Talk:Criticism of Twelver Shia Islam

Why is there an article on criticism of Twelver Shia Islam but not Sunni Islam?

This article exists for the sole purpose of collecting Sunni arguments against Shi'ism while there is no sole article for Shi'a arguments against Sunnism.

• Sunnis in Iraq also have groups that self-flagellate, including during the mourning of Muharram
• Sunnis have also practiced taqiyya in their history as it is an Islamic practice.
• Sunnis also practice Nikah mut'ah which comes from the Qur'an.
• Shi'a suffer far more violence and persecution than Sunnis which this article makes it seem as though Shi'ism is more sectarian.

RamHez (talk) 05:46, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

@RamHez You'd to the Wikipedia community a great service by writing a reliably sourced article on that. Albertatiran (talk) 19:41, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

How is my edit not an improvement

@StarkReport the two sentences would have two totally different meanings & thus implications Belomaad (talk) 15:43, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

@Belomaad, The original wording simply indicates that Nikah mut'ah was practiced during the times of Muhammad and Abu Bakr and does not imply their endorsement or recognition of its validity.

If the sources appended to the section support the wording you propose, feel free to reinstate it. However, if the proposed wording is not directly supported by the sources, it constitutes original research. StarkReport (talk) 16:45, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

@StarkReportIt maybe better to just add another source since the appended source isn't clear enough Belomaad (talk) 17:13, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

@Belomaad, If your going to use Britannica as a source, at least reflect it accurately. The source stated "All Muslim legal schools agree that mutʿah was recognized and practiced in the Prophet Muhammad’s time. Most Sunni Muslims, however, think the practice to have been abrogated by Muhammad."

Whereas, you again wrote previous OR: "by some Sahaba who weren’t aware of its prohibition by Muhammad, so the second Caliph, Umar ibn Khattab, made sure everyone became aware of the prohibition by Muhammad." StarkReport (talk) 05:05, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

@StarkReportwhat is wrong with what I wrote?

Abrogated means that it was allowed then became forbidden.

Or you want me to write that Allah forbade it? I don't think it should matter that much and would sound less academic. Belomaad (talk) 09:51, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

@Belomaad, Two problems: 1) Britannica states that Umar considered it to be valid and a guard against prostitution, whereas you wrote the opposite.(WP:OR) 2) Your version has an attribution problem.

Now, among the most commonly heated assertions between Shia and Sunni is whether Muhammad allowed or prohibited this type of marriage. In these cases, it's best to present a particular viewpoint from one side with attribution rather than stating that the marriage was indeed prohibited by Muhammad as a fact, which I think violates WP:Wikivoice. StarkReport (talk) 10:23, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

@StarkReport

It says that

Most Sunni Muslims, however, think the practice to have been abrogated by Muhammad. In consequence, Sunni leaders have denounced mutʿah as simple prostitution.

I agree that I should state that this is the Sunni (and Zaydi and Ismaili) view and not the Twelver view. But I thought it should be obvious to the reader, (otherwise, Twelvers won't practice Mutah). Belomaad (talk) 10:49, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Recent additions in Fatimah's section

In those recent additions by @Belomaad,

the source "Al-Fisal fi al-Milal wa al-Ahwa' wa al-Nihal ("The Separator Concerning Religions, Heresies, and Sects"" was found to be in Arabic, so I couldn't verify what is states.

The source "Talbees Iblees ("The Devil's Deception")"[1], does not contain anything about Fatimah, Gabriel or Twelver Shias for that matter, on its page (71-72).

I cannot locate the source "Mukhtasar al-Sawa`iq (“Summary of the Lightning bolt)" by Muhammad ibn Abd-al-Wahhab.

The possible unreliable source "AbdurRahman.Org's": "Fataawaa of Muslim Scholars on Khomeini: Khomeini’s assertion that Wahi (Revelation)------" is redirecting to a missing page. Same with the source "Shia Believe in Holy Books After the Quran: Mushaf Fatima, by Ibn al-Hashimi."

I'am thinking of removing those new additions. StarkReport (talk) 05:37, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

@StarkReport you are reading a different edition so the pages won't match. You might want to use ctrl + f. Belomaad (talk) 09:57, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

You might want to use google translate or a similar tool for the books that aren't available in English.

The links also redirect me to a missing page. Probably, a typo. I will fix it Belomaad (talk) 10:03, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't recall adding any link for the latter source. But it may be a good idea to add one, in case the reader wishes to use the book for further reference Belomaad (talk) 10:05, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

@Belomaad, I don't think it is a "different edition" problem. But are you 100% confident that the sources indeed contain what you wrote? Otherwise, I think this is just a "Source: Trust Me Bro" scenario.

Pinging @Albertatiran, @Ghazaalch, @Iskandar323, for their thoughts. StarkReport (talk) 10:30, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

None of these users know Arabic. I think you might want to ping @Ahendra instead. Belomaad (talk) 11:00, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

@MezzoMezzo is also proficient in the language Belomaad (talk) 12:43, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

hi.. my Arabic is basic and not too advanced, but i will try to help...

• regarding the talbees Iblees, i will need time to check. but the link u provided is english one
• regarding Mukhtasar al-Sawa`iq, i find this one instead, its not written by Muhammad ibn Abd Al Wahhab, but instead its written by Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya. so im not sure this is the same book with the one mentioned above.
• regarding,Al-Fisal fi al-Milal wa al-Ahwa' wa al-Nihal ("The Separator Concerning Religions, Heresies, and Sects), i need links to read its content

for while, perhaps you could check about this as consideration Islamqa answer in English from Muhammad Al-Munajjid regarding some criticism of Twelver Shia .Ahendra (talk) 13:11, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

@StarkReport I can't speak to this case with certainty but Belomaad's poorly-sourced contributions to Umm Kulthum bint Ali were swiftly removed by an admin when I reported this user to ANI (Admins' Noticeboard/Incidents). Here again, Belomaad's sources may not qualify as reliable and secondary. As just one example, the above Al-Fisal is obviously a primary source. More useful info about what constitutes a reliable source can be found in WP:CITE and related pages. If you need help about sources, I'd be happy to help out or you may also report any suspicious sources to Reliable Sources/Noticeboard. Albertatiran (talk) 06:10, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

the page you linked doesn't mention anything about primary sources.

Al-Fisal isn't a primary as it was written 100s of years after the event of writing the Mushaf took places. In this case, a primary source would be a hadith or a verse or a compilation of such thing. In fact, the book is commenting on secondary sources. Belomaad (talk) 06:38, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

@Belomaad, based on my understanding, the WP:Burden currently rests with you, until Ahendra verifies the primary Arabic source. As for the sources: "Talbees Iblees (The Devil's Deception)" and "Mukhtasar al-Sawa`iq (“Summary of the Lightning bolt”)", It's best if you can confidently quote specific parts in them which support your written material here.

Additionally, "Sunnahonline" appears to be an unreliable blog site. The only source I am uncertain about is "Mahajjah.com."

Until then, the substantial amount of material you have added will need to be removed. StarkReport (talk) 09:57, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Sunnaonline is not the one being quoted but rather the book which can be accessed on Sunna online Belomaad (talk) 11:32, 30 July 2024 (UTC)