Talk:Iris Menas

This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.

If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page.

Biography: Actors and Filmmakers

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
	This article is supported by WikiProject Actors and Filmmakers.

LGBTQ+ studies: Person

	LGBTQ portal This article is of interest to WikiProject LGBTQ+ studies, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all LGBTQ-related issues on Wikipedia. For more information, or to get involved, please visit the project page or contribute to the discussion.LGBTQ+ studiesWikipedia:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studiesTemplate:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studiesLGBTQ+ studies articles
	This article is supported by the LGBTQ+ Person task force.

The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them, which has been designated as a contentious topic.

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

This article should adhere to the gender identity guideline because it contains material about one or more non-binary people. Precedence should be given to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, anywhere in article space, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources. Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. Many, but not all, non-binary people go by singular they pronouns, which are acceptable for use in articles. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Former, pre-transition names may only be included if the person was notable while using the name; outside of the main biographical article, such names should only appear once, in a footnote or parentheses.

If material violating this guideline is repeatedly inserted, or if there are other related issues, please report the issue to the LGBTQ+ WikiProject, or, in the case of living people, to the BLP noticeboard.

Requested move 29 August 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved.(closed by non-admin page mover) estar8806 (talk) ★ 02:30, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Iris menas → Iris Menas – Despite some sources saying Menas prefers having lower-case spelling of the name, all the reliable sources available seem to use the correctly capitalised 'spelling' of it - requested move to open a discussion. Alssa1 (talk) 18:28, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Variety source you link to uses lower-case letters in the text, though not in the headline. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:59, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: IMDB and Rotten Tomatoes are hardly reliable sources, and as Cordless Larry mentioned, Variety uses lowercase in the body (and even mentions that they use lowercase). It is well established that they want lowercase DeputyBeagle (talk) 09:34, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 20:19, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom.–MinisterOfReligion ^(Talk) 18:35, 5 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Soft oppose based on sources. IMDB and RT aren't reliable, are typically WP:UGC and as they have standardized profile pages might actually have fixed case for the names in their stylesheets (although I can't be sure). The only other source I recognize here (Variety) actually says the subject prefers lowercase letters further down and uses them in-body, but chose to keep their title format consistent as they are probably required to. We might need better sources to support this. ASUKITE 13:53, 9 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Soft support. The article cites three sources (Variety, UPI and KWCH). Two of those three use conventional capitalization of the name. The third one, as noted above, has a mixture. Wikipedia avoids unconventional capitalization unless it is consistently used in independent reliable sources, which does not seem to be the case here. Even if ignoring IMDB and Rotten Tomatoes, the sources don't show consistent usage of lowercase. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 19:04, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The relevant section of the Wikipedia guidelines seems to be MOS:LCITEMS. It says "Wikipedia articles may use lower-case variants of personal names if they have regular and established use in reliable third-party sources (for example, k.d. lang)." (emphasis added). (For the first word of a sentence, it says "the first letter of the personal name should be capitalized regardless of personal preference"; I just edited the article to apply that rule to a few sentences that started with "menas".) Note that the first sentence of both the k.d. lang and bell hooks articles does not start with a lowercase letter, and when lang's surname is used at the start of a sentence, it is capitalized, and the bell hooks article never uses her surname at the start of a sentence. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 19:27, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah the article definitely needs some rejigging. I think the difference between menas and hooks though is that bell hooks is a pen name, so we can start the first sentence with her real name. It's a bit different with menas

We should def reword the rest of it though to avoid their name being the first word in a sentence DeputyBeagle (talk) 22:48, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth, there are other sources using lowercase eg Slate and Cinemablend

I think the issue is that they're still early into their career so the quantity (and debatably quality) of the sources covering them is lacking, except ones with stock templates such as IMDb DeputyBeagle (talk) 22:46, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support. There's already a source explaining the preference, and it's better for consistency to follow our manual of style while acknowledging that preference.~T P W 14:17, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

My 2 cents

To cite WP:COMMONNAME here is gross. menas is a person, not a city or an object. They have made clear their preferred spelling of their name. Why would we respect a person's preferred pronouns and yet not respect a person's preferred spelling of their own name? Curbon7 (talk) 02:39, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Name Stylization

I’ve edited the page to note the subject stylizes their name with all lowercase letters, as opposed to just starting the article with all lowercase. This fits Wikipedia guidelines for similar situations such as “P!nk”, and reflects the decision to move the article as discussed above. 198.166.142.125 (talk) 20:39, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've undone your changes as I don't think they're correct for this page. Your example of pink is different as that is their stage name, as opposed to menas who just has a way they want their legal name spelled.

The most relevant example would be bell hooks where it says "(styled in lowercase)", but that is also a pen name

I can't find any other precedent for this situation, so imo we should find a way to rephrase to not put the name at the start of the sentence rather than adding a capitalised variant DeputyBeagle (talk) 11:13, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 26 November 2024

It has been proposed in this section that Iris Menas be renamed and moved to iris menas.

A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly.

Links: current log • target log • direct move

Iris Menas → iris menas – Title of the main page currently shows as iris Menas, with a lowercase "i" and a capital "M". I realize this actor prefers their name to be in all lower case, but it seems odd it is stylized this way. Also suggesting a lowecase "i" and lowercase "m". Tinton5 (talk) 07:11, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: the {{Lowercase title}} template has been removed, so the title of the "main" (subject) page now shows as Iris Menas. Also should note the page move request above from just last year. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 08:26, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Move to iris menas. Theparties (talk) 07:38, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support - A clear preference has been expressed by menas for lowercase. This capitalisation for names has been done before eg bell hooks and is well sourced for menas[1][2][3][4][5] DeputyBeagle (talk) 11:19, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I just edited the article again to apply the WP:LCITEMS guidance that "When such a name is the first word in a sentence, the rule for initial letters in sentences and list items should take precedence". This is not an expression of an opinion about the appropriate title for the article, and it is also not intended as opposition to the previous suggestion to "avoid their name being the first word in a sentence". Surveying independent sources cited in the article, taking a look back at the Variety article, it seems to use lowercase except at the beginning of sentences and in the headline, so I think it counts as favoring lowercase. Slate and Out favor lowercase. UPI and KWCH have conventional caps. (I just added the Out citation, but not because of its capitalization.) That makes the count 3–2 toward lowercase among those, which tilts toward lowercase but not by an overwhelming margin. Other sources were mentioned here on the Talk page, but it doesn't seem clear whether those were cherry-picked for their capitalization styling or not. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 22:22, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For transparency - yes, the sources were cherry picked for capitalisation. My intent isn't necessarily to show that it's unanimously used, but that there is enough usage of it to show a precedent DeputyBeagle (talk) 08:49, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Pure stylisation. Wikipedia generally avoids pandering to this. In addition, most of the sources I can find use Iris Menas. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:48, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]