Talk:Ben Houchen

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On 4 May 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved from Ben Houchen, Baron Houchen of High Leven to Ben Houchen. The result of the discussion was moved.

Requested move 4 May 2024[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (non-admin closure) Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 00:35, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ben Houchen, Baron Houchen of High Leven → Ben Houchen – Peerages do not need to be included in the article titles of British peers if they are mainly known by their personal name. See e.g. David Cameron, Doreen Lawrence, Rowan Williams, Margaret Thatcher, and the guideline WP:NCBRITPEER. Ben Houchen falls into this category, as evidenced by Houchen's page on the Tees Valley Combined Authority website, and the recent mayoral election coverage:

A.D.Hope (talk) 19:24, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with this as he seems to primarily be known as Ben Houchen. MiaClarkWebb (talk) 20:13, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support and I considered doing this myself. Killuminator (talk) 22:15, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Strong oppose The Lord Houchen of High Leven is a peer of the realm and according to House of Lords guidance should be properly addressed as such - https://members.parliament.uk/member/4991/contact Dn9ahx (talk) 22:22, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What people choose to call themself is irrelevant, no? Wikipedia doesn't follow external style guides, common name definitely trumps here. Couruu (talk) 16:30, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support - Obvious move given the subject's notability as a local politician and not a baron. No need for disambiguator either. Onetwothreeip (talk) 22:57, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. He is referred commonly to as Lord Houchen and sometimes Ben Houchen. He does not have the notability of David Cameron or Margaret Thatcher, who were both former Prime Ministers and raised to the peerage. These are poor examples and do not assist. UnicornSherbert (talk) 00:07, 5 May 2024 (UTC)sock strike[reply]

Do you have any examples to back up your claim? The press, and indeed Houchen himself, seem to prefer 'Ben Houchen' to 'Lord Houchen' or 'Baron Houchen of High Leven', that's all. A.D.Hope (talk) 09:44, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is also a weak argument because other people like Louis Mountbatten, 1st Earl Mountbatten of Burma and Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington are referred to as their full title. In my view, all peers should have their name and title on the article heading and WP policy should be changed to ensure this. In any event, my comment stands, he is commonly referred to as Lord Houchen. Even see for instance [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] UnicornSherbert (talk) 13:36, 5 May 2024 (UTC)sock strike[reply]

All but the Sky article refer to Houchen as 'Ben Houchen' in their titles, which would suggest that's his common name. A.D.Hope (talk) 14:05, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

~~Unless you are blind, then you will see that every single one of the articles I cited says "Lord Houchen" or "Lord Ben Houchen" in them. UnicornSherbert (talk) 14:12, 5 May 2024 (UTC)~~sock strike[reply]

It's really the headline that matters. Newspaper articles have a tendency to vary a person's name to avoid it becoming repetitive, but the name used in the headline is the one they expect readers to recognise. A.D.Hope (talk) 14:17, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have opened a separate discussion for the entire policy to be rewritten as it is incoherent, inconsistent and allows peers to be incorrectly referred to, as well as leaves open significant discussions over something as simple as a peers title which could allow for users to better spend their time on proper editing. UnicornSherbert (talk) 14:19, 5 May 2024 (UTC)sock strike[reply]

Right. Well, we'll see how that goes. A.D.Hope (talk) 14:23, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support - in media coverage of recent election almost always described as Ben Houchen, not Lord Houchen. The House of Lords guidance is more for if you're formally writing to him or introducing him at an event, which will always tend towards the obsequious. Stortford (talk) 05:52, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I also note that in the official polling declarations he was only listed as 'Ben Houchen' with no mention of the peerage: [6] Stortford (talk) 05:59, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support - '"Baron Houchen of High Leven"' gets just 1400 google hits to 340,000 for '"Ben Houchen" -"Lord Ben Houchen"'. There will be namesakes, of course, but it is very clear from perusal of the results and key sources that the WP:COMMONNAME is Ben Houchen, as you would expect for a politician. The current title is not in compliance with WP:TITLE - insufficiently concise. Arguments that he goes by "Lord Houchen" are irrelevent as that is not the current nor the proposed title. Lord Houchen is more common than the full title mind, with 67,700 hits. Still well short of the COMMONNAME though. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 18:36, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Strong support - As per WP:NCBRITPEER, "peers who are almost exclusively known by their personal names" should be referred to by the common name with the title in the first line. I have never seen him referred to as either Lord Houchen or Baron Houchen of High Leven, outside of formal environments (e.g. Hansard). Couruu (talk) 16:28, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support Per WP:COMMONNAME. Houchen has just been involved in an election which attracted significant media interest and he was never referred to as "Baron Houchen of High Leven" or "Lord Houchen". AusLondonder (talk) 20:22, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I reversed an undiscussed move on this that was made last year, following a request at WP:RM/TR, only to have that reversed again. So I don't know what the default stable title is, it's borderline, but either way it definitely should reside at the shorter name per WP:COMMONNAME. — Amakuru (talk) 11:56, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Article should not have been moved in the first place. Foolishness. Cambial — foliar❧ 20:00, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Bias[edit]

There are a couple of loaded sentences in here - like a 2021 reference to the economic impact of the corporation being "speculative" 86.159.197.179 (talk) 14:04, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]