This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Evangelos Zappas article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Greece, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Greece on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GreeceWikipedia:WikiProject GreeceTemplate:WikiProject GreeceGreek articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Romania, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Romania-related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.RomaniaWikipedia:WikiProject RomaniaTemplate:WikiProject RomaniaRomania articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Olympics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Olympics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.OlympicsWikipedia:WikiProject OlympicsTemplate:WikiProject OlympicsOlympics articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Anthropology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Anthropology on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.AnthropologyWikipedia:WikiProject AnthropologyTemplate:WikiProject AnthropologyAnthropology articles
The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to Eastern Europe or the Balkans, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
You must be logged-in to an autoconfirmed or confirmed account (usually granted automatically to accounts with 10 edits and an age of 4 days)
For some reason there has to be a RfC over such a petty dispute. Currently, the article includes seven sources saying that Zappas may have been of Aromanian ethnicity. However, some users have insisted on keeping a link in the lead to the ethnic Greeks page for referring to Zappas. This is POV considering that the first subsection of the article should make it very clear that his ethnicity is disputed. It is also non-standard practice, I've just clicked on "random page" and gotten five biographies: Usha Uthup, Roger Clinch, Adam Simac, Juan Padilla (second baseman) and Martín Caballero. As you can see, none of these articles have a link to the article on the subject's ethnicity on the opening line. Not sure why should this article be an exception.
In my opinion, the link should be deleted. I am not asking for the word "Greek" to be removed, only the link. Zappas did have Greek national consciousness and was a citizen of the Greek state that appeared later during his lifetime. SuperΨDro10:28, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose removal of link Numerous sources refer to him as an ethnic Greek, and all agree he identified as a Greek. There is simply no valid reason to remove the link. Khirurg (talk) 15:18, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Numerous sources refer to him as an ethnic Greek and numerous sources refer to him as an ethnic Aromanian. Why do they not matter? SuperΨDro20:02, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Nobody disputes that. What I am disputing is if that justifies ignoring seven reliable sources contradicting the claim that he was a Greek. SuperΨDro00:05, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support removal of wiki-link. Zappas has been described as an ethnic Aromanian by multiple reliable sources, having a link to the ethnic Greeks in the lead of his article is simply not acceptable and goes against WP:NPOV. Ahmet Q. (talk) 16:41, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: Should the lead of this article refer to Zappas exclusively as an ethnic Greek? It appears you are wrong since Greek refers to his nationality, Zappas had Greek citizenship. I can't understand why you are mixing up ethnicity. The claim is wrong. What's most important is that bibliography agrees that Zappas was a Greek entrepreneur. His ethnicity is described in the relevant section of the article.Alexikoua (talk) 02:04, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The article Greeks that is linked in the opening sentence of the article is about ethnicity. It includes Greeks in Greece, Cyprus, and also people with Greek blood in countries like the USA, Germany, etc.. Meanwhile, the language section at the infobox includes only Greek as a spoken language, not Aromanian, Albanian, Slavic Macedonian and other minority languages in Greece. The linked article is about ethnicity so the discussion is about ethnicity. Zappas did have Greek citizenship and I don't dispute that. But note that several of the five biographies I linked above are from countries that are not nation states, such as Canada or India, and therefore their demonym at the opening sentence refers to nationality and not possibly to ethnicity. And it is not linked. Why make an exception here? SuperΨDro09:59, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support removal of link, Zappas ethnic origin is a matter of dispute. The link should lead to Greek instead.
Comment: The problem doesn't lie in the link, but in the article Greeks itself. It discusses Greeks as an ethnic group and/or nation in a way which excludes many people who are Greeks today. This is unfortunately something which the editors who prefer its current state do not fully grasp for what it is - a fundamental flaw. Zappas may have genuinely considered himself Greek in the modern, post-Byzantine Romios sense and this is how most people who call themselves Greeks today acquired such an identity, hence the link should be there but he definitely didn't believe that he was a descendant of ancient Mycenaeans - something which isn't true for many people who call themselves Greeks and which - even as a belief - played no role at all in them calling themselves Greeks. Hence the problem lies in the article, not in the link. In my opinion, another solution would be to change the target article to Greece instead Greeks, hence emphasize his participation in the nation-building of modern Greece and maybe call him Greek and Romanian (target article: Romania) to link it with his participation in the nation-building of Romania. In any case, I think that the term Greek should link to something.--Maleschreiber (talk) 23:10, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Linking to Greece is absurd and a non-starter. Are you going to go around and link every Greek person to Greece instead of Greeks? Should we also link every Albanian from what is now Albania to Albania instead of Albanians? Obvious nonsense. he definitely didn't believe that he was a descendant of ancient Mycenaeans - I didn't think it was possible to create so extreme a straw man, but there you go. Khirurg (talk) 00:59, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Adding a link to Greece was an initial proposal in the discussions previous to this RfC. However there were two different Greek states during his lifetime, the First Hellenic Republic and the Kingdom of Greece. He was also not born in either. Also, I think it's easier to remove an unorthodox change from a biography article that breaks the common practice than to expand the scope of a whole ethnicity article and set it apart from the rest of pages of the same topic. SuperΨDro10:16, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support removal of link Zappas was one of many people with fluid identities at that time's Ottoman Balkans. While he ofc was primarily a Greek, his Greekness could be different from today's ethnicity concept. The article already says that he took multiple identities (Albania as the place of birth, Greece as ethnic origin and Romania as the place he made his adopted country). Furthermore, Marinov 2013 says that "For some nineteenth-century Orthodox intellectuals, it is difficult to say to what extent they were Greek, and to what extent Albanian—not to mention the case of the philanthropist Evangelis Zappas (1800–1865), who is also claimed by Romania". Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:32, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment the problem appears to lie in conflating two attributes, (ethnicity and nationality) but failing to make clear in text and links how one is using the term at any point. Clearly, if in the opening sentence 'Greek' refers to ethnicity, then his ethnicity is unclear and/or disputed and should not be linked to as if it were clearly and wholly 'Greek'. If the word refers to nationality and/or self-described identity, then the text fails to make that clear and the link does not go to the state he was a citizen of/chose to give his loyalty to. The average Eng WP reader is accustomed to a person's nationality being in the opening sentence as a primary defining feature, their ethnicity being later or absent commonly. I appreciate that isn't always possible in a historical and/or Balkan/Ottoman context, but many readers are going to be misled or confused if the text, the links and the justifications don't align. Pincrete (talk) 12:42, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Omit link. The subject has been described both Greek and Aromanian in reliable sources. The current text "was a Greek patriot" doesn't refer to ethnicity. Linking to Greeks would indicate that Zappas was ethnic Greek, which would violate NPOV. Zappas's ethnicity is not relevant to their notability, and hence should be omitted per MOS:ETHNICITY. (Summoned by bot) Politrukki (talk) 15:00, 19 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
,_early_1900s,_Central_Africa,_Democratic_Republic_of_the_Congo,_Pende_people,_wood,_fiber_-_Cleveland_Museum_of_Art_-_DSC08700.JPG){kind=small}
