Wikipedia talk:Citing sources/Archive 18

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English-language sources should be given whenever possible

{{helpme}}

i currently have an issue with a user on Talk:Battle of Jenin due to a problematic translation to a newspaper article. this translation page is added with personal highly POV thoughts and unverifiable references in regards to the original article.

the user keeps stating that "English sources must be used, while in this case it is clearly a non reliable and unprofessional source that is also known as POV.

i suggest some statement be issued about such a case in the "Citing sources" article, so that issues like this would not repeat for other users. however, i do not know how to raise the issue in the proper channels and could use a little bit assistance on the matter.

p.s. a comment on the Talk:Battle of Jenin#gush shalom source, would be a generous act to help end this conflict. Jaakobou 00:14, 3 July 2007 (UTC) ( updated Jaakobou 14:01, 3 July 2007 (UTC) )

As a matter of fact, regardless of language all reliable sources should be cited. Also, if you are having issues with another user regarding an article, try an request for comment or a mediation case. Miranda 14:04, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
anyone interested in helping on working this into the "Citing sources" article? Jaakobou 11:15, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - editors might be interested to know that this problem was solved by deleting this detailed and undisputed personal account from the article. The solution previous to this, apparently prefered by the nominator, was to include a misleading synopsis sourced only to this foreign language report. We've had no explanation why he now wishes to keep this account out of the article. PalestineRemembered 11:35, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Purpose of this article.

I have raised this a couple of times as a side-issue on discussion of other points, and have been shut down each time. OK side-issue-wise. I now want to raise it as a main discussion point.

Citing a section of an article

Is there a standard for citing a specific section of a long article in a web page? This section is linked from John N. Gray. I want to format the link as a reference in a citation template. Should I link to the section or to the article? What goes in the title?

—Red Thrush 12:16, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I am not aware of a standard. I would use the {cite encyclopedia} template, filling in as many of the parameters as possible, and put "section 4" in the pages parameter (or possibly the location parameter—check the template's documentation for parameter usage). By all means include the section in the URL (anything that gets your reader to closer to the text you are citing is good). Also, follow the Cite this entry link from the article itself for guidance. Finell (Talk) 00:12, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Important question about: Say where you got it

In the section Say where you got it, I'm wondering how far this requirement goes.

For example, it states, "It is improper to copy a citation from an intermediate source without making clear that you saw only that intermediate source. For example, you might find some information on a web page which says it comes from a certain book. Unless you look at the book yourself to check that the information is there, your reference is really the web page, which is what you must cite. The credibility of your article rests on the credibility of the web page, as well as the book, and your article must make that clear."

Now let's say that author Smith has written a book talking about widgets. In author Smith's book, he supports his argument that widgets can withstand 450 pounds of pressure by citing a book or study written by author Jones. Now, for Wikipedia purposes, let's say that editor Bob merely quotes author Smith regarding the pressure issue and then editor Jim doubts that claim is valid. Is it incumbent upon editor Bob to locate the book by author Jones and instead not only quote author Smith but must also must quote author Jones and give an inline quote to support the whole pressure issue?

I would support the requirement that editor Bob could use author Smith's book but also must quote the info from where author Smith got that info and that would be from author Jones. Plus, an inline quote from author Jones would also be appropriate.

Can someone verify whether this is the correct fashion by which to ideally cite a source? Thank you. Jtpaladin 14:09, 3 July 2007 (UTC)


In this case, the value was determined by Jones, and it is important to credit Jones. However, if you can't get Jones' original publication and must rely on Smith's somewhat unconvincing retelling, I'd recommend saying "Jones (citation) cited in Smith (citation)". It is not very pretty, but neither is the scholarship. That's how this problem is often solved in the scientific literature. Phytism 12:01, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Sometimes Smith may be more of an expert on the subject than Jones, so although Smith gives credit to Jones for originally writing the material, Smith is the one with the knowledge to do a good job of picking Jones out from all his competitors as the one to believe. If that were the situation, and one were paraphrasing, it would suffice to cite Smith. --Gerry Ashton 14:37, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

In legal citation this problem is addressed by putting the more important source first regardless of which is being directly cited , thus using the example above, if we consider Jones primary we can use Phytism's method "Jones (citation) cited in Smith (citation)" but it would be far better to find Jones work and reference it directly. However if, as Gerry suggests, Smith is primary, we would use "Smith (citation) citing Jones (citation)" (in legal citation we would put the second reference in parens). Either way Jones should be referenced because Smith didn't come up with this on his own, but the second version - when used appropriately - is sound scholarship and there is no need to go to Jones, often we don't even have the full citation to Jones available. I would suggest that a lot depends on both the specialization and credibility of both sources AND the importance of the information in the earlier source. Doug. -- DDHME 20:46, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Wiki linking web retrieval/access dates is trivial

The suggested practice of wiki linking web retrieval/access dates (example 1: Wikipedia:Embedded citations#In References, example 2: Wikipedia:Citing sources#Embedded links) is a form of trivia. Trivia is frowned upon in Wikipedia as denoted by the tag {{trivia}}. - Steve3849 talk 14:28, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

No, it is not trivia. Because many Web pages change over time, the access date is a way of indicating the particular version of the page that was used as a source. The policy in favor of providing access dates applies to all Web citations, not just in embedded links. Scholarly journals often require access dates in citations to Web pages for the same reason. Finell (Talk) 22:07, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Let me clarify as my point has been missed. Citing dates, which I agree is important, does not require an actual wiki link to that date. Have you tried the examples I gave? October 27th through-the-ages. What does that have to do with a particular reference? It is trivia. Including dates for retrieval is not the matter of my criticism. Wiki linking the specific date of an arbitrary year for a specific reference is my criticism. Please follow the link to 10-27 as suggested in my initial post. How is this a matter of scholarly reference for any article other than as that page suggests in it's own references "On This Day?" "On This Day" subjects are trivia. - Steve3849 talk 22:26, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Wikilinking dates has the side effect of presenting the dates, to a logged in reader, in the form specified by the user. The choices are
  • No preference
  • 16:12, January 15, 2001
  • 16:12, 15 January 2001
  • 16:12, 2001 January 15
  • 2001-01-15T16:12:34
That is the reason for wikilinking dates, not because there is an interesting article about the date. --Gerry Ashton 22:31, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Thank you - Steve3849 talk 22:37, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Placement of footnote reference tags

I have changed the entry under Wikipedia:Footnotes#Where to place reference tags to match this article. But I have two points I would like to raise:

  • Should we change the section heading in this article from "Placement of footnote reference tags" to "Where to place reference tags"?
  • Until I changed it to match this article's section the footnote article's section started with "Place a ref tag at the end of the term, phrase, sentence, or paragraph to which the note refers." Which is I think clearer than the current wording "Some words, phrases or facts must be referenced mid-sentence, while others are referenced at the end." Does anyone object with replacing the latter with the former in this article?

--Philip Baird Shearer 09:26, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I think you turned an awkward phrase into a very sleek one! Dysmorodrepanis 07:57, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Making references for use throughout the project

It's handy being able to use the <ref name="XYZ"> function, but when working on a different article you have to start again from scratch. Wouldn't it be possible to create 'fixed' reference names for commonly used reference works, so that people can just use 'ref name' straight away on a new article? Users could just add a new reference to the list each time they needed to use multiple references. My only concern is a) is it feasible with the software and b) What about existing reference names?

In terms of b) I think we could easily solve that problem by using names that would never be used normally. For example, I might add the name "Darwin" to refer to Origin of Species, but another article may already be using the same ref name for Descent of Man. To avoid a clash, we could add some simple code before the name or something like that - for example 'rnDarwin' for 'reference name Darwin'. I doubt there would be any existing references using 'rn'. We could also just use different code perhaps, so that there could not be any clashes. Richard001 03:41, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

See m:Wikicite. Both the current version and the old proposal. (SEWilco 03:49, 6 July 2007 (UTC))

References in wikipedia lists

Please comment in Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability#Verifiability in lists. `'Miikka 23:18, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Citing image sources

Hi there,

I'm an admin on the Afrikaans Wikipedia and having a disagreement with a user who only cites the home page of the site from which he downloads images and doesn't link to the page containing the image. The sites where he gets his images from are quite difficult to navigate and in German, which makes it near impossible for a non-German speaker to try and track down the specific page. I have asked him to add the url of the page on which the picture appears, but his argument is that this is not mentioned explicitly anywhere.

Our policies are based on the English Wikipedia's and I was wondering if anyone could help to point me to a page where this is mentioned explicitly? I provided him with a link to Wikipedia:Cite_your_sources#Images, but I have a feeling he is going to argue that the example is just that: an example, and that it still doesn't say that he has to link to the page containing the image.

Any help or advice would be appreciated. Anrie 16:58, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

How about Wikipedia:Citing_sources#Images? -- Boracay Bill 21:57, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Images

Images must include source details and a copyright tag on the image description page. It is important that you list the author of the image if known (especially if different from the source), which is important both for copyright and for informational purposes. Some copyright licenses require that the original author receive credit for their work. If you download an image from the web, you should give the URL:

   Source: Downloaded from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4280841.stm

I pointed him in this direction - but so far he's refused to answer, even though he's been active there. Thank you for the help though, I appreciate it. Anrie 08:02, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Citation of J. Random does not mean generally accepted

I seem not to be able to edit this page, which is just as well, but I have seen a problem with a contributor citing anybody, at all, and thinking that that justified the use of phrasing that implied that this person's views were generally accepted. People should use language that admits that their statement is based on their citation, unless they are prepared to argue credibly that what they say is generally accepted. To do that, of course, they should be prepared to provide a citation of a work seemingly enjoying wide respect, in which what they say is said to be generally accepted. Do I do this? I doubt it, but Wikipedia should make me and everybody else do it, especially after a challenge. I think that ultimately, any implication of general acceptance is slipshod. Who cares? The rest of the world is crazy. Implying general acceptance without substantiation is easy and feels good, but doesn't serve the reader. FETSmoke 19:41, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Sources rarely say that the source's information is generally accepted. For example, P. K. Seidelmann's Explanatory Supplement to the Astronomical Almanac, 1992, University Science Books says on page 56 "many countries also adopt daylight saving time". The words "generally accepted" do not appear in the paragraph. There is no convention in scholarly writing that I know of to routinely present evidence that a source is generally accepted, nor is there any footnote convention to format such evidence. In Wikipedia, if you think a source is not generally accepted, bring it up on the article's talk page. --Gerry Ashton 19:55, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Gerry, could you clarify? I read you as saying two, contradictory things. My complaint was about Wikipedia contributors (NOT source authors) deliberately using language that would lead a reader to believe that an assertion was generally accepted, when it was nothing more (e.g.) than the speculation of some individual who managed to get published. As a test case, an alternative health advocate, initials HC, says that minuscule electric currents taken through the body kill parasites. Would it or would it not be best for me to add to an article on parasites the statement that minuscule electric currents kill them, followed by a footnote reference to a publication of HC, with no language to indicate that this view was far from generally held? FETSmoke 22:33, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
This style guideline, "Citing sources," is about the methods for citing sources. Given that you (FETSmoke) made your post on this page, I took it to mean that editors should not only word articles in a way that reflects the general acceptance of the source (or lack thereof), but should put something in the footnote to prove that the source is generally accepted. If you just meant editors should be careful about how they word articles, then I agree. --Gerry Ashton 23:28, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Beautiful. Thanks. I'm looking for anything I can do to get this point more institutionalized (officially stated). I think some people (we don't all have cultural contact with the intellectual world or academia) just assume, innocently enough, that in view of Wikipedia policy, if they provide a citation, they are then justified in using language that implies that the statement is generally accepted in our civilization. FETSmoke 00:54, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, the best defense in this case would be Only the highest quality sources are acceptable as support for extraordinary claims. from Wikipedia:Verifiability. I would suggest that you add that this is not the generally accepted view (or whatever) in the article and then defend your edit on the talk page. Unfortunately I know nothing about the subject myself, so I can't help much. Anrie 18:41, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Too Many References?

At what point are there too many references for a particular statement? If the statement is moderately (but not highly) contestable, for example something that has recently been in the news and has been established as fact by the media, how many references would be needed? Thanks. - ARC GrittTALK 20:27, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm curious too. Check out the Halo:Combat Evolved article, it's rendered extremely difficult to read due to a HUGE number of refs on trivial statements. Maury 20:36, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
But since that article was recently promoted to Featured Article status, I'm guessing that it does not have too many inline citations. -- Satori Son 00:12, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
See the MOS on "overlinking", WP:OVERLINK, and the over-the-top example at [1]. -- Boracay Bill 23:42, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes, but that section of the MOS refers only to internal wikilinking, not outside references. Ditto for the example.
In general, every statement of fact or opinion, but not necessarily every single sentence, should be attributed to a reliable published source. But each such statement probably does not need more than one citation unless it is particularly contentious. Then perhaps two or three would be called for, but even that would depend on the quality of the reference(s).
In short, it's really a case-by-case determination, so I'm not sure there's much guidance we can give without a specific example. -- Satori Son 00:12, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I hope I'm not too late, but I'd like to get your collective opinion on Dulwich College, which I reduced from 60 references down to 11 by removing specific page citations (90% of them came from only two books - see this edit). It has recently been reverted by an editor who claims page numbers should be included when known, regardless of how many there are. Is this article over-referenced in its current state? Hoof Hearted 18:33, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
If a specific fact is found on a specific page in a major-length work - so that a reader checking the source would be hard pressed without such assistance, it is nice to include the page number. Dysmorodrepanis 08:13, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
In some academic settings, particularly when dealing with controversial material, one would expect a minimum of one citation per sentence. The only time I would try to reduce references is if a statement is sourced by multiple citations that are of equal academic credibility, and they all say the same thing on the subject. But even then, showing multiple sources for a single statement is sometimes the only way to overcome challenges to the statements. On Wikipedia, some articles are hotbeds for controversy, and very strong citations are of particular importance for such articles. Buddhipriya 18:52, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
As a good rule of thumb: "enough" sources. That is, if it's uncontroversial and trivial or general, not even an inlined citation may be necessary as long as the reference work is given in the list of sources. If its uncontroversial and specific, one source. If it's controversial, at least one source for any significant POV in the controversy. If it has to be assembled from multiple lines of evidence - no scientist knows all material on the subject, and interdisciplinary research is always demanded but not that often really delivered - it is obviously necessary to cite all relevant sources for the issue at hand. E.g. see American Kestrel footnote 2 (and these are about half of the available sources... more will inevitably follow when I've got them. As a side note, in such cases always try to start with reading the newest sources. Some day, this will save you a lot of rv work...) Dysmorodrepanis 08:13, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Amalgamating multiple references for the same source?

I've been working on articles that use the same source as reference for a couple of different points. But entering a ref tag against all points results in the source being listed multiple times in the references section. Is that the desired behaviour? Or is it possible to make multiple ref tags point to the same reference source listing? Thanks --Irrevenant [ talk ] 01:10, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

If you're just citing an entire source and don't need page numbers for each citation, then use the <ref name="name"> ... </ref> code. For information on its usage, see Wikipedia:Footnotes#Citing a footnote more than once. Pretty simple, really.
If you need to use unique page numbers for each inline citation, then it gets more complicated. One possible solution is the relatively new Template:Rp, but I haven't yet used it myself and I don't know how widely it's accepted; it's only used in a handful of articles thus far.[2]
There are also a some ref tag customization features discussed at mw:Extension:Cite/Cite.php, but that's a little over my head. -- Satori Son 01:46, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
<ref name> is what I was after. Thanks --Irrevenant [ talk ] 08:29, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately, use of named references in that way makes the article more difficult to maintain, often causing structural errors when casual editors make a change to one use of a named reference with no systematic checking for collateral damage. Also, the lack of page numbers makes citations difficult to verify. I generally dislike seeing named references and tend to challenge any general book citations on the basis that that are vague and difficult to verify. Buddhipriya 18:59, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

References in headings?

Is the reference for the route description in U.S. Route 50 placed appropriately? If not, where should it go? --NE2 20:47, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Also, is it necessary to reference every part of that section to a different map, as in State Route 1002 (Lehigh County, Pennsylvania) and suggested at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject U.S. Roads#Reformatting of U.S. Route articles? This seems like overreferencing to me; for instance, in that same article, the "Diners of Pennsylvania" cite doesn't give page numbers, and none of the links to scanned maps give locations on the maps (like "grid A2"). --NE2 22:11, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Further Reading

I think the guideline related to the "Further Reading" sections should be expanded. The guideline should only encourage the inclusion of high quality references in the further reading section, while, for now, the practice is encouraging the multiplication of low quality references.

It seems to me the FR (Further Reading) section is very important, it's where wikipedia is sending people interested to explore the subject further, we should be certain only to include references of high quality. However, this section seems to be taken lightly. I'm currently trying to clean some articles where, IMO, there's too much references of low quality (even some containing misleading remarks contradicting directly the article), but I found that there's some odd reversal of the burden of the proof taking place. Normally, if someone is trying to add something to an article, if it's even moderately controversial, the modification will be reverted and moved to the discussion so consensus can be made, and THEN the article will be modified.

For the FR section, it's very often the exact opposite. Books are added without any discussion to justify their inclusion; still, attempts to remove the references and talk about it are tortuous. By making it so hard to clean the FR section, and so easy to add new references, the FR section will become (or are already) libraries of poor references. And it's very sad, because the FR should be made to encourage readers to acquire a deeper understanding of the subject. I think it's disrespectful to the readers to allow anything to be added in this section with no or little discussion about the references quality. -PhDP (talk) 09:07, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the above problem statement. I tend to try to delete the Further Reading section completely if the article is well-referenced and has a credible References section. The lax approach to Further Reading is connected to the poor referencing on many articles. If books are listed in Further Reading but are not actually used in Notes (which results in their inclusion as References), why are they being mentioned? If the book is so wonderful why is it not cited anywhere in the article? Note that the References section is supposed to contain a list of works actually cited in Notes. Thus books listed in Further Reading are not "References", they are book suggestions. See: WP:LAYOUT Buddhipriya 19:05, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I also usually eliminate "Further Reading" sections. Then again, I usually do natural science articles; it is certainly different in the Humanities. But often, "Further Reading" should be nothing but a holding pen for future references to work into the text - if the works therein are not popular treatments of the topic (which still may hold some WP-worthy gems), inclusion in a "Further Reading" section usually implies that the editor has not read them; ese they could be cited. Dysmorodrepanis 08:17, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Should we ever box in references

With the recent increase in references people have started to add scroll boxes around the references (see e.g. European_Union#Footnotes), effectively hiding the majority of the references to the reader unless extra scrolling actions are taken.

Do we think references should be treated in this way??
I strongly think not because:
A quick glance at the ref-list (ie without scrolling) gives a lot of information on the quality of citations. It also gives a good overview whether the article relies on a single repeated references, or that there is a true richness of references underlying the article. (being an academic myself this is one of the most powerful ways I use to judge the value of a scientific publication)
Also, some browsers may not depict the boxed references correctly.
Thirdly scrollbars within scroll bar areas are not a very good thing with regard to general usability for the less browser savvy among us.

Furthermore there seems to be no true argument to box the references, as they are usually at the complete back of the article and this will not reduce readability in any way, not even if the list of references is truly staggering (e.g. over 1,000 refs). Hence I would strongly call for a wiki-guideline in the referencing page stating clearly that the refs should not ever be boxed. Arnoutf 16:46, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

That boxing is a horrible idea; perhaps we can go for a simpler guideline: don't do things that cause the article to no longer be printable. Kirill 17:26, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
I concur that this is a bad idea, and also concur with Kirill regarding the simpler guideline: don't do anything that makes the article unprintable. Carom 18:20, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
For the benefit of the reader, the scrolling was removed with this diff.--SallyForth123 07:23, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

PMID citation filler is no longer working

This site appears to be dead.

  • Template builder — Given an ISBN, a PubMed ID, etc., output a citation which can be pasted into a Wikipedia article.

Pdeitiker 19:03, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Working now just fine68.90.41.42 21:43, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

How do you source if...

Ok, for this one album wikipedia page I am working on, there is a problem. There are few sources I can find that are good, HOWEVER, there is this one perfect source. It was a Vh1 Ultimate Albums documentary back in 1994 of the band in the era of the album, interviewing them on it, giving history, it's the best source available. However, how do you source it? An example would be great. Or, would I have to upload it to a video streaming site and source that? Someone please help, it could really make the article 99% better. Xihix 22:21, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

The purpose of citation is to allow a reader to locate the source. Was the documentary sold on DVD or videotape? If so, someone could find it in a library, even if it is no longer for sale. --Gerry Ashton 22:25, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I believe it was sold on videotape, but I'm not sure where. I do know a few sites that have the entire documentary for download. Xihix 22:43, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
No, you don't have to actually upload it (that would most likely be a copyright violation, anyway). There's no requirement that every reference must be readily available online; it's just strongly preferred by many editors.
As far as how to cite it, the {{Cite video}} template is a good option. -- Satori Son 00:36, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Intermediary sites, dead links, retrieval/access dates

1. What is the proper citation format for a footnote for an article published by an intermediary source/site? Can't seem to find this.

2. What is the protocol for citing an article from a magazine that does not publish online, but which another site has archived online? The intermediary web site allows readers to verify the information, yet the site may not have permission to have republished the article in question. What should be done? Is the link valuable, or is it better to include a footnote to the original source (if you saw it there also) without any link because of the potential copyright issue for the intermediary source's site?

3. What should be done for footnotes with dead links?

4. If an article's footnotes don't currently indicate retrieval dates, should something be done about this? Or should only new footnotes indicate accessed dates?

Thanks --Melty girl 01:22, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

1. The 14th edition of the Chicago Manual of Style in §15.124 offers this example of a chapter that was originally published in a publication other than the one being cited:
Fromson, Orlando. "Progressives in the late Twentieth Century." In To Left and Right: Cycles in American Politics, edited by Wilmer F. Turner. Boston: Lighthouse Press, 1990. First published in North American Political Review 18 (fall 1988): 627–42.
2. Don't cite websites that appear to be violating the copyright.
3. If you can't repair a dead link, leave it to show that a source existed when the information was added, and also because a more skillful editor might be able to repair the link.
4. Access dates are not usually important if a publication date is provided, but it may be useful to add one if the article concerns an ongoing event. --Gerry Ashton 02:45, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
1. Thank you!
2. It's OK to cite a publication without a link, right? (Because the article was never published online by the magazine?)
3. Aha.
4. Is a biography an ongoing event?
--Melty girl 05:02, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
2. Naturally, your wouldn't be able to provide a link if the source was never published online. You do have to cite the printed material accordingly, though.
4. If the person is still alive, then yes, a biography is an ongoing event. This might also be true of people who are very recently deceased. Anrie 07:07, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Thank you kindly! --Melty girl 08:22, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Sometimes, you find for example re"print"s of scientific papers that lack images etc. In such cases, I give the proper citation (which in newer papers usually includes a digital object identifier for which there is the very useful {{doi| }} template) and add an additional link to the full-text with a remark on the format it's in such as "HTML without images" etc. That should provide both the information needed to get the original article (which usually is not freely accessible in such cases) and the re"print", and warn users that the latter is not identical with the original. Dysmorodrepanis 14:01, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
As for publication vs. access dates, web sites often have no publication date, or some generic statement that appears on every page such as "Copyright John Doe 1988-2007". If there is no publication date, or it appears the publication date does not give a real indication of when the material was written, an access date is important. Also, if the event is ongoing, new information might come to light, and the publication date might not make it clear whether the web site was written before or after the new information. For example, if a web site was trying to guess how the Harry Potter books would turn out, a publication date of "2006" would be sufficient, but if the publication date was "2007" you should add an access date as well. --Gerry Ashton 18:58, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Should all editors, then, infer from this that editors need to keep a record of accessdates added because the access is a current-year access, and then need to go back next year to clean up those no-longer-needed accessdates? Wikipedia articles are not dated,. and (IMO -- I don't know whether this is Guideline-supported) Wikipedia articles should contain no material which depends implicitly on the time/date of the insertion of the material in question. -- Boracay Bill 23:38, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
"Wikipedia articles should contain no material which depends implicitly on the time/date of the insertion of the material in question." - this is obviously untenable (though the rationale is perfectly valid), as anyone who has ever edited articles on emerging scientific issues (such as Colony Collapse Disorder) over months can attest: knowledge does get obsolete, and not all obsolete knowledge can at once be weeded out. Access dates are a nice bit of information. Not necessary, but helpful in a pinch. What is more important is the date of last revision of Web sources - unfortunately, this is not always available, and then, the access date has to take over. But in general, access dates just help keeping track. Dysmorodrepanis 07:55, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I would say the purposes of an access date would be to allow a future reader to:

  • know the latest possible publication date, if there is no publication date given in the source
  • understand discrepancies between Wikipedia and the source that could be due to the source being edited after the portion of the Wikipedia article was written
  • find archival material stored at the cited web site.

I see no reason for access dates to be updated or removed unless the fact cited needs to be changed due to new or better information. --Gerry Ashton 01:03, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Dysmorodrepanis 07:55, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I was just thinking about this. If the destination link is dead or no longer includes the information required it is often removed. This might lead us to think that the access date is a bit pointless. Of course there are the counter arguments, including "it's just what you do" and the use of web archive systems such as the Wayback Machine. violet/riga (t) 10:07, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
I have formerly removed deadlinks, but now, I try to outcomment them if they contained subject matter that is not trivial or replaceable by another source. That way, the information can eventually (hopefully) be referenced by another source. Dysmorodrepanis 07:55, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

References template

I've found that {{reflist}} seems to give a better display than a bare <references /> tag -- should we change the article to recommend it instead? Or does that violate the "take it easy with cite templates" advice given elsewhere in the article?--SarekOfVulcan 17:41, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I just tried them side by side, and couldn't see any difference. Could you explain what the difference in appearance is? --Gerry Ashton 18:20, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
For one thing, it uses references-small: for another, it accepts parameters for column count or width.--SarekOfVulcan 19:15, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I have not studied the fine points you are mentioning. I suggest that a general statement that {{reflist}} is preferred to <references/> is not appropriate because it does not actually describe the preferred appearance. Instead, it would be necessary to make a statement that specifies exactly every single character that the editor should type; otherwise nothing is really specified. --Gerry Ashton 19:39, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I have observed that "X is preferred" usually actually means "I personally prefer X, and so should you". I think mentioning {{reflist}} would be useful, though I don't think that this mentioning belongs in this guideline (IMO, this guideline is ranging far beyond how to write citations in articles, but that seems to be a minority view). -- Boracay Bill 23:50, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Scrolling Reference List

I have seen various discussions about scrolling reference lists:

  1. Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2007 June 11#Template:Scrollref
  2. Wikipedia talk:Citing sources#Should we ever box in references
  3. Talk:Disappearance of Madeleine McCann#Reflist Formatting
  4. Wikipedia talk:Footnotes#scroll box for references

I strongly believe that the templates for deletion discussion sets a precedent which means that scrolling reference lists should never be used. As such I have been in a discussion (see #3), however no progress is being made in this discussion. The editors in the talk page for the article seem to be using the argument that "regular editors" of an article have a more valid opinion than other editors (or in this case the vast majority of editors, see #1). I believe this is against the philosophy of Wikipedia, though I cannot find any guildline or policy which states as such.

I have seen scrolling reference lists on many other pages aswell, and I have left the present as I did not really put much thought into them. I have now thought about it and I feel that it is clearly a bad idea to have scrolling reference lists. I wish to make a formal guideline discussion which sets out when (if ever) a scrolling reference list is appropriate for an article. How would I go about this? Thanks - ARC GrittTALK 17:10, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

There is another discussion Wikipedia_talk:Footnotes#scroll_box_for_references.
I would like to see not using it becoming part of policy as well, but don't know how to get that done. Arnoutf 17:38, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Help:Modifying and Creating policy states that "Discussion on policy talk pages [is] Most suitable for small changes within the given policy, where the talk page may reflect consensus of editors most active in connection with that policy and its development." We should discuss either here or at Wikipedia talk:Footnotes to change the guidelines. - ARC GrittTALK 21:58, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
strong agreement that changes to project-wide policy and guidelines should not be made by a small group working in isolation without obtaining wide agreement. I have no idea what arrangements might exist to support this. -- Boracay Bill 23:21, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I believe this is the correct place to address this issue, because it is just as applicable to the reference list for Harvard references as it is for footnotes. --Gerry Ashton 23:36, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I have mentioned this dicsussion at the Wikipedia:Village Pump. --Gerry Ashton 23:53, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Either here or in Wikipedia:Footnotes would be a good place to mention that scrolling reference lists are inappropriate; they're both linked to as subsidiary pages of the Wikipedia Manual of Style, which governs this sort of question. The house style is necessarily flexible, but puts reasonble limits on formatting and layout—and should definitely bar scrolling boxes inside articles. They break when someone tries to print an article, and they may not copy properly when pages are mirrored. Plus, they're a nuisance for someone who is trying to actually look at the references. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 01:15, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Always place references after punctuation

see Wikipedia talk:Cite sources/archive17#"Footnotes come after punctuation" for previous long discussion

"Some editors prefer the style of those journals, like Nature, which place references before punctuation."

Can we strike this and make after punctuation our house style? Placing refs before punctuation looks awful. I thought this was the recommended style, anyway. Did someone change it? — Omegatron 01:30, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Refs after punctuation is our house style and has been ever since the ref tags were introduced, Philip Baird Shearer recently changed it, both here and at Wikipedia:Footnotes. I've changed it back. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 19:51, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
The prescription on where to place references tags was added to Wikipedia talk:Footnotes by SlimVirgin at 05:38, 17 May 2006 without any agreed consensus to do so. The prescription on where to place references tags was added to Wikipedia:Citing sources by SlimVirgin at 18:54, 29 October 2006.
SlimVirgin, where and when in the talk pages was there a consensus for the prescription you placed in the guidelines? I only changed it after a very long discussion (Wikipedia talk:Cite sources/archive17#"Footnotes come after punctuation") where the wording was discussed in depth and a compromise wording was agreed. Why, given that a consensus to differ was reached only two weeks ago, do you thin you should have a carte blanche to change it back to your prescription on other styles without a consensus to do so? --Philip Baird Shearer 22:32, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
can we just say not to deviate from a style already established bin an article, and work on something substantial, such as adding references to unsourced articles? They need references, let the periods go where they may. DGG (talk) 03:30, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
There was a discussion recently (see the most recent archive) that came to the conclusion that we should permit either system and not waste time changing back and forth. Personally I am happy with letting people do whatever they want so long as each article has a consistent look and the actual citations are clear. Christopher Parham (talk) 04:47, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Having spent an age getting a to compromise wording, I would not be happy to see the the removal of the compromise unless I am allowed to put in my own preferred style :-) --Philip Baird Shearer 13:27, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Although I would personally prefer that Wikipedia have a standard style that was consistent across all articles, many editors obviously have strongly differing opinions on the matter and the current wording is a decent compromise. It's a hornets' nest that is not worth stirring up. -- Satori Son 14:04, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
The fact that many editors have personal feelings about things is the reason why organizations adopy a MOS. The purpose of a MOS is to establish a clear specification for how the organization wants to do things. I recognize that Wikipedia often places respect for diversity of views above other criteria such as consistency of style. In this case I think that something as basic as where to place references relative to punctuation should be standardized across all articles. Failure to state clear standards results in bickering over individual articles, time that would be better spent writing an encyclopedia. While it can be frustrating to continue to try to reach agreement on a single standard, the time invested in doing so may save far more time out in the trenches. Regarding the specific style question, I think that all references should immediately follow punctuation (except when used within the midst of a sentence), and that that method should be the only standard approved for use on Wikipedia. Buddhipriya 19:33, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. There is strong consensus for this. Ref tags before punctuation look awful. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 19:52, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
SV where is your strong consensus? The last time it was discussed two weeks ago (Wikipedia talk:Cite sources/archive17#"Footnotes come after punctuation") the wording as of yesterday was agreed. It should remain until such time as a new consensus is reached. --Philip Baird Shearer 21:01, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I have read that placing the reference immediately after punctuation with no space between the punctuation and the reference prevents the reference number from wrapping to the next line by itself. In my sandbox, I put some references before punctuation, and I was not able to make the reference number wrap to the next line. Can anyone confirm this is a real problem. If so, it could serve as a reason for Wikipedia to adopt reference-after-punctuation as a house style, apart from opinions about what looks best. After all, other publications have the same appearance issues Wikipedia does, and some of them seem to not be concerned with how refererence-before-punctuation looks, but they don't have Wikipedia's line-wrapping software. --Gerry Ashton 21:02, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

As far as I understand if there is no space then the reference number will not fall onto the next line, which is as desired. The line-break problem applies to the issue of a space intervening between punctuation and the reference, but not to the order of the punctuation and the reference. Christopher Parham (talk) 21:08, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

In general, Wikipedia has always favored putting references after punctuation. This looks aesthetically the best, it is common elsewhere, and it gives our articles a uniform appearance. There is no consensus to move away from this standardized format, and a very broad one would be needed to do so. Crum375 21:13, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

To use the very objective argument the other way... References after punctuation look horrible, aesthetically terrible. Or in other words this is in the eye of the beholder. Of course me being from Europe I prefer the UK published style of Nature over the Chicago referencing style. Perhaps the beauty of reference position is a cultural thing. Please do not use subjective arguments such as those concerning 'beauty'; that will not contribute anything. Personally I am in favour of the internally consistent style that may differ between articles. The same way as we allow English UK and English US spelling. Arnoutf 21:58, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Crum375 you wrote In general, Wikipedia has always favored putting references after punctuation. Please read the archives. SlimVirgin introduced the instructions on where to put reference tags last year and since it was introduced there has never been a consensus on this issue. If there has, (other than two weeks ago when we agreed to dissagree) then please indicate where and when you think this consensus was reached. --Philip Baird Shearer 22:32, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
That's not true. Ever since these ref tags were introduced, people have placed them after the punctuation. I may have added it to a guideline, but it was already happening.
I also had to give up something I wanted in that regard, Philip. I wanted the house style to allow a space between the punctuation and the tag, and I argued in favor of it for quite a few months, and continued using the space myself, but the consensus was strongly against me, so I gave up — and I stick to the consensus style myself when I write now, even though I don't much like it. We can't say of every style issue: oh, it doesn't matter, let people do what they want. We need some degree of uniformity. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 23:09, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
I think the relevant technical features (same font, same background, etc.) provide a quite satisfactory level of uniformity. Every article is written and edited by a different group of people; I don't see much value in using style guidelines to create the impression that Wikipedia is monolithic. Christopher Parham (talk) 23:15, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
SV. No one is denying that some/many (who knows) editors put reference tags after the punctuation. But there are also a lot who do not. When you introduced you wording prescribing the method to use Ligulem, wrote a bot to change them he changed 600 articles before complaints stopped him. At that time there were 12,000 articles with reference tags before the punctuation if only 10% of those were not mistakes that is a lot of editors who disagreed with your prescription. The new wording which was agreed by editors two weeks ago (Wikipedia talk:Cite sources/archive17#"Footnotes come after punctuation") is a compromise which most seem able to live with and one which promotes the method you like. Why do you want to force your way or no way on other editors? --Philip Baird Shearer 16:35, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
I think perhaps it would be well to recognize that this is not purely an US project, and there are differences between the usual punctuation in the US and the UK. We accept spelling differences, we accept differences in the use of single and double quote, we can accept this. We do need some degree of uniformity, but this is just a wiki--just a community-built online encyclopedia, and trying for uniformity in details where they are not necessary is is a waste of time and effort. those who want to have a uniform standard of details might be happier in a project where rules are enforced from the top. There is something we need more important the the right sequence of punctuation marks in references--we need more references, and any time spent in discussing or correcting this does not improve the important aspects of the encyclopedia. DGG (talk) 04:59, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Discussion is valuable, (though it gets a 'trifle' long-winded sometimes). Style guidelines, which promote consistency, are very desirable. Uniformity, of the "monolithic" type, is neither desirable, nor achievable, as noted just above by Users: Christopher Parnham and DGG. Consistency should not over-ride intelligibility, nor preclude valuable additions being made. All users who make sensible suggestions on talkpages are helping to improve WP, indirectly. This matter, of where to place the footnote tag, can be decided by experienced editors, who learn what to to by observing current examples they find in good articles. We have to put up with variation in spelling (US-Comm.), and that works well enough. (kicked two cents into the kitty) Newbyguesses - Talk 05:59, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

(outdent; general comment)

Isn't this a British (or commonwealth-) English vs US English issue? And shouldn't it be treated as such (i.e. depends on the subject, and the format used by the first editor to cite a ref)?

That said, if I give [1] three references in a sentence[2], why should only the last be outside the punctuation?[3] Doesn't the correct position perhaps depend on whether the preference is for the final clause, or the whole sentence? Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 18:29, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

The second one is wrong; it would come after the comma. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 04:46, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I've asked this many times. Can someone show me an FA, GA, or just a very well-written article that places refs before punctuation (not counting ones written by people involved in this dispute)? SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 04:50, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
As I said on the other page, this isn't a very compelling point. Because the relevant guidelines have until recently endorsed one method all FAs (and probably most GAs) have been changed to use that method. But by taking a look at FACs you can see that many well-written articles use the other system until they hit FAC. Enough articles have this issue that a script was written to change them around. Search "wikipedia featured article candidates references punctuation" or see, e.g. this FAC: "I was always taught (in the UK) the opposite. Since the language is in British English, is it not permitted for the article punctuation to follow British English convention also? It would seem perverse to use British English spelling and American English punctuation style!" It's happy that there is a script to make that change, because, as with other elements of the MoS, we are putting authors to work making changes that add little or no value. Christopher Parham (talk) 05:07, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
All FAs and GAs are written with refs after punc, but NOT because it's a rule; rather, it's a rule because that's the way all good editors (that I know of) write them. That's why I asked to see an exception.
This isn't a British convention. The overwhelming majority of British publications also put refs after punctuation. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 05:13, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Whether all FAs and GAs are written thus is an unprovable statement so it is therefore irrelevant (unless you can indeed provide the evidence). I have had the personal experience that I had to change the internally consistent formatting of an article at GA review because it would fail otherwise on the sole basis that the refs were prior to punctuation. In other words, this is a circular argument, by imposing this disputed guideline in GA and FA review you will make the guideline valid, but not through argument.
Also, who are you to determine who are good editors.
Again the statement "overwhelming majority" of British publons is an unproven statement. I could as easily state that only there is only a small minority of US journals placing the references behind punctuation (I challenge you to prove the opposite).
Please let us try to keep this discussion at acceptable arguments rather than the type of "everybody knows I am right, and if you think I am not right you are not a worthwhile editors so I don't need to listen to you" type of arguments in above statement Arnoutf 13:10, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't think that Philip Baird Shearer and the few other users he has found that support him constitute a broad enough sample to override the existing established convention. Wikipedia is a mature publication and may set a preferred style. Changing horses in midstream is always a bad idea. Making Wikipedia inconsistent just to satisfy a small number of users is also a bad idea. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. IPSOS (talk) 16:29, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Making a petty rule on this subject was a bad idea to begin with. Like AE/BE, leave it alone. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:58, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
As I just pointed out, Slim, that is simply untrue; merely examine the many FAC's where editors are asked to change the style, of which I provided one example. Christopher Parham (talk) 16:31, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I've worked for several UK publishers on medical/scientific works and, before editing Wikipedia, I'd never seen a stylesheet with references after the punctuation. I do think this is probably another UK/US dichotomy. Espresso Addict 14:15, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, Chris, I don't follow. You seem to be agreeing with me that all FAs and GAs use refs after punc (the house style), while also saying it is simply untrue. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 20:16, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
It is therefore untrue that all articles of FA and GA standard use this format. The circular causation: GA insists on the format because this page said so, because it's GA practice, is irrelevant; and it would continue to be irrelevant if GA were worthy of respect. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:58, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Okay, sorry if I'm being dense, but I'm not getting this. All articles that go for FA or GA are required to have refs after punctuation. This is a long-standing convention, not because of any "rule," but because it's what good editors do themselves, and want others to do for the sake of consistency. That is why it was added here as a "rule," because it describes best practice. It didn't become best practice because it was added to a guideline.
My question therefore was whether there are execeptions (and it's still not answered), so — could someone show me one FA or GA article that places refs before punctuation, or failing that, one very well-written article that does it (excluding any article where one of editors arguing for refs-before-punc here was the one to add them). In other words, if you are saying that refs-before-punc is a legitimate practice of good editors, please give some examples. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 23:16, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
FA and GA articles don't reflect, stylistically, the practices of good article writers. They reflect the practices of the nitpickers at FAC and GAC who enforce the style standards -- in many cases, the same people who water and nourish the ever-expanding thicket of rules that is our manual of style. If I changed all the text in Wikipedia to the color purple this wouldn't indicate that all of Wikipedia's editors prefered that color; it would indicate that I had undertaken sytemically to change all the articles based on my personal preference. And that is exactly what happened here -- a handful of people shared a personal preference, and used a variety of outlets, e.g. this guideline page and particularly FAC, to create the impression that their personal preferred method was the only acceptable one. Of course everyone is entirely well-meaning, but nonetheless, the result is undesirable. Christopher Parham (talk) 05:00, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Nature has references before the punctuation [3]. That's good enough for me. Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 23:02, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

We're aware of that, but what one journal does has no effect on what our house style should be. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 23:16, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
However you are implying that Wiki editors who have published in Nature and use that referncing style in Wiki are not good editors. Arnoutf 08:15, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
That is not implied at all. A good editor works to the rule of the publication. The same editor may also be published in other journals, and most likely put references after punctuation if that journal requires it that way. Or the journal reformats to their own specification prior to publishing. Don't make a mountain out of a molehill. IPSOS (talk) 21:25, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Continuing in this vein, what do you think would happen if an editor submitting their work to Nature insisted that it not be published unless Nature ignore their own standard and used reference after punctuation for the one particular article. It simply wouldn't get published. Everyone is encouraged to submit their work to Wikipedia, provided that they don't object to it being changed. So submit it as you will, but don't object to editors working to rule coming along to fix it. Big deal, this could be done with a bot... IPSOS (talk) 21:31, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
A bot could change all the spelling to one version or another. That does not make it desirable. It was because a bot was altering reference tags that I objected in the first place. There are academic journals which allow the author to pick their own style of reference tag placement, the IRRC is one. There is no reason why Wikipedia guidelines have to be prescriptive over this, as there are clearly a number of editors who do not think that the prescription is desirable. IPSOS you still have not answered my question "would [you] be willing to support the Nature style placement of reference tags providing that is the only style recommended?". As you point out above a bot could be used to do the conversions so your previous objection "That's an incredible amount of makework," does not hold water. What I find strange is that you say that would object to converting to Nature style placements because it would be a lot of work, but you think it is fine to cause a lot of work converting Nature style placements to CMS style placements, chiefly, it seems to me, on the grounds of aesthetics -- which are of course subjective. --Philip Baird Shearer 19:12, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I tried to follow this discussion, but I found myself losing the will to live. My opinion: references should follow the fact they support and therefore normally be before the punctuation. References after the punctuation do not look any better than references before. Since there are strong feelings each way, the style guide should allow for either. Rjm at sleepers 06:06, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

This entire discussion is ridiculous. Just make sure that there are references. The way the references are presented to the reader (note, the reader, not the writer) is apparently a matter of deep personal importance to some individuals. OK, let's make this a reader preference, as we do for date formats. If this is so damn important, someone should be able to write the appropriate code as was done for dates. I personally don't care much what the format is and I really wish you would all spend more time adding references and less time arguing about where they should go. -Arch dude 14:22, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Citations/footnotes before punctuation looks awful. This is obvious. The proper way to do it is to place them after punctuation. This should be obvious to everyone and should come without thinking. 'Nough said. There obviously isn't consensus to change this, as the fact that we are even having this discussion clearly demonstrates. So we leave it as is, which is obvious. Citations after punctuation, just like my signature here comes after this period. Kevin Baastalk 18:00, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
"Citations/footnotes before punctuation looks awful. This is obvious" - no, it's an opinion; and of no more weight than mine, which is to the contrary. Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 20:14, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
Why then the period before the signature Ewulp 03:10, 29 July 2007 (UTC)???
How is your signature analogous to a footnote? Christopher Parham (talk) 03:37, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
It follows the sentence, but is not part of the sentence, and looks awful if placed before the punctuation Ewulp 03:50, 29 July 2007 (UTC).
It implies ownership; it belongs to the sentence or the sentence belongs to it. In either case, the sentence, (or paragraph), is the unit. That which owns or is owned by the unit, is not the unit, and therefore stands outside the Kevin Baastalk 19:21, 29 July 2007 (UTC) unit, and is connected to it, in a visual relationship that implies ownership.

There is, IMHO, one "hard" argument for not using after-punctuation: See e.g. the end of the second paragraph at Peregrine_Falcon#Description. I built that, and therefore I know that USFWS refers to the severing of the spinal column only (it is not a scholarly or very comprehensive ref - not considering the scope of the article), but Terres (1991) and White (1994) provide general and (comprehensive and scholarly) referencing for the entire paragraph.
With after-punctuation style, a reference that pertains to a single fact - maybe a single word - at the end of a paragraph looks exactly the same as one that pertains to the entire paragraph. This loss of information is not OK with this user.
It sure looks unusual, but it maxes out information conferred, which should have top priority for an encyclopedia. And when you realize that (if I have not overlooked something) in-paragraph references come consistently before punctuation in the article, it becomes rather obvious. Dysmorodrepanis 08:35, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

References on subpages

What is the policy on references on subpages? For example, Riddick has no references, but the main pages have references. Would that qualify it as referenced? Slavlin 00:02, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I believe a subpage would have a name in the form "Riddick/Subpage ttle". I didn't notice any such subpages, and I don't even know if they are allowed in the article space. So I suppose you must mean something else. --Gerry Ashton 00:06, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I might have my terminology wrong. I mean pages which are more specific than the primary page, such as characters in a movie or episodes in a series. Slavlin 00:11, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
This is a bit of a controversial issue, and the success of this method depends a lot on execution. If there are any quotes or very controversial statements on the main Riddick page, they probably ought to be supported directly there. Otherwise, my view is that placing the references on the daughter article only is reasonable. Christopher Parham (talk) 04:35, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
The policy is that all material challenged or likely to be challenged, and all quotations, needs a ref, and of course the refs must be on the same page as the material itself. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 05:15, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Quoting public domain sources & plagiarism

I'm having a continued discussion with another editor at Talk:Battle of Washita River about quoting public domain sources. I posted at the village pump a few days ago, & got some comments, but I think this merits discussion here, for possible emendation to the Wikipedia:Citing sources page, specifically, WP:CITE#When you quote someone. I'll begin by copying the discussion from Village Pump here, since due to VP archive policies it might get lost otherwise. --Yksin 19:22, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Copied over from WP:VPP

I came here way of researching the allegation by an editor in an article I'm involved with that it is unnecessary to put quotation marks around quotations of public domain material so long as the public domain source is cited. Such plagiarism would result in a very poor grade in high school or college paper, but I'm having a rough time finding any official policy that Wikipedia might have on it. I do see at the Wikipedia:Forum for Encyclopedic Standards that the proposed standards advocates Honesty, by properly indicating just what it is that is taken from a public domain source &, if it's the entire article, saying so. -- a standard with which I wholeheartedly agree. But can anyone point me to current Wikipedia policy about quotation of PD sources?

By way of background, in the article at issue (fully protected article Battle of Washita River; see also Talk:Battle of Washita River), it was discovered that there were a lengthy quote from a copyrighted source that was not in quotation marks (which has since been removed by an admin as a copyvio); but that there was also an lengthy quotation from a PD source with no quotation marks that had originally been sourced, but its source removed through sloppy editing during an edit war.

Thanks for any assistance you can provide. -- Yksin 19:24, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

You're correct. Any quotation – public domain or not – should be set off with quotation marks or indented in a clearly defined block of text, along with a proper footnote or reference. While copying blocks of public domain text into Wikipedia doesn't expose anyone to a legal risk (no copyright infringement has taken place), failure to use quote marks and cite appropriately certainly carries a moral risk. Plagiarism is absolutely to be avoided in this, as in any, scholarly work.
Of course, the best solution in many cases is to paraphrase and rewrite the material in Wikipedia style. Few public domain sources are appropriately written for a general encyclopedia (though short passages are sometimes relevant primary source material). TenOfAllTrades(talk) 21:14, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
This is a very interesting topic. TOAT - your answer is compelling. I would assert that it is also important to attribute quotes the the proper sources (PD or not) because if I were to use a quote without citation, it would be implied that the work (quote) is my own. the_undertow talk 21:52, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your replies. I also found this, in WP:CITE#When you quote someone, You should always add a citation when quoting published material, and the citation should be placed directly after the quotation, which should be enclosed within double quotation marks — "like this" — or single quotation marks if it's a quote-within-a-quote — "and here is such a 'quotation' as an example." For long quotes, you may wish to use Quotation templates. --Yksin 23:09, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
I find the <blockquote>''copied text''</blockquote> markup useful on talkpages, but find it doesn't sit so well within articles. LessHeard vanU 18:49, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Continued discussion on public domain sources & plagiarism

Since the above posts at WP:VPP, the conversation has continued at Talk:Battle of Washita River#Copyvio & misquoted footnote text removed; plagiarism discussion, with User:HanzoHattori continuing to insist that quotes from public domain sources don't need to be set off as quotes (through quotation marks or block quotes) as long as the source is given. I maintain, as I wrote there, that "The different between public domain & copyrighted text is that with public domain you don't have to ask the copyright owner's permission to quote the text because there is no copyright owner for PD text. But there is no different between PD & copyrighted text when it comes to plagiarism."

I propose clarification of WP:CITE#When you quote someone to say, You should always add a citation when quoting published material, regardless of whether the published material is under copyright or is in the public domain. Really, I think there needs to be a statement about plagiarism. Not that we're writing academic papers here, but the standards of an encyclopedia should had some standards about intellectual honesty.

Comments? --Yksin 19:22, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Clarification: I think what I meant a clarified text to say is, You should always add a citation when quoting published material, and should always set a quotation off with quotation marks or as a block quote, regardless of whether the published material you are quoting is under copyright or is in the public domain. --Yksin 20:13, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Yksin, it's poor form to copy public domain material and stick it in a Wikipedia article. I know there are editors who do it, but it's lazy and it leads to terrible writing, because much of the PD stuff is old (which is why it's PD), and the writing is often POV and fussy. That it's been plagiarized jumps off the page.
Therefore, it's far better to read the PD material, digest it, read some other things, then write the article in your own words, citing the sources as you go along, and quoting when you use the sources' words. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 19:32, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Oh, I completely agree, but User:HanzoHattori does not. At Talk:Battle of Washita River#Copyvio & misquoted footnote text removed; plagiarism discussion he has basically indicated that he thinks it's okay to write entire articles based on public domain sources, quoting them wholesale, but not marking the quoted text as being a quote, just so long as they are sourced. --Yksin 20:08, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
(ec) Direct quotation should always be sourced. I'd suggest "You should always add a citation when quoting published material, regardless of the source or copyright status." -- MarcoTolo 19:35, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
But it also needs to say something to the effect that quoted text must always be set off as a quote -- through quotation marks or blockquoting. There is a different between the source/citation and the quotation marks: HanzoHattori believes that as long as the quoted text has a source citation, the quote itself doesn't need to be marked as a quote. Whereas I maintain that "A claim of original authorship is implied by the lack of quotation marks. Attributing the source is always good & necessary; without quotation marks, it is assumed that the facts discussed in a passage are based on the source, but that the authorship of the exact text was written by the person who placed the text." -- therefore, quotation marks or blockquoting is necessary even when the text is sourced. --Yksin 20:08, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I would agree with that. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 20:14, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Yksin, I agree with your "clarification" - directly quotation requires source attribution regardless of where it came from, and needs to be denoted with quotation marks. The text does seem a bit wordy, but sometimes it needs to be spelled out, I suppose. -- MarcoTolo 20:21, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree with the clarification. I say to my students that whenever you use a verbatim text from the source that text is a quote that needs to be quoted per above. If a fact (or argument) from a source is rephrased in the own words of the writer, a normal reference suffices. I think that is the distinction we are looking for here as well. Arnoutf 20:57, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I too agree with the interpretations by Yksin and SlimVirgin and MarcoTolo. The tolerance of unmarked quotations and unsourced PD has bothered me ever since I joined. I commented at the time, I think, and was ignored, so I'm glad someone has taken it in hand. There's an even clearer case to be made now, with the increased emphasis of following the exact terms of GFDL and knowing where everything came from. DGG (talk) 01:52, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

No, I'm sorry, I think this is wrong. Take a look at [4]. In my opinion this usage of PD material is perfectly fine. We do need to maintain the bit about "where it comes from", yes; it's a given that we don't represent the work of others as our own work. But that doesn't mean we can't use it and modify it, if it's in the public domain, or if it's licensed under a free license that permits modification and we comply with the terms of the license.

Those of you who think that such material needs to be in quotation marks and unmodified -- do you then accuse Wikipedia forks of plagiarism, since they start with WP articles and modify them, without putting them in quotes? --Trovatore 21:10, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Some people are confusing plagiarism with copyright violation; the two concepts are not directly related, although there is some overlap between them. Direct copying of another's work without quotation marks and attribution is plagiarism regardless of whether the copied work is under copyright: it is the taking of another's work and passing it off as one's own. Likewise, copying relatively small potions of a copyrighted work may not be a copyright violation because of the de minimus doctrine, but it is still plagiarism if done without quotation marks and attribution. Trivial changes to the appropriated work does not defeat a valid charge of plagiarism or copyright violation. On the other hand, original writing that uses the information in a prior work, even if the work is under copyright, is neither plagiarism nor a copyright violation—but the source should still be cited. As for Trovatore's example of fork's within Wikipedia, that is not plagiarism because it is not copying another's work; Wikipedia's contents are the work of Wikipedia (or, if you prefer, of Wikipedians). But the topic of this project and this talk page should be how to cite sources in Wikipedia, not morality, legality, or philosophy. Finell (Talk) 15:25, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

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