'm not sure it's clear who the "He" in the second sentence refers to here.
  • "The couple would later have three children; Cynthia, born in 1970; Jessica, born in 1972; and Christian, born in 1977." Is the first semicolon correct here?
  • Might want to note that the United States Military Academy and West Point are the same thing.
  • Would "and briefly the Frankfurt High School in Frankfurt, Germany." make sense here?
  • " and in the fall of 1974 became deputy commander" I think the MOS recommends against the use of seasons like this.
  • "assignment as Assistant Deputy Chief of Staff for Operations and Plans at The Pentagon." Should "The" be capitalized here?
  • Did he ever comment on the war in Afghanistan like he did about the second Iraq war?
    • Nothing that made any press, anyway. —Ed!(talk) 19:24, 21 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He was subsequently among those leaders who were criticized for the poor inter-service cooperation in the operation." This sentence reads somewhat awkwardly to me.
  • "He was critical of the lack of a reconstruction plan after the initial invasion, feeling the invasion did not take into account" some repetition of "invasion" here. Mark Arsten (talk) 18:11, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Fixed. That's everything. Thanks for your review! —Ed!(talk) 03:04, 23 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies to all for my slowness getting back here. I've started a new job and I've been extremely busy. I fully intend to respond to all comments here as soon as I can. —Ed!(talk) 10:37, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history/Assessment/Norman_Schwarzkopf,_Jr.&oldid=1136064635"