Wikipedia talk:Layout

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[edit] Wikipedia:Layout#Notes, Footnotes, or References

There is a lot of confusion in articles regarding the title(s) to be used for reference sections. It needs to be made clear in the guidelines. Coming here to try to work out which title, I read:

Format: As explained in more detail at Wikipedia:Citing sources#Adding the citation, the format of these sections, their titles, and the specific information in each depends on the citation style used in the article.

Ah, so I need to click the link to get guidance on the title, but when I do, I read:

The full citation will appear in a section at the end of the article (usually called "Notes" or "References", see Layout).

So that takes me back to where I started. My main point is where notes and references are formatted in the main text and appear in a single section below it. This should be called "Notes and references" as that is what it is, and that is what the guideline used to advise. This seems to have disappeared. Consequently editors just call the section "References". Is there anywhere that such a change has been agreed? I raised the point earlier on this page, having had my mention of "Notes and references" in the guideline removed, and being assured that matters were under revision and it would be attended to. But it hasn't. It's just vanished.

I propose some text along the lines of:

When there is only one section for combined notes and references, then title it "Notes and references".

This is a particularly important point, because this is the most common (and easiest) format for citations.

The heading for this section of the guideline might be called:

Notes, Footnotes, References, or Notes and References

Ty 06:23, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Trust me, you are trying to open Pandora's Box with this suggestion. The real answer is found in the introduction at Wikipedia:Citing sources#Adding the citation: Editors are free to use any of these methods or to develop new methods; no method is preferred. Which is followed by a footnote (no. 5) that includes your suggestion but doesn't mandate particular titles. I think the fix needs to be made at Citing sources, not here. Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 19:09, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
I did a fix at Citing sources. So, at least, there won't be an unending loop between the two. Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 19:18, 21 November 2008 (UTC) P.S. - Maybe the text in footnote 5 at Wikipedia:Citing sources#Adding the citation should be taken out of the footnote and placed in the body of the article. Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 23:46, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Under the heading "Standard appendices" there was for a long time this handy summary:[1]

Certain optional standard sections, when used, should be placed at the bottom of an article. There is consensus that the plural form of the section name should be used. Common appendix sections:
  • Quotations (deprecated)
  • See also
  • Notes (or Footnotes)
  • References (or combined with Notes into Notes and references)
  • Further reading (or Bibliography or Books)
  • External links

There needs to be such a summary, as, following the revisions, the reader has to go through all the text and make their own summary. It clearly spells out the options for reference section titling. Now there is no mention at all of "or combined with Notes into Notes and references", but I don't see anywhere that it has been agreed to omit it. Is anyone disputing that where notes and references are combined into a single section, then the title for that section should be "notes and references"?

Ty 04:13, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Two great minds. For a while now I have had on my "to do" list to do a wp:Transclude text section based on wp:Writing better articles#Standard appendices and putting it in this article, the Writing better articles article and the Manual of Style. Maybe you can beat me to it. Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 12:59, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
P.S. - You can find a lively discussion of what to say about the notes, footnotes, notes and footnotes, references, citations, etc. sections at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Layout/Archives/2008 (discussions 18, 19, 20, 28 & 36). Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 13:06, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
I often see notes and references show up at FAC titled "Notes", and I try to keep my hands off things that seem like established preferences ... but I just can't see a reason to try to create confusion in the reader's mind about the difference between a note and a reference, so I always change it to "Notes and references", and I generally don't get reverted. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 13:00, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sister links

Sister project links go at either the bottom or side of the EL section, right? It said at the end, but I see them just as often or more often to the right. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 03:21, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

They should be the topmost item within either the EL section or the SeeAlso section. (topmost item so that there isn't a block of whitespace to their left). If neither of those sections exists, then they should just go at the end of the article. -- Quiddity (talk) 01:10, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
See the last archive (archive 4) for a discussion about whether to restrict most non-Wikipedia and non-Wiktionary (and possibly non-Wikisource) links to EL. "Topmost" and on the right or left? - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 03:09, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
Are you talking about the autoformatting {{wikisource}}-type templates? Because I think that most editors at this page would prefer that this:
Wikisource
Wikisource has original text related to this article:


were replaced with this:
-- WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:19, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
Well, yes, I didn't mean to make a judgment call on whether the templates are a good thing, I'm just noting that that's what the WP:Layout text currently mentions: "the templates (e.g. {{commons}}, {{wikibooks}} ...". That's what Quiddity was thinking of, too, since he mentions a "block of whitespace to their left", which is a good reason not to put these templates last. Tell me if I'm wrong, but I think your thrust is that these templates promote the wikisource et al. links over our wikipedia and wiktionary links, which is counterproductive, since we have effective ways here to patrol the wikilinks but not the wikisource links? (Added: This is not my position; I don't have a position.) If that's the position, it's certainly not unreasonable; I can start a thread at WP:VPP if you like. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 14:23, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure that I understand your question. Presumably the same method of clicking on all the links and seeing whether they link to something appropriate works for both the normal format of external links and for the special, screen-real-estate-eating block templates. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:14, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
Okay, by "screen-real-estate-eating", I take it you don't like them, but we seem to be recommending them in the current text. I'll ask over at WP:VPP#Wikisource. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 03:36, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
They also go at the top of disambig pages. (notime to follow to the other thread currently, will look later) -- Quiddity (talk) 08:17, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
I don't mind them in certain, highly limited circumstances (such as on a dab page). But I don't think that Wikisource's text copy of a book deserves a special, large, graphical box to draw attention to it, when the same text provided by Gutenberg Press is just an ordinary link. The fact that one is hosted by a sister project does not actually make it more useful, valuable, appropriate, or interesting to the general reader. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:30, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
If that were the criteria, we would remove all links to wiktionary and replace them with links to a different "fully-completed" dictionary. The sisterlinks are partially to draw both attention and additional assistance to our other projects.
Wikipedia started 7 years ago in a spirit of Eventualism, and tends to thrive when we keep that in mind. -- Quiddity (talk) 20:19, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
I don't think that Wikipedia needs to prominently advertise sister projects, and it should never link to individual pages that do not otherwise meet our guidelines (e.g., having detailed information for the reader). Links to bad pages at sister projects hurt our readers, and our duty to them far exceeds my interest in promoting another website, no matter how noble its goal. When an editor creates a link to Wiktionary (or any other sister proejct), the editor has the same duty to make sure that the linked page is worth linking to as the editor would incur if linking to any other website in existence. The fact that it's a sister project doesn't excuse linking to a non-existent page, a blank page, a vandalized page [at the time the link is placed: we obviously don't check every link every day], a Wiktionary definition that doesn't provide a definition for the word as it's used in the current context, or other worthless links. Every single external link must be justifiable -- and justifiable in terms of the needs of the general reader of the Wikipedia article, not the interests of the external website. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:45, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
We should happily create links to stub articles at Wikipedia, just as much as we should create links to Wiktionary-stubs.
Don't think of them as "external links", but more as slightly-distant-internal-links - hence they can go in the SeeAlso section, or even within the article's flow if linking to a relevant wikinews article (as noted at the VPP thread), etc.
Seriously, Eventualism is why this whole place exploded in the first place, and a patient community (of readers as well as editors) is why it continues to work well. Read through meta:Conflicting Wikipedia philosophies and understand how integral the eventual and community approaches are, to getting things done. Using only short-term-thinking is selfish and outdated! -- Quiddity (talk) 07:23, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
That said, there is a difference between the sister projects that aim to collect existing knowledge (Wikipedia, Wiktionary, Wikisource, Wikispecies, Wikiquote, and essentially WikiCommons) and those that encourage original writing (Wikibooks, Wikiversity) - which should possibly be dealt with in this guideline (anyone have links to past discussions handy?) - and of course Wikinews exists just to argue about... -- Quiddity (talk) 07:53, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
In general, I do not agree. I link to Wiktionary inline when I think that such a link might be useful for a reader with a limited vocabulary. If the linked Wiktionary page does not actually have a definition for the word as it is being used in that sentence, then there's no point in linking it. If the page provides the "wrong" definition, it would actually confuse the reader. Why in the world would you want me to deliberately link to a page that will confuse or mislead the reader?
Additionally, please note that I haven't entirely rejected links to sister projects: I only say two things:
  • There is no good reason to use a large, graphical template for these links in articles; a plain text link works just as well.
  • Editors creating external links to any page must actually review the page to avoid links to low-quality pages, even when the pages are hosted by sister projects. The mere fact that a page is hosted by a sister project does not excuse the editor from a very basic level of due diligence.
I admit that my opinion is biased in favor of our readers at the expense of other sister projects. I do not apologize for that. As a matter of general practice, I'm very friendly to discreet and useful links to Wiktionary. By contrast, I'm not friendly to fancy advertisements for low-quality/high-POV pages at Wikibooks. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:21, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal

I mentioned this dispute at WP:VPP#Wikisource and WT:GAN#WP:Layout (since this is a WP:WIAGA page) several days ago. I'm adding an RFC now. Per WP:SILENCE, whoever shows up here gets to make the rules (until we're reverted). There's been unresolved conflict here and at WP:Wikimedia sister projects for a while now. That's not surprising; a certain amount of tension is unavoidable between Wikipedia and its sister projects. Wikipedia.org is now is the 4th highest-traffic internet site in the world, which is saying something, considering most hits to google.com and msn.com are actually people who are trying to go somewhere else. There's nothing wrong with people who work on sister sites wanting to divert some of our traffic their way, as long as they do it within the parameters set up by the Wikipedia community. A good summary of what we expect to see on external sites to justifying linking there is at WP:External links. The claim was made over at WT:Wikimedia sister projects that WP:EL doesn't apply, but nothing in WP:EL says that, and I don't see how WP:EL could not apply: the things discussed on that page are common-sense standards with wide and long-standing community support.

I propose that we remove WP:Wikimedia sister projects from Category:General style guidelines, because a minimum requirement for inclusion in CAT:GEN is stability, and there's no sign that WP:SISTER ever has been or will be stable. It represents dynamic tension between conflicting goals; you could say that hosting arguments over that tension is exactly what that page is for, so it's doing its job. By analogy (to a more stable and more widely read style guidelines page), WP:Manual of Style (mathematics) largely reflects the thinking of mathematicians, which often, but not always, matches what other Wikipedians want; this makes it a good style guidelines page, but it doesn't belong in (and isn't in) CAT:GEN.

If WhatamIdoing and others are willing to compromise and continue to allow "fancy advertisements" in some cases ({{wikibooks}}, etc., which have been recommended in the style guidelines and present in article-space for a very long time), then I'm hoping Quiddity and others will compromise and allow removal of WP:SISTER from CAT:GEN, and allow the general style guidelines to be firm on recommending that sister project links (other than wiktionary, which is a special case for several reasons) stay in the External links section and comply with WP:EL guidelines. That is, I'm proposing that we change the current "When there is no External links section" language in the disputed section, WP:Layout#Links to sister projects, to say that an External links section should be created if it's not already there to hold sister project links (again, except Wiktionary). Deal? - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 16:59, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

  • Comment: Why Wiktionary is a special case: Because I have some hope that many editors will read and perhaps respond to this RfC, I want to explain why Wiktionary is a special case: Linking to Wiktionary helps address Wikipedia's dictionary definition problem. When you discreetly link inline to wikt:unfamiliar words, you prevent someone from feeling like there ought to be an encyclopedia article for the convenience of readers with limited vocabulary (assuming, of course, that the Wiktionary page actually provides the relevant definition). Linking to Wiktionary can help Wikipedia remain an encyclopedia. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:50, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment. I haven't contributed to wp:sister, so really cannot speak for that page, however it does look unstable and disputable, and your suggestions sound thoroughly reasonable.
In the section above, I'm ever so slightly veering into devil's advocate territory - I fully sympathise with the immediatist perspective in some scenarios, but prefer to support eventualism whenever possible. E.g. even if the wikt:trend page was a tiny stub, I'd still advocate linking to it from trend. A stub at wiktionary is just as useful/useless as a stub at wikipedia, for a reader (in a general sense).
Here's a tentative attempt at a summation of my perspective (which I believe is widely shared (?)):
-Wiktionary (and Wikispecies and Commons) are definitely the main special-cases that should be linked irregardless of quality. Existence justifies linking, to put it bluntly. Same as interlanguage Wikipedia links.
-Wikibooks and Wikinews and Wikiversity are hot-potatoes that I have no involvement with, and not enough background knowledge of.
-The others (Wikiquote and Wikisource) fall in between those two groups, and should probably be treated as WhatamIdoing suggests (judsged case-by-case according to standard EL criteria (with a little leeway given imho)). -- Quiddity (talk) 21:05, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
Commons is already thoroughly integrated into Wikipedia, so I have to agree. I like your suggestion of Wikispecies; it feels to me like part of the solution to the dictionary definition problem that WhatamIdoing mentions. If everyone is agreed, then can we also agree on what it is about Wikispecies that sets it apart? Is it the fact that it functions in part as a dictionary, and it's largely written by and for specialists? - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 22:13, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to dispute your analogy with WP:Manual of Style (mathematics). WP:MOSMATH is not at CAT:GEN because it is a special purpose style guideline. Anyone who edits mathematics on WP is expected to follow (or try to follow) MOSMATH, and it represents the consensus of not just mathematicians, but also physicists, computer scientists, engineers, educated laypeople, and so on. But comparatively few people edit mathematics articles; if you wanted, you could edit for years and never once edit a math article. CAT:GEN collects style guidelines that everyone should have at least a passing familiarity with; MOSMATH is not such a guideline. In the same way, WP:MOS-ANIME, Wikipedia:Manual of Style (legal), and Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Style guide all represent the WP-wide consensus on how to present their respective topics; but I don't think I've ever edited an anime article, or a legal article, or a military history article, and so I've never needed their MoSs.
That aside, your basic argument is: WP:SISTER is unstable; unstable guidelines should not be in CAT:GEN; therefore WP:SISTER should not be in CAT:GEN. That line of reasoning still stands, (assuming WP:SISTER is indeed unstable, which I am making no attempt to determine) whatever the status of WP:MOSMATH. Ozob (talk) 23:17, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
Yes, that's a much better description of MOSMATH; I've struck my analogy. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 00:44, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

TL:DR. This is something I've followed for a long time and I'd like to weigh in; would you mind shortening the verbiage above to a brief summary of what the RfC is saying, so that I and other new readers can follow? I can't tell what this RfC is asking or proposing: except for images, external jumps to external and non-reliable sites like the sibling projects (when are we going to lose the sexism?) belong in external links. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:52, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Sibling projects, lol! :-) Lets lose the anthropomorphism, not just the sexism! Unless Larry and Jimbo are mom and dad...
Executive summary of the issues:
  1. Are there any Wikimedia projects to which we should sometimes permit links outside the EL section?
    Your answer would seem to be "no" (the media formally known as "images" only link indirectly to commons). Some consider there may be exceptions, in particular Wiktionary.
  2. If there are no other external links, should an EL section be created just for links to Wikimedia projects? (The alternative is to add them to the end of the article.)
  3. In the EL section should the same rules apply to Wikimedia projects as to any other external link?
  4. Should WP:SISTER be a general style guideline?
Answers on a postcard please. Mine: 1. Probably no, but willing to consider Wiktionary; 2. Yes; 3. Yes, possibly with some leniency towards Wikibooks, Wikisource,Added 23:22, 13 December 2008 (UTC) Wikiversity and Commons; 4. No. Geometry guy 18:28, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Hold on, I was poking around at Wikispecies, and now I'm thinking that Wikispecies isn't an exception. Quiddity, how were you thinking that a page like species:Pan troglodytes would be used in the text of a Wikipedia article? Can you give me an example? Regarding Commons, namespaces hosted at Commons are of course fine in the text, but the {{commons}} template should go in External links, shouldn't it? - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 16:52, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree. I found it odd that it was readily agreed that Wikispecies is like Wiktionary. That's a slippery slope. Imagine if there were a Wikimedia project that provided a directory of companies... would it be helpful to link to the directory for companies not notable enough to have a WP article? Nope. Geometry guy 18:28, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
Postcard from the Edgy:
1. Wiktionary is fine if no Wikipedia link will serve just as well; I think that's it. (Some will argue that the {{Commons}} template should be kept inline when it substitutes for images, but that seems to violate the spirit of WP:SELFPUB to me. Also, what's the harm in just linking to additional images as recommended for instance at WP:Image use policy#Animated images?)
2. Yes.
3. Yes, and leniency is okay with me too, but only if you can make the case that the link improves Wikipedia. A Wiktionary link might avoid a link to a Wikipedia page that's little more than a definition; a Wikibooks or Wikiversity link might be an improvement over including details in the article that are demanded by some but that bore or frustrate others.
4. No. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 21:04, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


I thought we were only talking about the {{side box}} links: {{wikispecies}} {{wiktionary}}, {{sisterlinks}}, etc? Hence, that Wikispecies page should be linked to from the end of our Pan troglodyte article, which it is.
Links to the other projects within the article text is not the concern of wp:layout (and I agree that only Wiktionary should ever be linked from within the article text).
My classification-split above was based on the notion that Wiktionary and Wikispecies are: 1) inherently short - and if any content exists it is likely to be helpful (a dictionary definition only needs to be one sentence long to help a confused reader), 2) generally very stable and neutral - essentially just a short opinion-less listing. (in general)
In contrast, Wikibooks and Wikiversity (and to an ambiguous and much-argued extent Wikinews) rely upon original research/writing, which Wikipedia tends to not be fond of... Hence, they could/should be expected to meet our WP:EL guidelines before warranting addition.
Wikisource can be the best example of its kind (ie preferable to a project-gutenberg link) but only once the source document is fully wikified (images added, navigation links added, proofread and verified, etc). Hence, I didn't suppose it met the same criteria of "if it exists, link it" as a Wiktionary/Wikispecies/Commons page.
Wikiquote is our surgically-removed stunted siamese-twin, that depending upon quality can be really useful or utterly atrocious.
The concept of a Wikicompanies seems unlikely, at least until we implement Wikidata, which will both solve and introduce so many problems that it isn't worth prophesizing about here...
Lots of opinion, happy to be corrected/enlightened :) *crawls back towards coffeepot* -- Quiddity (talk) 21:35, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
Postcard from SG (thank you for the helpful summary, Gguy, I pick them well, don't I? 1) Perhaps, in rare instances, wiktionary, but only subject to editor consensus and our normal standards, if the link is shown to be accurate and of high quality. We should never automatically give a free pass to non-reliable sources that anyone can edit. 2) Whatever we call images, they are handled differently: I'm unware of recent changes mentioned, but this is a sibling project where links are in the body of the article. 3) EL applies, and we should never automatically include non-reliable and inaccurate sources that anyone can edit just because they are sibling Projects. As in the examples given many times throughout this discussion of COI, advert and spam text that was removed from the Stuttering article and allowed at Wikibooks, I am wary of all of these outside projects, and because anyone can edit them, we should be even stricter in reviewing or accepting them as External links. We should never be obligated to include them. 4) No. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:47, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
The recent change is that the image namespace is now called "File" not "Image" (and similarly "File talk"). It took me by surprise too, but that's the way of the devs :-) Geometry guy 22:31, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

I think I have made all the points I wanted to make about this subject in Wikipedia talk:Layout/Archive 4#Links to sister projects. I do not think that links to wiktionary and wikisource should only appear at the end of a wikipedia page, but should be placed where they are most convenient for the readers of the Wikipedia article. For example if I am reading an article on one of Napoleon's battles and he wrote a message to a subordinate commander, if that note exists on Wikisource, the most convenient place to link to it is as an in-line link in the sentence where it is mentioned, as this saves having to have the message repeated as a quotation in that section of the article. If it is placed at the end in external links then it is most inconvenient. --PBS (talk) 00:40, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Except for this one request by PBS (and only disagreeing regarding Wikisource), we seem to have agreement on G-Guy's points 1, 2 and 4. Point 3 is a bit deep, and all the points mentioned aren't black-and-white but are relevant to the trade-offs discussed at WP:EL. How's this for a game plan: aim for resolution on PBS's point, then write our results from points 1 and 2 into WP:Layout and remove WP:Wikimedia sister projects from CAT:GEN, then discuss point 3, perhaps at WT:EL? - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 01:24, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Late to the party, but my 2 cents: links to sister projects should generally be both vetted and displayed in the same fashion as external links. I get the convenience argument, but we don't offer inline convenience links to external sites; why should we do so for sister projects? Or, to approach this from a slightly different angle: we would not include an inline link to even an indisputably reliable source; why should we include an inline link to an inherently unreliable source? A footnote pointing to the sister link is no more or less inconvenient to the reader than a footnote pointing to an external link. Maralia (talk) 05:47, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
"but we don't offer inline convenience links to external sites; why should we do so for sister projects?" One reason is that there has been a agreement over the last few years to move quotes off wikipeia into quotes or sources depending on how large they are. If there is no in-line linking to those other wikipedia projects we may as well go back to including the text in Wikipedia articles because from what you write "why should we include an inline link to an inherently unreliable source", only if the full text of the additional article on the slave trade of the 1815 Treaty of Paris is included in a wikipedia article will it be an inherently reliable source. Also WhatamIdoing covers Wiktionary in "Comment: Why Wiktionary is a special case" above. --PBS (talk) 11:51, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
PBS, I wouldn't be comfortable mentioning Wikisource in the text by name, because that seems to me to be "prohibited" by WP:Self-references_to_avoid#Community and website feature references and WP:Self-references_to_avoid#Neutral self-references are acceptable, and has been for at least a year. I use scare-quotes because WP:SELFREF is a general style guideline, not policy, so it can't really "prohibit" something; on the other hand, I can't remember in a year of watching that page and WT:MOS and WP:VPP, or in the archives, where I've seen anyone mount a serious challenge to text or principles of WP:SELFREF. It's a very persuasive page. If you try to solve that problem by making no mention of Wikisource, then we have an WP:EGG problem; the result of clicking on the link is not at all what the reader is expecting. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 14:04, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Dan I don't understand what you have just written. --PBS (talk) 15:54, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Please read the sections I linked. I read what you wrote that's now in the archives, and I can't tell how you want to link to wikisource; do you want something like {{wikisource}} or like [[s:foo]]? - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 16:09, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
OK now I understand as it is a reply to what I wrote previously not to ... One reason is that there has been a agreement... :-) Mainly [[s:foo]] but sometimes {{wikisource}} -- mainly to cater redirects that redirect to a section of a larger article eg Final Act of the Congress of Vienna, but also as a style issue, sometimes {{wikisource}} or whatever can fit quite nicely into the blank area next to a Table Of Contents. As to your mentioning of WP:SELFREF I don't see it as relevant to sister project templates and links (see the second from last section) and if it did then mentioning sister projects at the end of the article would be just as wrong as mentioning them anywhere else in an article. We all know what WP:SELFREF was written to advise on and I see this as an extension into an area which it was never intended to cover. --PBS (talk) 14:56, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

←How does this not apply to mentioning Wikisource, Philip? "While we're often inclined to mention the Wikipedia community that we are all part of, as well as the website features we use in creating the articles, these confuse readers of derivative works." Also, Wikisource can't appear as a reference because it's not a reliable source; doesn't linking directly to something that looks like it's trying to be a reference, but isn't a reference, give exactly the wrong impression? - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 15:39, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

As I said see the second from last section (WP:SELFREF#Examples of self-references as defined by this guideline). "Also...." That is just as true for links to Wikipedia articles. --PBS (talk) 12:53, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
That's a list of "self-references in Wikipedia's main namespace that are not encyclopedia-neutral", and includes the sister site, disambig and NPOV templates. The point of that section is: sometimes we use these things, but always remember that there's a tradeoff, because they are self-references, so there has to be a compelling reason to use them. Not only is there not a compelling reason to put the wikisource template in the text instead of the EL section, there's a compelling reason not to: it looks like a reference, but it's not one. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 14:03, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
You have deeper insight into the meaning of guidelines than I do. When I went to WP:SELFREF#Examples of self-references as defined by this guideline, I had absolutely no idea what it was talking about or recommending. What does "The following is a list of self-references in Wikipedia's main namespace that are not encyclopedia-neutral. They should at least be acknowledged or marked as self-references but not necessarily be deleted as they serve their purpose here on Wikipedia." mean? We've been told already by the guideline that self-references should be encyclopedia-neutral. So these are examples of things that the guideline opposes, but we are told not to delete them necessarily. How does one acknowledge a self-reference? "This is a self-reference"? Doesn't everything "serve its purpose"?
Why is it that style guidelines are often so badly written? I'm reminded of the adage "Those that can, do; those that can't, teach." (Those that can't teach, teach teachers, and those that can't even do that write guidelines on teaching teachers!) The first example in this section is "The word "Wikipedia" anywhere in an article, unless used where Wikipedia is actually the immediate subject of discussion in the prose." What miserable wordy prose! Geometry guy 18:42, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
Agreed that this section of this style guideline is terribly written, but how do you get from there to "All style guidelines are terribly written", or even to "This is evidence that no one is paying attention"? Maybe we were paying attention, but the default is to leave things alone until and unless someone asserts that the words are causing an actual problem. You're asserting that, so after we're finished here and we've handled your point #3 over at WT:EL, I'll head to WP:SELFPUB WP:SELFREF next. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 19:13, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
WP:SELFPUB or WP:SELFREF? We were discussing the latter, but actually the former does seem more relevant to the issue of links to other Wikimedia projects, since they are self-published. Anyway, I did not say "all style guidelines are terribly written"; some have even been copyedited recently :-) Geometry guy 19:35, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
Okay, all are terrible except the ones you copyedited :) I replied on your talk page. My position on the section that Philip invoked is that it's not written very well, and we'll go have a look at that, but if it means something, and that something has consensus, it would have to be that some templates are self-referential, so use them only when there's a good reason. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 19:46, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
Here's an approximation to what I think it should mean, in an example: {{NPOV}} states "The neutrality of this article is disputed", and links to talk-space with the injunction that the template should not be removed until the dispute is resolved. That's a self-reference, and isn't "encyclopedia-neutral" because of the talk page link and the "disputed by whom?"/"resolved by whom?" issue (Wikipedians). Should such a self-reference be in a Wikipedia article? Obviously not: Wikipedia articles should comply indisputably with WP:NPOV! Acknowledging or marking the self-reference is pointless: resolving the dispute is the priority, and the template is there to mark the failure of the article to comply with guidelines and policy. Geometry guy 21:53, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Okay, moving along; people are of course welcome to disagree with what we've decided here, but we seem to have agreement for the moment except concerning what advice we want to give on when to include or not include links to sites run by Wikimedia in External links, which should probably be discussed at WT:EL#Continuing discussion from WT:Layout. I have removed WP:SISTER from CAT:GEN and haven't been reverted. After this discussion at WT:EL, next up is WP:SELFREF#Examples of self-references as defined by this guideline. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 17:01, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Leaving the debate about WP:SELFREF, but highlighting my mention of we include in-line links to other Wikipedia article even though they can not be used as references. I have edited the replacement text that Dan has introduced. I am not particullarly fussed about the templates, but like wikictionary I think there are times when links to wikisource is appropriate. I suspect this has a lot to do with the types of articles that I edit. One of the areas that I edit are treaties and being able to link to an article in the original source of a treaty is useful. The example of linking to the day orders written by commanders in the Napoleonic wars is also useful and something were hyperlinks have such an advantage over the printed page. For example there is a historical dispute about Napoleon's orders to Grouchy and what was or was not said in the 24 hours in and around 18 June 1815. It would be useful to link to sources of the despatches in question for those who wish to read what was said as well as the opinions of the historians on both sides of the dispute (Let the facts speak for themselves).
So having given that explanation, I have co-edited the guideline. I have also added one or two other changes to the text, the most significant of which is that these things can also be added to a "further reading" section as well as external links section. --PBS (talk) 10:36, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
I'm on it, I'll try to get some kind of resolution today. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 14:05, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
I'm talking with people over at Wikisource, mostly here. I've heard enough so far to conclude that Wikisource is a special case; I don't know yet what to recommend. I'm going to change the text back as I had it (that is, I'm partially reverting PBS's version after discussions with him), but saying "except Wiktionary and Wikisource" until we can get this figured out. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 03:20, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
The problem with the current wording is it says in the first paragraph. "Links to Wikimedia sister projects ... including Commons ... . ... Images and other media hosted at Commons are not restricted to External links" is contradictory. That is why I structured the first sentence "Other than Commons, ..." --PBS (talk) 12:04, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Happy holidays, Philip. I was trying to keep it short since it's not the main point, but newer users might be confused, so I clarified the sentence; feel free to revert or rewrite it. In other news, I haven't found consensus on Wikisource. One problem is that Wikisource has potential to be something other than what it is; it's almost entirely a collection of very old primary sources in various states of repair and disrepair, but there's no reason why it couldn't contain recent, high-quality secondary sources, given the world-wide trend towards free information. Some people rebel at the idea of excluding Wikisource from, say, the references section on the grounds that "it's probably useless" as a reference; it doesn't have to be. Another problem is that, for instance, User:Raul654 just got Akutan Zero through FAC with the Wikisource "advertisement" in the text. I haven't asked him what his thinking was; too scared. I wasn't clear on what you were asking for earlier concerning multiple links to the same primary Wikisource document; if you've got an experienced editor submitting an article to a review process, that's one thing, but for the typical editor, an invitation to make multiple links to a primary document, interspersed with their "description" of the document, is going to be an irresistable invitation to WP:OR. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 15:18, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
"irresistable invitation". No it is not, it is an encouragement not to include original source in Wikipedia articles. For example there is a clear distinction between the commentaries on a treaty and the treaty itself. Take article 77.1 of Protocol I, The ICRC commentary (3183-3191) on Protocol I makes clear, this is not a complete ban on the use of children in conflict. The ICRC had suggested that the Parties to the conflict should "take all necessary measures", which became in the final text, "take all feasible measures" which is not a total prohibition on their doing so. At the moment the source for Protocol I is not on Wikipedia source. If it were would it not be useful to link to article 77.1? See for example the work I have been doing on the Peace Treaty of 1815 on Wikipedia Source one can link to any article for example Additional article on the slave trade Slave Trade (That happens to be a section heading but one can link to any article eg ART. I.) --PBS (talk) 16:53, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

←Should we be moving online sources to Wikisource, is that its function? I don't have a position. I take your point that we don't want long primary text passages in articles, in general. I left a message on Raul's talk page asking his position on "Wikisource has original text..." logos in articles, in light of WP:SELFREF. If we can't find consensus on anything involving Wikisource, I don't know what we can do other than say something noncommital here at WP:Layout like "Links to Wikisource are considered on a case-by-case basis; see Self-references to avoid and Primary, secondary and tertiary sources." - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 19:44, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Raul replied at User_talk:Raul654#Wikisource. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 22:35, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
IN other words, all of this verbiage to end up right where we started. Sister links go in External links. IAR applies (as in all guidelines) if there is a very good reason. In other words, no change. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:27, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Change location of section "Notes, Footnotes, or References"

Resolved. Added to list of perennial ideas that never gain consensus.

Location or sequence of section "Notes, Footnotes, or References" would be the best to be very bottom after "Navigational footers, categories, interlanguage links etc" (which is in dispute though now). Current layout recommends "Notes, Footnotes, or References" is after "See Also". When too much number of notes, footnotes, or references in sentence of body sections with [X], the number of item or line displayed on the screen in "Notes, Footnotes, or References" section is countless. Now, naturally, the reader of Wikipedia is reading from top "Headings and sections" to "see Also", then he or she encounter lengthy "Notes, Footnotes, or References" section. In order to proceed to "Further reading", "External links", " Links to sister projects" and "Navigational footers, categories, interlanguage links etc", reader need to scroll screen to reach these sections.

Basically, thanks to HTML Hyper Link jump capability, clicking the mouse the note of [x] navigates "Notes, Footnotes, or References" section, then reader back to body sections after reading item or description in "Notes, Footnotes, or References" section by again click "^". This jumping capability from [x] click and the back to main section by "^" of Wikipedia is advantage of layout and HTML Hyper Link functions. As far as reader is able to reach to and back from "Notes, Footnotes, or References" section by click mouse, "Notes, Footnotes, or References" section is not necessarily to follow "See also" section.

I understand that "Notes, Footnotes, or References" section follows to "See Also" section is conventional layout in paper type documents that reader is forced to turn page(s) by hand. Contrary, in Wikipedia, go to "Notes, Footnotes, or References" section then back to main section is done by mouse clicking. This implies "Notes, Footnotes, or References" section is not necessary to follow "See also" section, in stead, "Notes, Footnotes, or References" section to be any sequence in sections. This is the reason I suggest "Notes, Footnotes, or References" section to be very bottom or end of other sections.

When layout "Notes, Footnotes, or References" section is placed at the end of article, no body do not mind how many items listed within "Notes, Footnotes, or References" section. "Notes, Footnotes, or References" section lists up number of items of footnotes, it forces reader to scroll the screen to reach beyond "Notes, Footnotes, or References" section that is very inconvenient for reader. Therefore, I suggest "Notes, Footnotes, or References" section to be extreme end of each sections that reader may not be annoying scroll the screen.--Namazu-tron (talk) 18:33, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
I hope you all not stick to the style or layout of legacy type paper documents or encyclopedia. We are participating to be the editor for new era of encyclopedia, Wikipedia, to long long-lasting, based on the fact that Wikipedia have only 7-8 yeas history.--Namazu-tron (talk) 00:32, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to propose that the suggestion to rename or change the order of endsections be added to the list of perennial suggestions. I'm not sure why people think this is a good idea, but it gets proposed a lot, mostly by new editors. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 20:59, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
Add the suggestions to hide the references or put them in a scrolling box. References are the heart of the article. If someone does not want to read them, then it is real easy to skip over them. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 21:12, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
It's very easy to skip through screenfuls that you don't care about: Just press the space bar or the "page down" button, depending on your setup. Dank55, I like the idea of adding this to PEREN. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:27, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
Do not tell me how to operate PC. We are not talking for skilled editor of Wikipedia. I am talking how to improve for millions of reader of Wikipedia world wide, including novice or beginner of PC.--Namazu-tron (talk) 00:32, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Ugh, no. The current order makes much more sense: links to other articles within Wikipedia come first, then references pertaining to the article, then links to other external material, and finally navigational templates. Anomie⚔ 02:35, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
I agree. --Eruhildo (talk) 05:20, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
See WT:PEREN#Moving, renaming and hiding endsections. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 15:10, 16 December 2008 (UTC)


since when has this guideline been placing "See after" in front of "References"? Is this a recent change? "See also" has always come after "References", but in front of "External links". We shouldn't change a guideline just like that if it potentially affects literally hundreds of thousands of articles. --dab (𒁳) 20:16, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
I almost never see See also after References, and not just at FAC and GAN; I didn't see it when copyediting for WP:0.7. Like we said, people show up about once a month with their own ideas of where the endsections should go. See WT:PEREN for discussion. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 21:11, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
The answer is "since 2003, when it was first mentioned in this guideline." ==See also== was called ==Related topics== at that time. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:35, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

this isn't just "my own idea", it's how I've been editing literally thousands of articles over the past four years. I don't mean to obsess over this, but we clearly seem to have a de facto divide here. --dab (𒁳) 17:21, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Verification

I am not proposing to change the name of the section in which references or otherwise are made in articles; I am proposing to change the currently titled section in WP:LAYOUT from "Notes, Footnotes, or References" to "Verification".

  1. There is or have been controversy over what the default title of this section should be (given the lengthy title). This section is founded upon Wikipedia's policy towards verification (WP:V). Therefore the title of the section in the layout guideline should reflect that with a similar title.
  2. The name is unusually lengthy and does no enumerate all the names that are used for this section "Note and references", "Citations", "Bibliography", so on. This is an NPOV issue.
  3. In the contents of this section, it is possible to enumerate the names that have been used or that are status quo, or the second option would be export that responsibility in keeping inline with the status quo among articles (similar to the Furthur reading and Works controversy). ChyranandChloe (talk) 05:06, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
Are you thinking that the section title should be "Notes, Footnotes, or References"? I'm sure this is saying that the section or group of sections would be "Notes" or "Footnotes" or "References". Some articles use "Footnotes", but this is now more commonly titled "References". Some articles have a separate "Notes" section. As to the use of "Verification" as a title— I'm not aware of any style guide that would propose that use. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 15:25, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
I believe that C&C is asking for the section in this guideline, WP:Layout#Notes, Footnotes, or References, to be renamed WP:Layout#Verification, with (nearly) the same content.
Perhaps I'm going out on a limb here, but I assume that C&C's major point is to avoid "unduly" promoting the long-standing consensus that ==Bibliography== should contain a list of the author's own works (alternately named ==Works== or ==Publications==), instead of the various </references> used to create the article. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:04, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
The reason that I like the existing system is that the most common section names are listed right there, in the recommended order. I think that this makes the sequence more immediately obvious at a brief glance. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:39, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
That is point two of my argument. The first one establishes how it was founded and thus why it should be named after such, and the third one proposes a possible concession to information loss (it's not essential unless you feel that it is an issue). The statement "in the recommended order" does not reflect the views of the entire community, which this guideline is suppose to represent. I have my own views, which we have discussed before, and so do others like Bzuk. There is also no absolute consensus on the exact order or the which to enumerate. There is, as you've cited, a de facto practice; but the central point is that all leans towards "Verification". And this policy should remain independent of potential disputes for stability reasons. ChyranandChloe (talk) 03:52, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
Actually, the fact that this is the order which is very widely followed is precisely why it should be documented here: "Documenting actual good practices" is the #1 source of all Wikipedia policies and guidelines. It is not necessary to have either universal agreement or universal compliance for a practice to be considered normal. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:49, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
In my opinion, the documentation of "good practices" is accomplished in the prose of the section, which defers it to "[...]the citation style used in the article". No where in the prose does it state or imply that "Notes", "Footnotes" and so on are actual or common practices; and extending it to the title can therefore be unfounded. "actual and good practices" is certainly subjective; what "Bibliography" and "Citations" lacks in popularity, it gains in rationale. For example, and as stated before, "Bibliography" may be confused with "Works"; and there are several, equally effective, methods not enumerated in the title. My central point is in NPOV, and in the foundation of the section (WP:V); the title should reflect that. ChyranandChloe (talk) 06:49, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
You know, C&C, when exactly 0% of responding editors support your idea, then implementing it anyway isn't so much a "bold edit" as an "anti-consensus" one. I've reverted your change. You tried to get consensus, but it's not there. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:50, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) You have to remember that there are only two people in this conversation; so the consensus is much more unclear or limited than against. If a few more people would join, I would be much more obliged to go with whatever they view is best for WP:Layout. ChyranandChloe (talk) 01:47, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
Myself, yourself, and Gadget850: to quote a Robert Asprin character, "I count real good up to three."  ;-) WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:01, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
I'm not entirely polarized on the issue, I'll let it go; but you have to remember how bad our last COI got and how stability is key to good policy. "[...]I've now been in fifty-seven states? and have one left to go." — Barack Obama [2] I'm just glad he can count that high. :-) ChyranandChloe (talk) 04:12, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Notes-Footnotes-References vs Notes-Citations-Bibliography

F.Y.I. - see the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Citing sources#Notes-Footnotes-References vs Notes-Citations-Bibliography

[edit] What is the rationale of putting navboxes at the very bottom?

Wouldn't it make more sense to put them immediately before the references, i.e. at the bottom of the "See also" section? They include links to within Wikipedia, also, they are things the reader might want to "see also". -- Army1987 – Deeds, not words. 13:33, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

One rationale is that that's where everyone puts them, and it would be inefficient to create a recommendation that they should be moved around from where they are now. Another rationale is a page layout principle commonly followed in the publishing industry: since navboxes are generally colored boxes, they look better on the bottom or side of a page, giving the appearance of a border, than in the middle. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 15:07, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
It also places them next to the category links, which might otherwise get missed. Navboxes, SeeAlso links, and Category links, are all of a similar intent. -- Quiddity (talk) 20:41, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

[edit] See also

I don't agree that "see also" should be exclusively limited to links that do not otherwise appear in the article. In a long article it is useful to gather the main links in one place to aid navigation. For instance, I might remember that I saw in the article black hole that there was a link to an article about the radius of black holes but I cannot remember that that article was called Schwarzschild radius (and even if I did remember little chance of spelling it right on the first attempt). As it stands I have to reread the entire article to find it again. I think this should be reworded to gives editors some degree of leeway in using their common sense. SpinningSpark 11:03, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand your problem. The text says: "Links already included in the body of the text are generally not repeated in "See also"; however, whether a link belongs in the "See also" section is ultimately a matter of editorial judgment and common sense." How can you possibly interpret that as allowing no leeway and banning common sense? WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:50, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
I don't interpret it that way, my problem is that some other editors do and delete useful links. I think that it would help if the case of long articles was specifically covered. Similarly, it is my view that in a long article it is ok to wikilink a term at the first occurence in more than one section. SpinningSpark 20:19, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
Have you attempted to discuss the matter with them? It's possible that they have good reasons for removing these links that are every bit as valid as your desire to keep them, or that they're simply unfamiliar with our (actual) guidelines. A remarkable number of people read only the first few words of a section in a guideline and then ruthlessly implement their mistaken version of it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:50, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
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