Wikipedia talk:Conflict of interest

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Where to draw the line[edit]

I was thinking of writing something about humans, but I am a member of that group, so do COI restrictions apply? How about about an organization or group which has millions (or thousands) of members which the editor is one of? I picked a whimsical example, but we really should give guidance on where to draw the line. I think that Tryptofish's "whether the editor stands to gain something tangible (more than just feeling good) from the edits." (above) would be a good place to draw it. Probably excluding extremely tiny or dispersed benefits. For example, if I'm an Italian American, making them look good might tangibly benefit me a bit but that is a very tiny/dispersed benefit. Also, if (as basically required by Wikipedia) an editor contacts the subject of an article to obtain a usable image, and potentially or actually gains a distant friendship as a result, is that now a COI? Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 15:09, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think that what you quoted from me actually answers your question, as long as you note that I said "something tangible (more than just feeling good)". The example of getting an image from a page subject is a tangible benefit to Wikipedia, but not a tangible benefit to the editor who obtained the image (unless the editor was paid for it, which moves it solidly into a COI). --Tryptofish (talk) 18:48, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@North8000This is a question I have been pondering recently. I actually think @TryptofishTryptofish "whether the editor stands to gain something tangible (more than just feeling good) from the edits" suggestion is very reasonable. Is there a way we can get consensus on this and add it to the COI page? XZealous (talk) 12:04, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent idea. This brings it more in line with the real world meaning of COI (which is narrow and severe) which the broadness and vagueness here misses by a mile. Without "something tangible" all that you have is a situation that might induce bias due to any of zillions of things that one might be a subset of or acquaintance with. Which my OP brought up. North8000 (talk) 14:30, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! I'm not sure what exactly we might change on the guideline page. It might be best to consider this in the near future, after ArbCom completes the case that is wrapping up now, where they may be making some decisions that would impact how we approach this. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:39, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks!I just read through the case. Looking forward to seeing some better implementations of COI labeling. XZealous (talk) 05:46, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Some examples:

A Walmart cashier editing Walmart, a BiMart member editing BiMart. - Probably not
The board chair, external relations director, or external public relations or digital strategist for Walmart editing on Walmart - most defenitely.
A lion enthusiast editing on lions/zoos: probably not
A public relations representative or paid agent for Ford Motors whitewashing things from Henry Ford such as nazi connections. The subject to be edited is deceased, but this kind of edit to improve corporate reputation is considered reputation management. So this would be Definitely yes.
Executive director of 501c3 putting puffery and fluff about their organization: yes
Board member for a 501c3 doing similar fluffery or injecting things about the org they're a board member for into related topical articles: yes
Some editors try to make a distinction based on the tax classification of the organization/company being edited; however profit vs non-profit corporate structure is not of relevance. Some of the most egregious public relations editing I have cleaned up have been about non-profits.

Graywalls (talk) 10:56, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Religious COI[edit]

The article mentions COI's of a religious nature. Does this mean someone ay have a COI when editing an article related to there faith? GrayStorm(Talk|Contributions) 23:16, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is the caveat that How close the relationship needs to be before it becomes a concern on Wikipedia is governed by common sense. I think there is very little to be concerned about if a Muslim edits the Quran article and is following Wikipedia rules and policies. Other examples in the policy focus on business, financial, and personal relationships, like writing about one's spouse or about one's business, and those are the COIs that I think genuinely are of interest to us as a community.
Frankly, I would support trimming religious, political from the policy text, as those affiliations simply don't rise to the level of issue that we are concerned with as Wikipedians. The community doesn't have a problem with U. S. Americans who aren't expatriates writing about Andrew Jackson or Living constitutionalism (political "relationship"), or with atheists who haven't been "born again" writing about Richard Dawkins or Hitchen's razor (religious "relationship"), etc. The community has a problem with editors who violate Wikipedia's policies or pillars, and that can and does happen irrespective of religious or political "relationship". Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 00:36, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't agree with trimming them, but they might require some clarification somewhere. Simply being a member of a religion or political party or holding beliefs and views aligned with one of them is clearly not a WP:COI, in the same way that simply being an inhabitant of a nation isn't a COI with respect to that nation. But being part of a religious or political institution would 100% be a COI, especially if you hold a formal role - a sitting senator (or a member of their staff) has a clear COI on things directly related to their political party or the body and government they're elected to; a Catholic priest has a clear COI when it comes to Catholicism. These are "external roles" as described in WP:EXTERNALREL. --Aquillion (talk) 03:34, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I do agree that COI nature should be more specified. Somebody with a close relationship with a subject is not necessarily going to influence the article in inappropriate ways. For instance, a resident of a small city editing a page about their city. As long as the follow policy, the COI has no role in their editing. I think a COI should only be noted if it is obvious and apparent that the editor is using their COI to wrongly influence the article, or has something tangible to gain from their COI editing. XZealous (talk) 12:11, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. The thread a couple threads above also relates to this. North8000 (talk) 14:34, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Confirming a COI[edit]

Clarification on the rules of confirming a COI. As far as I can tell, a potential COI should be put on the WP:COIN. Then there are three possible outcomes. 1) Consensus on the Notice Board confirms COI. 2) Consensus on the Notice Board denies COI. 3) "Silent Consensus" (by virtue of no comments, or not enough comments after 14 days. This means the potential COI is denied.

Is this the only way of confirming and denying potential COI? XZealous (talk) 13:56, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

One note: the discussion would need to go to WP:COIN, the conflict of interest noticeboard, not WP:RSP, the list of perennial sources. Your link is pointing to RSP. —C.Fred (talk) 13:58, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As for the content of your question, there's no way to confirm a conflict of interest by consensus. Consensus can be reached that edits appear to be driven by a COI, and the noticeboard discussion can lead to how to handle said (apparent) COI, but the closest to a confirmation would be an admission or denial of COI by the editor themself, and that's not going to be 100%. —C.Fred (talk) 14:03, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the reply, and sorry about the incorrect link, not sure how that happened. I am asking because I want to know when to remove COI tags on articles that claim COI.
If there is no consensus or a "silent consensus" on the COIN, can I - within policy - remove the COI tag on the article? XZealous (talk) 05:43, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If it's suspicious, but nothing else, should anything be done?[edit]

Here's an example of what I see often at NPP and I assume that others see elsewhere. So the "I" is just an example. An editor has a small number of lifetime edits (let's say 50) Lifetime edit #1 was creating a fully formed article (including references, footnotes etc.) about a living person who is "in the business" (academic, musician, actor, actress etc.) and their lifetime edits consist of creating 2-3 other articles on other people who are "in the business". Of course this raises concerns about UPE and multiple account abuse. But other than this I have nothing else that raises suspicion. Should I do anything with one of those (report etc.). And IMO this guideline should give guidance on that. North8000 (talk) 13:50, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My take on this rests on the fact that you framed this in terms of whether or not to look into it further, as opposed to whether or not there are sufficient grounds to sanction the user (which of course there are not). So I think the most basic way to answer your question is to say that, if you feel like it, you can report it, understanding that the end result might be no action taken – and if you don't feel like it, there's no harm in just waiting and seeing what happens. Given the limited evidence, you would need to approach it in an AGF manner. Probably the best thing is just to ask the user on their talk page in a non-accusatory way, more like you happened to notice their edits and you want to make sure they know about some policies and guidelines. Alternatively, you could open a thread at COIN, but frame it in a tentative way. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:12, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's a pattern consisent with UPE but 'the process' has to be followed, and Tryptofish's advice is sound here. If you're feeling ballsy you could tag the offending articles with {{UPE}} to help accelerate matters, and if (as is often the case) there are notability concerns you could tag for that and/or PROD or AfD them. Bon courage (talk) 03:34, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is difficult to get further with such cases without falling afoul of WP:AGF. However, I've had a surprising amount of success with warnings and questions. Perhaps 50% of the time, if you leave {{uw-coi}}/{{uw-paid}} on their talk page, they never edit again. I interpret that as a sign that they either didn't know about the COI guidelines, or did know and now consider the account 'blown'. Maybe 10% of the time they'll actually make a disclosure. Either way, you can then deal with the articles accordingly. The rest of the time—if they deny a COI and it doesn't seem plausible—as Tryptofish says, ask non-accusatory questions. "What motivated you to create these articles?" or "where did you find these sources/photos?" have worked well for me. If the answers aren't convincing, escalate to WP:COIN or send an email to paid-en-wp@wikimedia.org with any off-wiki evidence. But sometimes you just have to give up and keep an eye out for slip-ups in the future.
Also bear in mind that dealing with the articles can be separated from dealing with the creator: WP:CSD#G13, or a PROD/AFD for WP:NOTPROMO are there regardless of whether the creator has a provable COI. In my experience, non-admins are way too conservative in using them. And if all an editor's creations fall in that category, we can block with {{uw-soablock}} or {{uw-nothereblock}}, again without a provable COI motivation.
A word of warning, though: the pattern you describe is also consistent with editathon participants, especially if the subject(s) are from an under-represented group. They will typically be helped by an instructor to draft an article offline and then publish it fully-formed. They may then attend subsequent events on a similar theme, doing the same thing, without much if any 'solo' editing in between. – Joe (talk) 16:19, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the ideas. Regarding reporting it to paid-en-wp@wikimedia.org I did just that for a situation which matches my OP. And they wrote back: "Thank you for contacting us. It does not appear that there is any private information here, so we ask that you raise your concerns on-wiki through appropriate channels (such as the Conflict of Interest Noticeboard at <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard>)" which sounds like shouldn't write them unless I have non-public info. Which led to my post here.North8000 (talk) 20:18, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

COI label vs Good Faith editing[edit]

"Someone having a conflict of interest is a description of a situation, not a judgment about that person's opinions, integrity, or good faith."

I find this sentence on the WP:COI page to be almost against what the rest of the article is about. The WP:COI rules are there to prevent editing that is promotional, not neutral ect.. As stated by "While editing Wikipedia, an editor's primary role is to further the interests of the encyclopedia. When an external role or relationship could reasonably be said to undermine that primary role."

However, it is possible with someone with a "close connection" to a subject to also edit with good faith and also within policy. It seems like the article would still label this a COI. However, if the editor is still editing within polciy and good faith, wouldn't a COI tag at the front of the article be more detrimental than necessary? The reader would be exercising some level of caution as if the COI had actually effected the editing - when, in this example, it has not. It is possible for an editor with close connection (albeit, we have yet to determine how "close" of a connection would have to apply before a COI label is used) to NOT undermine "that primary role."

As to "where to draw the line" comments have not been specified, I propose to delete or appropriately change the rule (as stated in the start if this topic) to better represent a COI as an editor that is engaging in COI editing that goes against Wikipedia Policy.

I will wait for further comments. Thanks! XZealous (talk) 14:46, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's important to distinguish between:
  • Having a COI – pretty much everybody has COIs, for example with their friends & family and it's not a problem;
  • Having a COI with a topic covered on Wikipedia – also not a problem, except when one is ...
  • Editing on a topic on Wikipedia with which one has a COI. In this case participation is tainted by a COI and WP:COI is relevant.
Bon courage (talk) 14:52, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your reply. My proposition comes from your third point. Should a COI be labeled when a person is editing on a Wikipedia article but still abides in good faith and follows polciy? I have issue with the quoted sentence above, and am proposing that it should be either changed or removed. It seems pointless, and maybe even harmful, to label an article with a COI editor when that editor is in good faith and following policy. XZealous (talk) 15:32, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Any COI-tainted editing is a problem, and can never be good or excusable. The existence of a COI-tainted editor damages the consensus-forming process because it bring outside interests into play. Bon courage (talk) 15:37, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe I am not being clear enough. I am asking about if the "outside interests" don't come into play. This also relates to how we classify a COI.
This: "Someone having a conflict of interest is a description of a situation, not a judgment about that person's opinions, integrity, or good faith." If someone with a close relation to an article they are editing is still editing within polciy and good faith, then the COI maintenance tag on the top of the article does damage to the articles perception, even though the article itself is not affected by any conflict of interest. This is why I would like to clarify that sentence on the page. XZealous (talk) 15:43, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"If someone with a close relation to an article they are editing is still editing within polciy and good faith" ← anybody editing with a COI, particularly an undisclosed one, is running agains the grain of the WP:PAGs and is ethically compromised and/or not here in good faith. Bon courage (talk) 15:46, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@XZealous I see from your contribution history you are arguing with singular zeal at the International Churches of Christ article. Is this what this is about? For anybody tempted to want to smudge definitions in this space I recommend:
For an understanding of what a COI is, and how proper management requires declaration. Bon courage (talk) 16:32, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your book recommendation. I still don't think you fully understand my question. I am not trying to "smudge definitions", or allow COI editors to negatively or improperly affect an article. XZealous (talk) 18:07, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) § Should PAID editors fix inaccuracies in their employer's articles before attempting to fix their competitor's?[edit]

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) § Should PAID editors fix inaccuracies in their employer's articles before attempting to fix their competitor's?. Mokadoshi (talk) 18:00, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Edits by high ranking board of directors[edit]

Organization and corporate board members are often not paid for their board position, so technically they might claim they're "unpaid". Do we consider such "undisclosed paid" or just plain COI? Graywalls (talk) 19:15, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's an interesting question. It probably depends on some specifics. Directors often benefit materially from things that, for example, improve their organization's reputation (and stock price), even if they don't have a salary, and they may receive non-salary benefits. I'd say non-salary benefits meet the spirit, if not the letter, of the paid editing disclosure requirement. But in pretty much any case, there would be a major COI. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:17, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Directors have a fiduciary duty to act in the best interests of the company and its shareholders, so they are unambiguously subject to this guideline. If their officer description includes any editing of Wikipedia and any pay, that would be undisclosed paid editing.--Jasper Deng (talk) 22:21, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If we're talking about the US, non-profit board members are usually unpaid. On Wikipedia, non-profit public relations editing is just as prevalent as for-profit companies. A non-profit org in the US may have a board chair from a for-profit corp. That person may not be getting paid for their board position and even if their position doesn't specifically say "work on Instagram"... "work on Facebook" or Wikipedia, if they make edits on the organization they chair and say "they're just a volunteer" is it appropriate? Graywalls (talk) 11:40, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think that the best way to deal with that is to require that they disclose their COI. To argue with them over whether or not they should further disclose it as paid editing would become a matter of diminishing returns, because their editing can be scrutinized for COI in any case. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:35, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Should we upgrade this to policy?[edit]

We have always treated policies as codification of existing practice. The recently closed Conflict of interest management cited failure to meet the conduct standards expected of an administrator, specifically as pertains to conflict of interest editing and conflict of interest disclosure as sufficient reason to revoke sysop status, with essentially unanimous agreement. So it seems to me it's time to make it official and upgrade this from a guideline to a policy. This would recognize that demanding adherence to this is indeed existing practice, and would be consistent with the community's increasing intolerance of COI editing. RoySmith (talk) 16:26, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@RoySmith: I'm pretty sure we would need an RfC for that. If you plan on starting one, I would most likely support, since I thought that it was already policy. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:08, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I figured the place to start is with an informal discussion and move on to a formal RFC if it looks like there's broad support. RoySmith (talk) 17:49, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think so. Though that case also highlighted some ambiguities in the definitions of paid editing and financial COI, and relatedly this guideline's relationship to WP:PAID (see Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Conflict_of_interest_management/Proposed_decision#Statement_by_Joe_Roe for both). It might be a good idea to try and iron those out first. – Joe (talk) 18:31, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The general principles of the conflict of interest guideline are widely accepted. However, I'm inclined to think revision of the text would be necessary before accepting it as a policy would be possible, in order to have more clarity about what are conflicts and what are acceptable practices. I say this as someone who has been confused by gaps between what the guideline says and what some members of the community expect (and gaps between what different members of the community expect, as this interaction between Donald Albury, Teratix, and Levivich indicates). For instance, the current guideline's examples and language emphasize articles about current (being an owner, employee, contractor, rather than "having been") and close relationships, like an article about a business that one owns or an article about a direct family member. This has led, at least for myself personally, to being surprised to learn there are editors who consider since terminated institutional employment relationships a conflict as well. If this is going to be a policy, I think it's going to need to be shored up to avoid these confusions. I get desires to avoid rules creep, but if the community expects something as a rule but doesn't communicate it, that just creates more muddles and makes it harder to apply, follow, and enforce the potential policy. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 18:35, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding previous employment, I'd say it's not black and white. If I retired from XYZ Corp on good terms and with a generous pension after 30 years of high-ranking service then I would likely still have a COI with the company for at least a few years, especially if I'm still in contact with current employees. Similarly, if I was fired by MegaCorp in a manner that I thought unfair then I would almost certainly still have a COI for probably some months (maybe a double digit number) after my employment ended. However, if I spent a short time temping at Joe Bloggs Ltd or had a summer job at Bob's Burger Franchise then any lingering COI would be measured in weeks at absolute most. If I am a self-employed plumber contracted to fix the toilet at Chain Restaurant then my COI with my client ends pretty much as soon as I walk out the door. This is all generally speaking of course - stronger COIs will last longer than weaker ones for example.
Reading this back, I'd say this is actually a good argument for it remaining a guideline. Thryduulf (talk) 23:06, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but as Joe Roe points out, some ambiguities need resolving before starting the formal procedures. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 20:36, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I could support something along these lines. ——Serial Number 54129 21:04, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
IMO another point point of clarification is what should disclose your COI actually means. I've always interpreted should to be opposed to must. So if an editor fails to disclose their non paid COI, this isn't actually a violation of anything and by itself is unsanctionable. Now if an editor fails to disclose their CoI and then we may have much lower tolerance for any problematic behaviours, so we may block or topic ban them or whatever much more readily but we do actually need something else for it to be sanctionable. However I know from discussions as far back as 15 years or so ago, there are plenty of people who interpret it as a "must" and consider failure to disclose a non paid CoI by itself sanctionable unless perhaps the editor can provide a sufficiently compelling reason for not disclosing. While I haven't followed this case that well, I'm fairly sure I read several commentators who still interpret it as a must and this also seems to be the direction arbconm has lent. Yet I read back in long ago discussions as well as ones when this blew up people who share my view. Nil Einne (talk) 22:09, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just post a simple proposal at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy). Moxy🍁 22:14, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I can envision a slew of problems with trying to make it a policy. It's important not to undercut the harassment policy by giving fuel to those who argue that outing is no big deal if there's a COI; there's been a ton of previous discussion at the harassment policy talk page about the balance between the two. And whereas undisclosed paid editing has an important place in the terms of use, COI covers such a broad spectrum of degrees of "conflict" (just look at some of the talk sections above this one) that it probably lends itself better to a guideline. I recently saw a thread on a good-faith editor's user talk page, where a POV-pusher asked the editor if they were a physician, implying that physicians cannot impartially edit pages about fringe medical theories or quackery. Just imagine where that could go if this were raised to policy-level. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:23, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It wasn't so much NihonJoe's failure to disclose the COI that resulted in the desysop, but the manner in which he did not disclose. It's almost certain that had his initial response to a civil question of "Do you have a COI with X?" been "Yes, and I also have COIs with A, B and C." it wouldn't have reached arbitration let alone a desysop. Thryduulf (talk) 23:12, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Quibbling about should? "Should" is not hard to understand, should means, you should do it. Should is used throughout the consensus policies and guidelines: eg. you "should explain the sides, fairly and without editorial bias" is the nutshell of perhaps Wikipedia's most fundamental editorial policy. That does not mean, it's just fine not to do it. Do it, if nothing else, because Wikipedia, which as there is a guideline means Wikipedians by consensus have asked you to. But really, why not take real stock of what we are doing here, Wikipedia is a publisher and responsible writers and publishers disclose COI. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:52, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
'Should' does not mean 'must', and very few policies/guidelines use 'must'. COI isn't something that there should be any doubt around, so this should be one of the exceptions where 'must' is used. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 16:04, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand the concern people have about inviting harassment. Of course you shouldn't be subjected to harassment, and people who do harass you should be sanctioned. But as I said earlier nobody's making you edit COI articles. One perfectly good way to avoid being harassed about COI is to just not edit COI articles. We've got 6,812,642 articles right now; surely there's other topics which interest you that you could edit. And if you do chose to edit articles with a COI, all we're asking is that you disclose it. If you're unsure if your association meets the definition of COI, just say what your association is and let other people figure out for themselves. This really doesn't seem like an onerous requirement. And if you do find it onerous, then there's still those 6,812,641 other articles. RoySmith (talk) 16:29, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Having been pressed in the past about alleged COI for a topic I did not actually edit articles about (different than the matter I mentioned earlier), I find the concern about harassment credible. When there do exist editors who claim COI investigation justifies harassment (something the Arbitration case, so long as it's been brought up, unanimously agreed wasn't a legitimate excuse), I worry that advice along the lines of just [do] not edit COI articles inadvertently veers a little too near to victim blaming. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 20:09, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In addition to Hydrangeans comment, there was also a case recently of a good-faith editor being subject to borderline harassment, to the extent oversight was needed, when a different editor refused to take "no" for answer when accusing them of having a financial COI. We must be careful not to accidentally encourage or legitimise such behaviour. Thryduulf (talk) 20:49, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would support upgrading this guideline to policy unchanged. Not saying I wouldn't support changes. I'd appreciate a ping when this goes to VPP. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:13, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Something that I don't think has really been addressed so far in this discussion, and needs to be carefully thought through and spelled out before making a formal proposal, is what is the problem that the proposal to make it a policy is going to address? Are we having a problem that results from it being only a guideline, that will be fixed by making it a policy? --Tryptofish (talk) 19:49, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, and that's the main reason I'd support a change to it being a policy. People frequently break out the "it's just a guideline, not a policy" argument when they disagree with a guideline. HJ Mitchell mentioned that in the case. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 20:02, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. So if I restate that, it becomes: the problem that needs to be addressed is that users often treat COI as unimportant, because "it's only a guideline". I think I could get on-board with that. But I still have serious concerns about whether the community will have consensus about enforcing this as a policy. I understand the comments about "should". But consider someone who has a significant and problematic COI, leading them to make biased edits, and they are not disclosing it, and they have always been very careful not to make it possible to dox them. They should disclose that COI, and arguably they must, but if they don't, what do we do to enforce it? As a guideline, we focus on enforcing NPOV, which is is a policy, and enforcing NPOV as a policy also effectively enforces the COI guideline. So, if we take "COI is only a guideline" off the table, how does this change? --Tryptofish (talk) 20:14, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think the community is treating COI like a policy most of the time. This could be problematic for users who are treating it like a guideline and who might think their cases are exceptions. There are, and there will continue to be, COI cases that remain undetectable for a long period, or forever. I don't think upgrading COI to a policy will have much of an effect on those either way. I agree that the quality of the edits made by COI editors is a factor, but it's not just about NPOV. I don't think—if this is what you were implying—that NPOV enforcement is sufficient to handle all COI problems. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 00:55, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The recent arbitration case highlights the complex interplay between managing conflict of interest in editing and upholding our privacy through the harassment policies. While the case underlines the necessity for clear COI guidelines, escalating these to a policy could rigidify processes that need to remain adaptable to context and sensitivity. The intricacies revealed through the case, where concerns about COI were mishandled or led to heightened disputes, show that a flexible approach is crucial. By codifying the current practices into a rigid policy, we risk not only an increase in administrative disputes but also potential misuse in contentious cases, thereby exacerbating challenges rather than providing clarity. The existing guideline allows for nuanced application that can be adapted as needed, which is more appropriate in handling the varied scenarios of COI that arise in an environment as diverse as Wikipedia. FailedMusician (talk) 23:26, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per FailedMusician. I couldn't have said it better. COI isn't a black and white thing. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 00:29, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The biggest reason is that the the COI def here is far too broad and vague. North8000 (talk) 00:56, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. WP:COI is large, unweildy, and not well defined. The only "policy" we need, in my view, are a few items derived from the guideline: Don't write about yourself or associates in main space, don't cite yourself or associates in main space, don't link to places with which you have an association, use the talk page to propose any substantive change in any article where you have an association with the topic. Something like that, short and sweet. ~Anachronist (talk) 07:06, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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