Talk:Islam in Myanmar/Archive 1

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I cannot accept to put this BURMESE MUSLIM or MYANMAR MUSLIM under Islam in Burma. I feel that ETHNIC CLEANSING of BURMESE MUSLIMS is the work of BSPP/SLORC/SPDC and BURMESE BUDDHIST CHAUVINISTS.

Now the great Myanmar Wiki editors are treating us the same way.

If Wikipedia agree or approve that kind of ETHNIC CLEANSING, I will have to leave this newfound job of voluntary contribution of articles to you.

They could accept Panthay and Malay Myanmar Muslims but not the Burmese Muslims as ETHNIC MINORITY GROUP.

It is amusing to read the funny and childish discussions by some editors that to use Burmese is an insult like N word. (May be they need to please their political masters. If not they would be arrested again! We all Burmese knew that Myanmar is associated with SLORC/SPDC and most of the opposition is using Burma as a sign of resistance. Calling Burma is not an insult to anyone. If so, try to avoid using themselves Bama/Bamar/Burmese. May be start to use Myanmarese? Burmese Indian Muslims or Myanmar Indian Muslims as separate But Burmese Malays and Panthays could be mentioned. Ne Win’s BSPP/SLORC/SPDC is illegally denying the registration us as separate ethnic group without success. Germans killed 6 million Jews but failed. I am not asking for any special rights but no one can deny that we are Citizens and in Democracy, please read UN articles in Wikipedia for the citizen rights and Individual Freedom. No need to fight anymore. SPDC and you could win the battle now but YOU ALL will fail in the bigger war.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Darz kkg (talk • contribs) 08:17, 6 February 2007.

Ne Win era policies were directed against ethnic groups that migrated to Burma during the colonial era, namely the Chinese and Indians. Such policies were not discriminatory solely on religion; settlement of one's ancestors prior to the colonial era constituted citizenship and deference of the NRCs. Ethnic discrimination is a sad reality of the Burmese government's policies, but I honestly support the merge of the two articles because Myanmar Muslims consist of many smaller ethnic groups like the Panthays, who are clearly not related to say, the Rohingya and Indians, with the former of Sinitic origins and the latter two of Indo-Aryan origins. Ethnic groups are based on common ancestry, while race is based on physical and genetic similarity. Myanmar Muslims fulfill neither qualifications. For example, the government nor does anyone else differentiate among Karen Christians, Karen Buddhists, and Karen Animists, because all have ethnolinguistic similarities, in spite of religious affiliation. --Hintha 08:49, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

As the initial contributer of Muslims in Burma, I agree to the merger now. Even if you cannot accept us as Ethnic Minority we are seperate Group. As for the citizenship, you are too late. Go and talk to British at that time that Bama want the land only, not the people they brought inside. Ha ha! You would not get the Independence in time. General Aung San could not accept this. When Dee Doke U Ba Cho talk about this, Bo Gyoke shouted back, "I will not be in that party, you all do your self. Even before getting Inependence if we do this on Indian and Chinese brothers we would become DOGS" (this is not my word. Rpt Bogyoke's words.) Don't talk rubbish Ko Hintha, now your pretendings as an academician disappears!

NAME OF PROMINENT MUSLIMS ON THE ARTICLE

The names stated in the article seems debatable. Anybody can give me reference on that? XubayrMA (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 19:33, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

EVOLUTION OF MYANMAR MUSLIMS.

Race. Ethnic Groups.

Successive Myanmar Military leaders repeatedly claim that Muslims in Myanmar (Burma) could not be called, registered or enlisted as a separate race. They are giving various reasons or lame excuses for that attempts of Ethnic Cleansing.(I hope Wikipedia could stay neutral and resist on this issue of the attemps by some of its own Burmese Chauvinist editors to erase my Burmese Muslims/Myanmar Muslims and Burmese Indian Muslims/Myanmar Indian Muslims --

1.Muslims in Myanmar (Burma) are mix-blooded people, not pure race as Burmese Buddhists.
2.Muslims are migrants only and not the original people of the land.
3.Muslims are scattered all over the country without owning a separate state as other races of Burma.
4.No race can be formed base on the religion.
5.By calling Kala, meaning Indian, the authorities equate all the Muslims with the recent migrants of Indians under the British or even trying to accuse as fresh illegal immigrant.
6.The hidden agenda is their deep-seated fear of propagation of Islam. They are scared of future Muslim dominance although it is not possible.

Now let us look at the “ROOTS OF MYANMAR MUSLIMS.”

Forefathers of Myanmar Muslims had landed in Myanmar (Burma’s Rakhine, Ayeyarwady delta and Tanintharyi coast) as early as ninth century, roughly about 200 years before King Anawrahta of Pagan established the first Myanmar (Burmese) empire in 1055 AD.

He later concurred the King Manuha and Buddhist Mons of Thaton. He then invited Shin Arahan to propagate Buddhist teaching among people of Pagan. So the Buddhist religion reached Burma much later than the arrival of Islam. But we had to admit that the Hindus and Buddhists arrived the lower Burma (not owned by the Burmese or Myanmar yet) earlier than the Islam.

Because of that uniting force of Buddhist Religion, the original three Ethnic Minority Groups of Pagan: Pyu, Kan Yan and Thet assimilated homogeneously into present Myanmars. So, we hereby want to challenge present Myanmar Generals, especially BSPP/SLORC/SPDC and cohorts Burmese Chauvinists to deny that the Buddhist Religion forms the backbone of the formation of Burmans or Myanmars.

Even the Chinese, Indian Hindus, Indian Muslims, Japanese and some Anglo Burmans if they convert (or pretend to convert to) Buddhism they would be homogeneously assimilated into Burmese Buddhists. Burmese Chinese like General Ne Win, General Khin Nyunt, President San Yu etc are accepted as “PURE BURMESE” and given hightest positions. When SHIA MUSLIM U Sein Win and Sunni Dr Maung Di renounced Islam, they were accepted into the mainstream administration, Sein Win was even given PM post. Mg Di deputy Ed. Minister. There are many mixed –blooded people in Myanmar disguised as PURE Bamas. During the SPDC’s present registration on issuing National Identity Cards, if any said he or she is Buddhist no more questions, easily accepted as pure Bama. But once the religion is stated to be Islam, even if he or she is recently converted into Islam, they refused to accept as a pure race.

It is not a simple, minor issue but the very important thing of denying a citizen’s right to posess a National Identity Card. Without it could not travel inside or outside MYANMAR/Burma. And there follows all the problems in education, business transection etc etc,

1.Race.
2.Ethnic Minority Group and,
3.Citizen.

We should analyze which groups of people are deserved to be called or who have the sole right to be called a separate Race, separate distinct Ethnic Minority Group or a real Citizen.

1.Are only so called “pure race” should be called a race and not so pure or mixed blooded people could not stay together to form a RACE?
2.Or are those “pure blooded” races are really pure enough?
3.Are those “Original Owners of the Land” really true or just mere early Migrants, reserving and monopolizing the place?
4.Are migrants always regarded as migrants without entitlement to any Human Rights or Citizens’ Rights, even after few generations?
5.Well-established migrants, after already accepted as a citizen are still foreigners?
6.Are descendents of migrants and local mixed marriages still alien after few generations?
7.Could a conqueror of the war just annexes the new territory and regarded the locals staying in that land as Foreigners and started the ethnic cleansing?
8.Could that conqueror brought back the prisoners of war back, for various reasons e.g. slavery, to serve in various positions, civil or army, and allowed to settle in the heart of the country as permanent aliens for few generations?
9.Could the kings, after accepting the helping friendly allied forces, allow them to settle in his country, gave land, property and even brides as rewards after the victory, but a few generations later kicked them out as lousy migrants?
10.After staying few dozens of years or few centuries under a foreign powers as a colony, once got the independence, could the new local government start to kick out the migrants entered during the period of colony?
11.Could they erase the real historical fact of gaining their independence after all was obtained with the help of so-called migrants?
12.Should they neglect the promises of fair and equal treatment they had given to those Migrants and the colonial masters before gaining the independence?
13.Is a religion could never form the backbone of a race?
14.Is descendents of migrants could never form a separate or distinct race?
15.Is a religion could never form the backbone of an ethnic minority group?
16.Is descendents of migrants could never form an ethnic minority group?
17.To be regarded as a race, ethnic minority group or a citizen, is there any rule to be the original settler or owner of a land? Country? Or a State?
18.Have the Migrants no chance to be accepted as citizens?

Although all of the above questions lead to undeniable truth, we like to highlight the above axioms with the following facts. They are taken from the world’s historical theatre and our Myanmar (Burmese) geography and local history.

Race.

A group of people with a certain sense of itself and cohesiveness is called a race. There is usually a commonality or shared values such as: social, culture, attitudes and ideals.The most important bond and determining all these is a religion. There is usually a common language, literature and a territory.

It may be a ‘pure’ race (homogeneous) e.g. Arian, Mongoloid or African. Or a ‘mixed’ race (heterogeneous) that is a mixture of few tribes, clans or minority groups. They mixed, stayed and struggled together with the sense of unity.

Let us look at how Islam deals with this sensitive racial issue as Arabs were and are so proud of their race.

Islam not only recognises absolute equality between men irrespective of any distinction of colour, race or nationality, but also makes it an important and significant principle, a reality.

All Human are descendants of one father and one mother. The division of the human race is neither meant for one nation to take pride in its superiority over others nor is it meant for one nation to treat another with contempt or disgrace, or regard them as a mean and degrade other races and usurp their rights.

South Africa Zulu is the combination of many tribes and clans by a powerful worrier in nineteenth century. So it is obvious that they are not homogeneous. African Americans & Asian Americans are regarded as recognized Ethnic Minority Groups but there are many subgroups under them. Among Asian Americans, some of the bigger groups such as Indian Americans and Chinese Americans could be subdivided according to the clan, dialect, religion and their home state or district. So it is very obvious that non-homogeneous or more correctly, heterogeneous factor could not rule out the legality of a race.

Owning a territory, land, state or country is not very important to become a race. Israelis and Palestinians have no homeland at all earlier in the long world history. Actually they were not the original owners of that sacred land. Just because they had no land, we could not deny the fact that, the Israelis and Palestinians distinct and famous races. They were even mentioned in three holy books and their racial conflict was and is the world’s most important and dangerous problems.

Most of the American Ethnic Groups also have no separate states.

Or some Ethnic Groups’ historical territories may be occupied by different nations or countries at present.

We like to give some examples.

Mons of Myanmar, Thailand and Cambodia, now occupied by three separate countries.

Like some of the Myanmar Ethnic Groups, the Malays, Indonesians and Polynesians had descended from the Yunan But few historians are thinking about the possibility of reverse migration from Australia side. But some Polynesians have got some mixture of Africa.

But even recently some genetic experts found out that there is some evidence that the Chinese originally descended and migrated from Africa. Actually the “Bush People” featured in ‘ God is crazy 2’ are a little bit yellow and their features are some what like Myanmar or Mongoloid. (One of the Myanmar Doctor, Anaesthetic in Namabia wrote in the Myanmar Magazine in 1998).

Karens of Myanmar and Thailand. Shans, Siam and Southern Chinese (Nankhan) divided into the races of Myanmar, Thailand, Laos and some Chinese ethnic minorities.Nagas of Myanmar and India are exactly same races in different countries. And many Ethnic Minority Groups commonly found in China and India are also found and recognised as prided or precious nationals of Myanmar especially in Kachin and Shan States. So the relation of the citizenship for the same race staying in different country is totally different. Relation between the race and history of land ownership is also irrelevant. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Darz kkg (talk • contribs) 02:39, 7 February 2007 (UTC).

And the population of the Myanmar Muslims increased during the British rule of Burma because of new waves of Indian Muslim Immigration. This sharply reduced since 1941 because of Indo-Burman Immigration agreement, and totally stopped after Burma (Myanmar) gained independence in Jan.1948. So Myanmar Muslims are at least staying in Myanmar from 50 years and some of them are staying for more than 1000 years already.

Myanmar Muslims are descendants of Arabs, Persians, Turks, Moores, Indian-Muslims, Pakistanis, Pathans, Bengalis, Chinese Muslims and Malays intermarried with local Burmese and many ethnic Myanmar groups such as: Rakhine, Shan, Karen, Mon etc.

Muslims arrived Burma as travellers, adventurers, pioneers, sailors, Military Personals (voluntary and mercenary), and some of them as prisoners of wars. Some take refuge (from wars, Monsoon storms and weather, shipwreck and some for other various unforeseen circumstances). And some of them are victims of forced slavery. Some of them are professionals and skilled personals such as advisors to the kings and at various ranks of administration. Some are port-authorities and mayors and traditional medicine men. Some of them are good at various vocational skills, culture arts etc. Mixed marriages, intermarriages and assimilation process of throwing away of almost all their foreign languages, foreign dresses and foreign culture slowly shaped them in to Ethnic Myanmar Muslim group of today.

But they had drawn a line in the ongoing process of assimilation. That line of limit is their religion, Islam.

As practising Muslims they could not go beyond the limit of tolerance of Islamic principles.So Myanmar Muslims threw away Urdu, Bengali, Chinese, Hindi and all other foreign languages. Even Arabic is learned just to read Holy Koran and for prayers. Myanmar Muslims speaks Myanmar as their mother tongue, wear Myanmar dress and even have an official Myanmar name as well as Islamic Arabic name. Because they could not compromise their faith in Islam in matters such as: only eating halal foods and drinks, marriage, divorce, inheritance, and other customs which heavily depend on Islam e.g. circumcision, funeral and burial rituals etc. So Myanmar Muslims could not assimilate homogeneously as Chinese, Hindus and others, except for those who convert or renounced Islam. Complete Assimilation of a minority group always need a compromise of their tradition, their culture and some of their rights. ETHNIC MINORITY BASED ON RELIGION.

In Myanmar (Burma), General Ne Win ordered not to allow the registration of the Muslims as Burmese Muslims (Myanmar Muslims) and present Military Junta not only simply follow his tradition and laws but tightening their grips on Burmese Muslims. Although the whole world accepts that the persons who worships Islam are called Muslims. Ne Win and present Junta refused registration based on religion. They refused to allow the Muslims of Burma to be registered as Myanmar Muslims (Burmese Muslims). They are forced to register as Indian hybrid, Pakistan hybrid, and Bengali hybrid, worshipping Islam. So in order to avoid been labelled or registered or discriminated as a foreigner or a lower graded citizens, a few of the Myanmar Muslims even enlisted or registered themselves as Burmese-Buddhists. Actually the religion is the most important factor in the formation of the Ethnic Minority Groups in the whole world. This is really the most explosive issue in most of the Ethnic- conflicts, leading to wars around the world throughout the history. In former Yugoslavia: Serbs, Croats Kosovo and Bosnia differences are mainly based on religion. In Lebanon, Christian and Arabs are the two opposing Ethnic groups. Even among main religions, sometimes different sects fought each other e.g. Sunni Muslims and Shia’ Muslims, Roman Catholics and Protestants of North Ireland are fighting based on religious differences in their Ethic groups. In Sri Lanka, Buddhist and Sinhalese are fighting. In Indonesia the people from Bali are different from other parts of Indonesia because of the religion only. They remained Buddhist without converting to Islam. Because of the religion, they could not assimilate totally with Indonesian Muslims. They maintained some of their customs and rituals. The main difference of Indian and Pakistan is religion. Internal Racial Riots and continuos internal conflicts in these countries are based on religion. Cyprus, Germany, Italy, Spain UK and USA also have differences and voting-trends based on religious lines. (No Catholic could be elected President of USA for nearly 200 years until J.F.Kennedy became President in 1960).

Karens in Myanmar are also subdivided by religion. Christian Karens are more numerous and different from Buddhist Karens and Muslim Karens. They differ not only in religion and customs but their political alienation or alignment is totally different. Ruling Myanmar Governments always look the Christian Karens with a suspect, because the Christians are more close and loyal to ex-colonial masters. Just after the independence of Myanmar, mostly Christian Karens rebelled against the central government. And the Myanmar army lost most of the country. Christian Karens even arrested a group of top ranked military officers including the Deputy Commander-in- Chief of the Myanmar army. Buddhist Karens betrayed and rescued them back. They were honoured with the highest awards in Myanmar Military’s history. Presently also, we could see the same kind of alignment. Buddhist Karens deserted the fellow Christian Karen rebels. Buddhist Karens joined their hands with Myanmar Army and raided the Christian-Karens across the Myanmar-Thai border. Apart from them, there are also Muslim Karens in Myanmar. Some of them even formed the Kawthoole Muslim Liberation Force (KMLF) and formed alliance with the Christian Karen rebels.

Buddhist-Rakhines are also different from Muslim Rakhines or Rohingyas. Some of them are even active as a rebel group called, the Rohingya Patriotic Front. Panthays or Chinese Myanmar Muslims are also totally different from other Chinese or other Myanmar Chinese. Buddhist Shan and Muslim Shans are also quite different. So it is obvious that the new Ethnic Minority Groups will appear depending upon their religion.

The religions will become the main and very strong bonds in the formation of the various Ethnic Minority Groups in Burma / Myanmar . And the religion is the main obstacle obstructing the complete assimilation of the minority groups. In other words, religion sometimes prevents the disappearing of the Ethnic-minority groups. Daw Aung San Su Kyi in her book “The Voice of Hope” told Alan Clements about the politics and religion: A journalist said to me, “When you speak to the people you talk a lot about religion, why is that?” I said, “Because politics is about people, and you can't separate people from their spiritual values.” And he said that he had asked a young student who had come to the weekend talks about this: “Why are they are talking about religion?” The student replied, “Well that's politics. ”Our people understand what we are talking about. Some people might think it is either idealistic or naive to talk about ‘metta’ in terms of politics, but to me it makes a lot of practical good sense. AC: It's a matter of debate, but politics and religion are usually segregated issues. In Burma today, the large portion of monks and nuns see spiritual freedom and sociopolitical freedom as separate areas. But in truth, dhamma (Religion) and politics are rooted in the same issue - freedom. D A S S K: Indeed, but this is not unique to Burma. Everywhere you'll find this drive to separate the secular from the spiritual. In other Buddhist countries you'll find the same thing - in Thailand, Sri Lanka, in Mahayana Buddhist countries, in Christian countries, almost everywhere in the world. I think some people find it embarrassing and impractical to think of the spiritual and political life as one. I do not see them as separate. In democracies there is always a drive to separate the spiritual from the secular, but it is not actually required to separate them. Whereas in many dictatorships, you'll find that there is an official policy to keep politics and religion apart, in case I suppose, it is used to upset the status quo.

HISTORY AND GEOGRAPHY alone could not be the basic factors determining the legality of the official recognition of the Ethic Minority Groups of a country. Especially history is a very poor guide. There was almost always someone else there first. Israelis and Palestines almost always fight for their ‘native’ homeland. Actually neither of them were there first to occupy that land. Just have a look at the history of Myanmar. Assam and Manipure of India; Phi Mor, Gor Lan and Kan Fan of China (the names stated here are Myanmar names); Ayuthya of Thailand; Penang of Malaysia, were once under Myanmar’s influence, even if it was for a brief period of time. And alternately, Arakan King Narameikhla founded the Mrohaung or Mrauk-Oo with the military help of Nadir Shah, the Muslim Sultan of Bengal. So his heirs, the successive Arakan kings were subject to Bengal from 1430 to 1531 AD.

The Buddhists of Arakan the other major ethnic community, known as Magh or Rakhine are a mix-blooded race descended from Aryans of Maghada, India, Mongolians and Tibeto-Burmans.

Hindus, Portuguese, Chinese, British and Japanese partly or completely colonise Myanmar in history for various lengths of periods.

And in ancient times, Polynesians of Pacific Islands first occupied the ancient Burma and were pushed down by ancient Indonesians and Malays. Actually all those Polynesians, Indonesians, Malays and most of the present Myanmar and Ethnic Minorities descended or migrated from China through Yunan.

Hindu colonists, of Andhra Dynasty, from middle India (180 BC) established Hanthawaddy (actually Mon town Han Sawadi – similar to Thailand citizen Mons) and Syriam (Tanyin or Than Lyin) in Burma.

Even before them, Orissa, Indian Buddhist colonists, arrived there earlier, settled and built pagodas since 500 BC.

There was a well-known belief and people even used to say that Myanmar started from Tagaung, built by Abi Raja, a Sakian (Tha Ki Win min), Indian Royal family member, migrated from Kapilavatthu (India) after defeated by the king of Panchala (India), Vitatupa. He left the Middle Country (India) and established the Tagaung country, known at that time as Sangassarattha or Sangassanagara. On the death of Abi Raja, younger son Kan Raja Nge (younger King Kan) got the throne. Thirty-three kings reigned there. Elder brother Kan Raja Gyi (elder King Kan) went down the Ayeyarwaddy River, ascended the Thallawadi River, arrived Kelataungnyo and ruled there as Rajagaha. He ruled the ancient Arakan. His son Muducitta became king of the Pyus (ancestors of modern Myanmar). He founded the city of Kyauppadaung. He conquered the Dhannavati (built by king Marayu).

So what is the great deal, dear Buddhist Burmese brothers?

The pure Indian or Kala brothers, Kan Rajas (Kan Yaza Gyi and Nge) were your ancestors. One started Myanmar kingdom and another the Rakhine Kingdom. Both of them were very fresh, recent and new immigrants. And your Myanmar (Burmese) and Rakhine Royal families descended from them.

Are all of you are not ashamed to call the Muslims Kalas and labelled as migrants, hybrids, non citizens, when all of you are actually totally same as us. And all of us know that all the major religions never started in Burma. All of the religions are foreign to all of us.

The Mainland Burmese are now able to colonize the Arakan State because, the British presented them, free of charge, as an extra gift during the granting of Independence to Burma. Actually the Burmese could colonize the Arakan State with their own strength for thirty-two years only from 1783 to 1815 AD.

The Arakans (Buddhists and Muslims) agreed to join the Burmese Union because they had trusted all the promises given by General Aung San, during the Pang Long Treaty. If not, the British would not allow including the Arakan and other States to join the mainland Burma. But General Ne Win and successive Burmese Generals betrayed the ethnic minorities and ignored the promises given by General Aung San. Although the minorities including Arakans had given up their rights to separate from the Union, the Burmese Chauvinist Military Generals still refused to recognize their other rights e.g. religious, cultural, political and civil rights etc. Muslims of the Arakan i.e. Rohingyas are suffering most. It is a little bit funny that in spite of long established history of Muslim Rohingyas, the Burmese colonist Generals, who could manage to colonized Arakan for a mere thirty-two years only, claims that they are the rightful owner of Arakan and the Rohingyas are alien migrants.

If we continue back to the glorious Burmese history:

The invading Chinese from the north destroyed Tagaung. The last king of Tagaung, Bhinnaka Raja run away and died later. His followers split in to three divisions. One division founded the nineteen Shan States at the eastern part. Another division moved down Ayeyarwady River and combined with Muducitta (second generation migrant, grand son of Indian Abi Raja) and other Sakiyan (Indian) princes, among the Pyus, Kanyans and Theks.

The third group stayed in Mali with the chief queen Naga Hsein, a Sakiyan.(Indian) She was the queen of the Sakyiyan king Dhaja Raja migrated from India. On the way he founded Thintwe’. Then they founded the upper Bagan(Pagan).

Dahnnavata captured Thambula, queen of Pyus. But Nanhkan (China) queen of Pyus had driven out the Kanyans, who lived in seven hill-tracks beginning Thantwe’.

King Dwattabaung, direct descendent of Abi Raja (Indian Migrant) founded Thare Khit Taya in 443 BC. It was said to be self-destroyed in 94 AD. The history is half -mystical at that time.

Mons or Talaings, an Ethnic Minority Group of Myanmar, migrated from the Talingana State, Madras coast of Southern India. They mixed with the new migrants of Mongol from China and driven out the above Andhra and Orissa colonists. Those Mon (Talaings) brought with them the culture, arts, literature, religion and all the skills of civilisation of present Myanmar. They founded the Thaton and Bago (Pegu) Kingdoms. That Mon mighty Kingdom extended from Lower Burma (Pathein or Bassein, Mawlamyine or Moulmein, Tanintharyi or Tenasserim, Tanyin or Syriam), Thailand and Cambodia. King Anawrahta of Bagan (Pagan) conquered that Mon Kingdom of King Manuha, named Suvannabumi (The Land of Golden Hues).

Two princes named Thamala and Wimala (Myanmar version of Indian names-Thalma and Vimala.) established the town Bago in 573AD. Tabinshwehti (Taungoo Dynasty) conquered it in 1539 AD. The Arabs and European travellers of the ninth century saw many Myanmar-Muslim sailors and traders, in Pegu (Bago), also known as Ussa.

Now there are only a few real Mons (much less than few hundred thousands) in Myanmar. But they were rewarded with the separate Mon State by the General Ne Win’s government because of his strong second man, General Tin Oo (actually he was even well known as ‘one and a half ’ i.e. higher than number two position, as he controlled the Military Intelligence). He was a Mon. Later he was accused of corruption and removed from the number two post. This was allegedly after the Thailand’s official twenty-one gun salute and red carpet reception for his (General Tin Oo) son and daughter-in-law’s honeymoon trip there. Please allow me to interrupt with another interesting short story, which is not directly related with the main issue but because of a lot of coincidences. Another General Tin Oo (now NLD opposition leader) was the Chief Commander or Middle Division Military Command. He was very popular among the grass root people, Military rank and file and among the ruling elite. He had just rooted out the prolonged strong hold of Burma Communist Party’s head-quarters on the Bago Yoma (Pegu Mountain Ranges). When we met, I was surprised because he recognised me although I was almost an ordinary person and we had only met briefly once before that. He greeted me and suddenly joked with me. He told me the story of Kyansittha, during the war with the Mon (Talaings) went to pray the famous Shwe Maw Daw pagoda in Bago. When he came down the ‘Talaings’ had surrounded the pagoda, but Kyansittha manage to come down without any harm. He asked me the reason and answer to this ‘miracle’. The answer is very easy, just a Homophone only. Ta, means one in Burmese. Ta-Line means one line on the shoulder i.e. a rank and file in his own army. So, Kyansittha was not surrounded by the enemy Mons (Talaings) but was just surrounded by his own military men, ‘Ta-Lines’. That General Tin Oo was later promoted to the Chief Commander of Burma Armed Forces and became ‘the number two man’ in Burma. But that position was dangerous under the dictator Ne Win. Once the second man became popular and if there were signs of a threat, he used to removed and replaced with a weaker person so that his number one position would be safe. General Tin Oo was accused of corruption. He had alleged to accept five bottles of liquor, accepted the government controlled foreign currency to buy medicine for his child suffering from leukaemia. The Burmese Military Attaché in London allegedly gave that medicine to him. Another reason for his removal was, his wife, a Medical Doctor was proud and rude among the military families!

Portuguese, Philip Debrito (Nga Zin Ga) established a colony in Syriam from 1581 to 1613.

Chinese Kublai Khan’s Muslim Turkish soldiers, commanded by Nasrudin, the son of Yunan Governor attacked and took over Burma in 1277 AD. Tartars at first took strong hold in Bhamo (Burma) for a few years and later destroyed Bagan (Pagan) in 1287 AD.

Shans of Myanmar and Siams, now known as Thais are from one same Ethnic Group. Their language is different in slang only. They are descended from Sino-Shan and Mon Khamars, who came down from Yunan, China.

U Nu, the last democratically elected Prime Minister of Burma, overthrown by the General Ne Wins’ Military coup, later formed the government-in-exile in Thailand. After he returned (surrendered) to Burma, there were praises in the Government controlled Media, regarding his patriotism in refusal to sign an alleged agreement to allow Shan State to be annexed with Thailand in exchange for the Military and financial aids.

Myanmar language.

Myanmar Muslims are using Myanmar language as their mother tongue. They are well assimilated in this aspect. A lot of Ethnic Minority Groups through out the world are facing problems because of the language differences. Myanmar spoken language is under Tibeto-Burman family. The source of the Myanmar script (written language) was adopted from the Brahmi script from India (500 BC. to 300 AD.), in the reign of King Asoka. This Brahmi Indian scrip spread to Tibet, Sri Lanka, Myanmar, Thailand, Cambodia and even some parts of Indonesia. In Myanmar, this Brami script was developed and modified by the civilisations of Pyu (now disappeared and totally assimilated in Myanmar), Mon, Rakhine, and Myanmar. Myanmar language script was fine tune again after introducing Sanskrit, Pali, Pyu and Mon scripts. Earliest Myanmar written language starts in Bagan (Pagan) period of eleven century. When compare to many of the prided, recognised ethnic minorities, who could not speak Myanmar language, most of the Muslims in Myanmar could speak the mother tongue. Myanmar traditional dress. Myanmar-Muslims have adopted and taken the Myanmar dress as their own. It is widely accepted that Taik pone (Myanmar man’s jacket) was taken from China and the Longyi (Sarong) was taken from India. Curiously Muslim religious customary Purdah, a veil for the women, is spread to even Burmese-Buddhists and other Ethnic Minorities. They called that with the adopted name Pawah.

So the present Ethnic Groups all over the world, including the races of Myanmar (Burma) are not the original owners of the land. And are not neatly arranged into Nations. There is a lot of spill over into neighbouring states.

And their religion, language, culture and traditional dresses are usually found to be shared or modified from others.

The author of this book wish to make clear that the above paragraph does not mean to insult or belittle the spirit and pride of Nationality and the state of been a member of a particular Ethnic Group. I wished to reduce the fanatic extremist, Nationalistic Spirits only. After all, we all are just fellow, brothers and sisters staying temporary on earth. Why should we fight the deadly wars and hate each other for the non- permanent properties and lands. Peace, kindness, loving kindness, forgiveness, charity, helping the needy and various good virtues are the teachings of all our Religions.

So, based on the above, undeniable, concrete facts and truths – no one should deny the rights of Muslims in Burma (Myanmar). Myanmar Muslims have a right to be recognized as one of the races in Myanmar (Burma). We are one of the legal Ethnic Minority Groups of Myanmar (Burma). Myanmar Muslims (Burmese Muslims) are no more foreigners nor migrants but full-blown citizens of Myanmar (Burma). Muslims in Myanmar (Burma) have the same and equal rights with all other Myanmar citizens, including Burmese Buddhists and all the ethnic minorities of Burma (Myanmar).

I hereby wish to refer an article written by me in the Burma Digest. (you can confirm with the Burma Digest Chief Editor and Publisher, Dr Tayza that I am the author and copy right owner and is allowed by Burma Digest to republish anywhere including Wikipedia) [1]
Open Letter to the Editor: We are all Burmese in our heart

Dear Editor,

I hope that you and some of the Burmese Digest readers could recalled my name in association with my best friend Ko Tin New (Bo Aung Din). He had mentioned a few times about me in his a dozen Compassionate letters to Nan. As he had mentioned, my grandfather was a Burmese Muslim and married to a pure Burmese girl, Ko Tin Nwe’s grand Aunt that is the sister of Ko Tin Nwe’s grandfather. As he had mentioned, she was disowned by her father because she married a so called a ‘Kala’.

Actually the ‘Kala’ she married was the Burmese Muslim, the son of the royal body guard of Nyaung Yan Prince. Yes! I am not bluffing. His family was famous for the loyalty and braveness and was descendents of Afghanistan warriors at first came to Burma as mercenaries. And they were already regarded as loyal subjects of the Burmese kings or in other words Burmese Citizens. They are completely burmanized except for their religion. They loved to be called Burmese Muslims and successive Burmese Kings had already recognized them as Burmese Muslims and as their loyal subjects/citizens and even given them the relevant lands designated with their jobs.

In old royal capital Mandalay, we could still see the two ‘A Myauk Tans’ meaning Cannon or large artillery men’s quarters. ‘Myin Win’ horse-men’s quarters, ‘Sin Kywone’ meaning Elephant keepers, ‘Ko Yan Daw Win’ meaning Royal Body Guards’ quarters etc still fully occupied by their descendents Burmese Muslims with respectively named Mosques. As Ko Tin Nwe wrote, Oh Bo Mosque was donated by King Mindon, all the teak pillars were meant for the Royal Palace but those that could not go into their respected holes in time according to the astrologers were discarded and donated to build the Mosque. Chinese Muslim Mosque’s land was also donated by King Mindon and he also donated the hostel in Mecca for his Burmese Muslim subjects.

Mandalay was founded on Monday, the 23rd May 1859. But King Mindôn passed away on the 1st of October 1878 at the age of sixty-four. King Thibaw (1878-1885) took the throne illegally or by a palace coup. It was near the end of King Mindôn's illness, which lasted about two months that, the Alaè-nandaw Queen plotted the maneuverings to make Thibaw Prince to get the throne. She was the daughter of King Bagyidaw (1819-1837), by his Chief Queen. She became very powerful after the death of the Chief Queen Nanmadawpaya in November 1876. The rightful Heir-Apparent, the Kanaung Prince was murdered in the rebellion of 1866.

King Mindôn was undecided and hesitated to choose a new successor but put three of the best trusted and elderly Princes as Regents viz: Mekkhara, the Thônzè and the Nyaung Yan Princes.

Alè-nandaw Queen tried successfully to block them from becoming Eing shae min or Crown Prince. She plotted with palace officials to place Prince Thibaw on the throne, her second daughter Supayalat’s lover.

She practically isolated King Mindôn and give orders, as if it were by the King's orders. The

Princes were summoned to the Palace and arrested. The princes Nyaung Ok and the Nyaung Yan managed to escape. They run into the French ‘Embassy’, now No 10th. State High School or formerly known as Than Dae’ School. His bodyguards including my great grandfather escaped into lower Burma and some of them settled in Taungoo.

King Mindon learned about the plot and ordered the Princes to be released. Kin Wun Mingyi and the Supreme Court (Hlut-daw) were persuaded to believe that King Mindôn's wished to appoint Prince Thibaw as an Eing shae min and to marry Supayalat. Other Princes were re-arrested. When King Mindôn passed away, just after the funeral, young inexperience and naive Prince Thibaw was proclaimed King. He was the son of the almost unknown or least powerful Laungshe Queen. The Salin Princess, eldest daughter of Mindôn Min, who was the Princess reserved according to an old custom, to be the Queen of the next King, became a nun. Thibaw married the two sisters Supayagyi and Supayalat. The elder, Supayagyi, should be the chief queen, but Supayalat forced her to live a life of retirement in the Palace.

On February 1879, the interned Princes, together with some Princesses, a Queen and some notables, altogether over 70 persons, were murdered. Another greater massacre took place in 1884. About 300 remaining members of the Royal Family, who had escaped in 1879, were cruelly butchered.

So my great grand father luckily escaped the massacres. His daughter-in-law, pure Burmese lady who converted to Islam and was disowned by her family for the crime of marrying a ‘Kala’ was widowed soon and was very poor but she managed to give all of her children good education. Eldest son became a famous Head Master and he is my father. And she was very proud to see, before she departed, that more than two dozens of her grandchildren got the university degrees including many doctors and engineers. The rest is history.

But now only Myanmar Military rulers are labeling us as guest citizens, ‘Kala’ or mixed blooded persons or not pure citizens. That, however, could not make us, or people like us, to become non Burmese Citizens. We are Burmese citizens no matter how some might disagree, or wish otherwise or decreed by force. Whether mixed blooded or not is not important in the eyes of the whole world but SPDC could not deny our right of 100% pure Burmese citizenship!

We, and all the other persons like us, not just those Indians, Chinese, Bengalis or Pakistanis although we are undeniably mixed blooded immigrants’ children or descendants of immigrants, but we are now full Burmese Citizens. No matter what some like SPDC racists or their cohorts might say contrary.

Our great grand parents and all the ancestors were loyal citizens of Burma and all of them were and are holding the Burmese National Registration Cards or ‘Ah Myo Thar Mhat Pone Tin Cards’. My brothers and sisters’ family members are holding those Burmese National Registration Cards but now the SPDC Apartheid Régime had ordered to issue the differently formatted cards for their younger children. It is curious when the parents and elder brothers and sisters are the same citizens as our Burmese Buddhists at least on paper but now only their youngest children are blatantly or brazenly discriminated as different from others and their own elder siblings.

This racial discrimination is practiced on not only Muslims but on Chinese and Hindis. SPDC National Registration officers decreed that if any one is not pure Burmese Buddhist, could not claim to be pure blood and all the Burmese Muslims must be recorded as mixed blooded persons. Whether correct or not, know or not, must be enlisted as mixed blooded Indian, Pakistan or Bengali. So it is blatant Racial Discrimination or openly practicing Apartheid practice of SPDC Junta.

My nephews and nieces are forced to begin their journey of life differently from their elder siblings and face the reality of the unfair world. We believe that no one has that right to practice the issuing of Apartheid certificate or new type of Registration different from other citizens to us. By doing so, SPDC is clearly starting to commit a Genocide offence.

Our children are entitled to their dreams and should not encounter any disappointments even before they started their tender lives. We wonder how that single document would change their dreams or what would be their vision of their world or Myanmar excluding them or shutting out all of them from all the opportunities. It is our children’s turning points of their lives. SPDC ruthlessly had shown them who they are, why and how they are not welcomed in Burma/Myanmar. Most importantly, SPDC have shown our children a real rejection. In waking to this realization, we suddenly understand that SPDC have already failed all our children’s future. As our children journey into an uncertain future, they will struggle and grapple with their sense of their rightful place in this Myanmar nation.

The constant emphasis on differences by the narrow minded SPDC apartheid racists who could not see value in these children prevent them from being seen, seeing themselves, as anything other than Burmese Citizens. And so SPDC Junta’s dancing with shadows continues, to their pied-piper song of unity and integration in single race and religion, to the beat of their war drums, changing Burma into a Myanmar world of so much bigotry and hatred. Our young children’s every early moments would be yet under another hammer blow, tempering or compromising their fantastic visions into listless and endless compromise under SPDC and cohorts.

Our country’s diversity makes us who we are and what we are today, that cannot be emphasized enough. And though we Burmese Muslims may each resonate differently, harmonizing only at some points in time and never universally, that is we are completely burmanized culturally but differ in religion only but I am sure when we dream we dream as Burmese only because we know Burmese, we love Burmese, and Burmese only is in our heart and mind.

Successive Burmese Kings had accepted us as their loyal subjects or citizens, after Independence U Nu’s government had accepted us. And General Aung San had even promised us: “I want to address the Indians and Chinese residing in this country. We have no bitterness, no ill will for them, or for that matter for any race and nationality in the world. If they choose to join us, we will welcome them as our own brethren. The welfare of all people of this country irrespective of race or religion has always been the one purpose that I have set out to fulfill. In fact it is my life's mission.”

But sadly those illegitimate illegal SPDC Régime is practicing Apartheid committing the Genocide on all of us.

I could guarantee to all of our Burmese friends that we are all Burmese in our heart and we have no intention or imagination to even support the foreign countries believed to be the homeland of our ancient ancestors even if Burma is at war with them!

Please give back our children at least a chance to dream. Please do not shut off their future.

Ko Tin Maung

You could read the above article in Burmese/Myanmar. (I got the copy right to reprint here.) [2][3]

merge discussion

agree, merge here. Chris 04:20, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I as the original contributer agreed the merger with the condition not to vandalize the words Burmese Muslims and Burmese Indian Muslims only. (I am not asking to put as a seperate legal ethnic minority status but just mention as a seperate group under Islam in Myanmar. This is a fare a square request. I hereby let the automatic signature appear.darz_kkg
agree, merge regardless of author's reassurance, having read through the discussion thread and the article, it appears that the author is using the articles to aggressively pushing POV (in this case - legitimising Myanmar Muslims as ethnic group). This is against Wikipedia policy. Merge the articles, remove excessive POV materials and keep wikipedia clean. Okkar 22:48, 17 April 2007 (UTC) merge ErikTheBikeMan (talk) 16:20, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Ko Hintha and all the Wiki Myanmar Project editors for the kind help.

So, the religion could not become a basic factor to form a new race according to your theory. What about Kosovo Muslims and Bosnian Muslims? US action to help them was obstructed by big bully, veto wielding communists same as the present scenario in Myanmar-resolution in UNSC. Therefore, US had to go ‘alone’ with NATO and willing partners. Now UN had recognized by participating in the process.

We need to think out of the box. It is funny that Ko Hintha said, Indian, Chinese, Bama and Malay could not mixed together when I am one human being with those mixed genes. Actually, my fathers’ parents are; Ko Tin Mg, who is the Burmese-Indian mixed blood married to the Shan-Panthay, Ma Thorda. (Please read in my letter posted earlier) My father married to a Pashu (Malay) woman. Therefore, I am the product of the mixed marriage, mixed blooded person. Sometimes I feel like the grass between the bricks.

Nevertheless, because of my nature to see every thing as the blessing in disguise from God and try to extract the best out of all my mixed genes, I am happy with the results. Now I even have to thank you, Myanmar Wiki editors. I have to accept that there is no Myanmar Muslim nor Myanmar Indian Race.

Thank you for lumping us with Burmese Indians and Islam in Myanmar.
Ko Hintha, do you know that a person practicing Islam is called a Muslim?
It is the universal concept, accepted by the whole world.
Bingo! Check-mate!
Those practicing Islam in Myanmar are called Myanmar Muslims.
Never mind even if you cannot accept this logic.
Call us in any name.

"What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other word would smell as sweet."
Wiliam Shakespeare --From Romeo and Juliet (II, ii, 1-2)

Therefore, you could call us Ayer gyi or Kala Gyi, Tayoke gyi or Pauk phaw. Up to you. But look at your self in the mirror. How much pure blood you all have?

Therefore, in preparation of the merger exercise lumping us as Indians, I prepared the Burmese Indian site for the soft landing. I never intend to insult our Burmese friends’ pride but the facts I found out are truths! So please help edit and improve the product or brainchild of my poor English. Spelling, grammar, style etc but please do not try to alter the truth of our prolong sufferings. Just read the definition of Genocide. The Journalists, (including editors) could be punished because of their propaganda warfare to support the crimes of Humanity (Genocide) committed by their governments.

THE EIGHT STAGES OF GENOCIDE, By Dr. Gregory H. Stanton, President, Genocide Watch [4]

Thank you again for indirectly promoting the spirit of brotherhood-in-Islam. Now there is no more Burmese Indian Muslims but we are associated with the greater brothers INDIANS and Burmese Indians. After all, not only India had a glorious history, present India is advanced in IT, Nuclear and Space Technology.

And we are no more a mere minority Burmese Muslims, but part of the Islamic World. So if anyone tries to do Genocide on us we now have all the rights to ask help from our brothers-in-Islam around the world. Please read the definition of Genocide, even calling names like Ne Win and cohorts had done, the anti-Muslim activities done by successive Myanmar Military rulers and the journalists who help could be tried at the International Tribunal.

God sees the truth but waits. (From the Great Russian author Leo Tolstoy)

I used to tell my Chin and Rohingya friends;
Only because of the oppressions back home, you all had tried to migrate. If not, most of the Chins would be still on the hills planting and Rohingyas would be still fishing and farming. Even if there is a true democracy, Burma could not effort to develop their native places quickly. Now instead of development going to their places they are placed in developed countries. This is a blessing in disguise! --darzkkg 05:38, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Dear friends, TQ for the kind comments but in “Racial Profiling” your personal acceptance or general Burmese opinion could not count or hold water in the CIVILIZED WORLD OUTSIDE MYANMAR.

It is a crime! Although you all are too used to it, Muslims including me, who are at the receiving end, take seriously as an offence. We are not wrong, according to UN accepted Genocide guide lines. In the land like Myanmar, where it is even a taboo to mention even our Independence father Bogyoke Aung San, those salute him or made a khamoke (hat), symbol of his daughter’s party, were jailed but every body is free to profile others!

In football there is a popular accepted axiom, “the best defense is attack.” So I have to aggressively defend our race and religion.

Calling Kala never stopped there. It is used with animosity and always followed by discriminations. I my self was at the receiving end for the most of my life in Burma. I was the top student in my town and district during the high school days. In MC, I still stayed at the first position in each and every exam in every subject every year. However, during the “D” interviews the examiners always showed their animosity towards the Kalas, sometimes even blatantly disclosing openly. Later in the service, I was denied postgraduate studies abroad and promotion.

Therefore, I emigrated for good. Those idiot authorities never understand the effects of the brain drain but I am happy with my present status and I understand that those unfortunate things are actually God’s blessings in disguise only. I started doing research on our Muslim history for fifteen years. Therefore I have a lot of facts and although I tried my best to put in the relevant facts only in your so called ENCYCLOPEDIA.

This is not a fairy tale Mr Wagaung. Even 1001 Arabian nights is quite long. If you can prove that Arakan is not related to Burma and Bangladesh is out of India sub continent, my facts written there were irrelevant. After all, you all want to lump the Burmese Indian Muslims in this Burmese Indians, Muslim related facts are appropriate here.

However, after putting or feeding all the facts, I will stay away from further comments or trying to put back the facts, you erased. You all are free to edit, as you like. My world is much larger than to waste in this small fighting.

Ko Hintha, sorry that you misunderstood my threats (actual warnings only) as directing to you. Don’t take as an insult, what you do to my article or what happens to you is not important for me at all. I am warning the relevant authorities above only. We are trying to persuade the world Muslim countries to support the US action in UNSC. See, we had successfully persuaded Qatar and Indonesia through our affliated 77 International Muslim NGOs!

Please feel free to edit my articles into short and precise up to the Wiki standard. For me 15 years of my collection made me bias. ( Becoming Nga_thine_mya_taut Hin_hone.)

But please understand me, I could prove that I had tried to be concise by looking at the following fact_

I wrote one very short section only, Arakan Kings minted coins with Muslim names and declaration of Islamic faith. The facts behind are just the gist from the following_

“ARAKAN’S PLACE IN THE CIVILIZATION OF THE BAY”

A STUDY OF COINAGE AND FOREIGN RELATIONS
M.S. COLLIS, in collaboration with San Shwe Bu.

The Article below appeared in BURMA RESEARCH SOCIETY 50TH ANNIVERSARY PUBLICATION'S, NO-2, RANGOON 1960, FROM PAGE-1485-504.

Coins found in Arakan. Mr. Htoon Aung Gyaw, Barrister-at-law and certain other private collectors of Akyab have coins found in Arakan. Sixteen of them were confirmed to belong to the Maruk-U dynasty (1430 to 1784 AD) were distinct specimens, bearing the dates and titles of fifteen different kings of that time. Moreover there were a few coins belonging to the Wesali dynasty (788 to 951 AD). I propose in this paper to show the relationship of these coins to Indian coinage as a whole and to use them as a document from which to draw certain general conclusions on the history of Arakan. As that history has never been written and as the data for the early centuries are scanty and controversial, I trust that the inevitable shortcomings of this summary will be understood and excused. Types of Indian coinage. Speaking generally the coins of India fall into two distinct types, the Hindu and the Mohamedan. Specimens of Hindu coinage of as far back as 600 BC are in the British Museum, but it was not until India came into Hindu contact with Mediterranean civilization in 327 BC. that its coinage developed and became an art. This connection, beginning with the invasion of Alexander and continuing through the Satraps into Roman times resulted first in the striking of coins almost pure Greek in design and gradually in the adaptation of that design to Hindu ends. With the Guptas (320 to 455 AD) a coinage had been evolved which while owing much to the Greek theory of form, was pure Hindu in feeling. Now all this Hindu coinage, from its highest as a work of art to its lowest as a barbarous confusion, has certain definite characteristics. It exhibits portraits of kings, figures and animals, deities and symbols of deities. Inscriptions take a very subordinate place; dates are infrequent; as it is not always possible to identify a coin with a particular king, a classification by dynasties and localities is the most that can often be attempted. Mohamedan Types of Indian coinage: Mahomedan coinage, which came into India in 1203 AD has opposite characteristics. It is of an inscriptional nature. Save for a few exceptions, it contains not a portrait or a figure. The King's name, title, date and faith are carefully recorded. The coin's artistic merit depends upon the calligraphy; and as everyone is aware who has studied the Persian script as at mural decoration this can give a remarkably balanced and vital impression of art. Coins of Arakan. The coins found in Arakan belong to both the groups described above;those of Wesali are Hindu and those of Mrauk-U are Mahomedan.

Wesaii, Archacological evidence. The ruins of the city are stilI to be seen on the bank of a tidal creek, about six miles from Mrauk -U (now known as Myo Haung) and about fifty miles inland from the Bay of Bengal. The site has neither been surveyed nor excavated, but the casual observer may perceive the remains of brick walls enclosing a large area. On the south side was to be seen until lately portions of a stone pier. Within the walls are numerous mounds and lying on them are pieces of stone statuary, bas-reliefs, capitals, floral designs in stone and inscriptions in the Nagari character of the 8th century. All these remains are purely Hindu in execution and subject. The figures represent deities; on the capitals is the sacred bull of Siva; the style is rougher than the best Hindu work, but is not debased. Close by the walls is a large stone monolith of Buddha belonging to the same date. This is the image now known as the Paragri, praying at which Fra Manrique found King Thiri-thu-dhamma eight centuries later. Various Nagari inscriptions, still un deciphered, have been found in the vicinity of the city; and at Mahamuni, 15 miles N. E., are to be seen surrounding the mound on which once sat the great image of the Buddha, which is now in Mandalay, a number of statues and bas-reliefs of the Hindu Pantheon. Incomplete and insufficiently worked out as is this archaeological evidence, it suggests that in the city of Wesali were practised both the Hindu and Buddhist religions or that it was a Mahayanist city.

Wesaii MSS. evidence.

Mr. San Shwe Bu has placed in my hands his translation of a curious Arakanese MS. called. "The true chronicle of the Great Image." Its caligraphy is order than that of the rest of the MSS. in my possession. - Sam Shwe Bu. The age of this MS. like that of most Arakanese MSS. is unknown, but it purports to give some account of the

Wesali dynasty.  Its contents in this respect may be summarized as follows: -

The area now known as north Arakan had been for many years before the 8th century the seat of Hindu dynasties. In 788 AD. a new dynasty known as the Chandra, founded the city of Wesali. This city became a noted trade port to which as many as a thousand ships came annually. The Chandra kings were upholders of Buddhism, guarding and glorifying the Mahamunni shrine; their territory extended as far north as Chittagong. The dynasty came to an end in 957 AD. being overwhelmed by a Mongolian invasion. The conclusion to be drawn from this MS. is that Wesali was an easterly Hindu kingdom of Bengal, following the Mahayanist form of Buddhism and that both government and people were Indian as the Mongolian influx had not yet occurred.

Hinayanism had already fled the India and that Mahayana Buddhism was really a compromise in which the Hindu gods and Buddha ranked equally.

Wesaii a Mahayanist State. These are some of the data for forming an opinion as to the religious condition of Bengal from 400-1000 AD. As Wesali was a Hindu State adjacent there to, the presumption is that its religious history was similar. Hinayanism had vanished; Mahayanism had compromised with original Hinduism to such a point that Buddha had become one of many gods; even the sexual magic of Tantricism was no anomaly. Such, it appears, was the Chandra kingdom of Wesaii, Mahayanist in the sense that word carried in the Bengal of the 8th century. It is significant that at least one Tantric sculpture has been found in Wesaii.

Wesali, as will be explained later, must be regarded not as an early Burmese but as a late Hindu State. With the whole tradition of the great Hindu past it had inherited coinage. All these data indicate that the coins of Wesali were in the pure Brahmanical tradition. But coins bearing Brahmanical symbols are not inconsistent with a Mahayanist dynasty. I am not aware of any Indian coin of a period later than the 1 st century AD., which contains a Buddhist figure, symbol or inscription. The Mahayanist kings of the periods mentioned above struck Brahmanical coins. Nothing is therefore more to be expected than that the Wesali coins should also be Brahminical. It is merely another proof of how closely the Mahayanist Buddhism of 8th century Bengal approximated to Hinduism.

The end of Wesaii & the beginning of the Arakanese. Such was the kingdom of Wesali, an Indian state in 957 AD, occurred an event which was to change it from an Indian into an Indo-Chinese realm and to endow the region of Arakan with its present characteristics. The "True Chronicle" records that in the year 957 AD., a Mongolian invasion swept over Wesali, destroyed the Chandras and placed on their throne Mongolian kings.

Over the border in Bengal the same deluge carried away the Pala kings. The evidence for this latter irruption is fully cited in a paper by Mr. Banerji and there is no doubt that the Mongolian invasion, which terminated the ruler of the Palas, closed also the epoch of the Chandras. But while in Bengal the Hindus regained their supremacy in a few years, it would seem that in Arakan the entry of the Mongolians was decisive. They cut Arakan away from India and mixing in sufficient number with the inhabitants of the east side of the present lndo-Burma divide, created that Indo-Mongoloid stock now known as the Arakanese. This emergence of a new race was not the work of a single invasion. The MSS record subsequent Mongolian incursions. But the date 957 AD., may be said to mark the appearance of the Arakanese, and the beginning of a fresh period.

The period 957-1430 AD, General characteristics.

The cardinal characteristic of the new period is that Arakan (as the area may now be called) looked East instead of West. The Mongolians were savages and following their invasion supervened a period of darkness. But the invaders became educated in the culture of the country they had conquered. The resulting civilization was of a mediaeval character. The capital was moved from Wesali to the Lemro River, some fifteen miles south-east. There during the ensuing centuries numerous dynasties ruled each with its own city but always in the same locality. Few archaeological remains of this period of five centuries exist, though brick foundations may be seen on the Lemro bank. In Bengal the Mohamedans were not to arrive till 1203. Over the mountains in Burma proper was the quaint kingdom of Pagan. It was with Pagan alone the Arakan had any considerable dealings and it was to learn much. Thus during these five centureis the inhabitants of Arakan became more similar to the inhabitants of Burma and less like Indians. Their religion became less Mahayanist and more Hinayanist.

Particular Characteristics of the period 957-1430 A. D.

There existed a road connecting the Lemro with Pagan. That road was known as the Buywet ma-nyo. It has long been overgrown, but the present Government is seeking to resurvey it. It was along that road that the ideas of Burma passed into Arakan. But India was again to play its part in the making of Arakan. To understand the age of Mrauk-U (1430 - 1785 AD.), the profound changes which had taken place in Bengal since the time of the Palas must be called to mind. From all points of view, military, political and cultural, the Moslem Sultanates were in the van of civilization. For every other state they represented modernity, as industrial Europe now represent what is modern for Asia and Africa. Bengal was absorbed into this great polity in l293 AD. But that was its extreme eastern limit.

Why Araken turned towards India in 1450.

The circumstances which made Arakan turn from the East and look West to the Moslem States were political. In 1404 A. D., Min Saw Mwan was King of Arakan, ruling from Launggret, one of the Lemro Cities already mentioned. As the kings of Pagan had regarded Arakan as their feudatory. The Kings of Ava, succeeded them was annoyed by the Arakanese who raided the Yaw and Laungshe. The heir apparent to the throne of Ava invaded Arakan in 1406. Min Saw Mwan fled the country, taking refuge at Gaur, the capital of the Sultan of Bengal. That kingdom had been independent of the Sultanate of Delhi for eighty six years. It was one of the many sovereign states of the world wide Moslem polity.The Arakanese king remained there for twenty four years, leaving his country in the hands of the Burmese. (This part of the history was written in other chapter.) The Arakanese king loomed from the mediaeval to the modern, from the fragile fairyland of the Glass Palace Chronicle to the robust extravaganza of the Thousand Nights and one Night. Nasir-ud-din restored him in 1430 A.D. and Mrauk-U was built. It is noteworthy that one of that Sultan's coins was recently found near the site of that city. It is a unique document in the history of Arakan.

Origin of Arakanese coinage.

Nasir-ud-din's coin is in the tradition and it was on that coin that the coinage of Mrauk-U was subsequently modeled. In this way Arakan became definitely oriented towards the Moslem State. Contact with a modern civilization resulted in a renaissance. The country's great age began.

The Mrauk-U dynasty l450-1786 Period 1. 1430-1530. As feudatory to Bengal.

It was a curious fact that while the government of Further India was Mongolian-Buddhist, that of India and westwards beyond was Mongolian- Mohamedan. That basic distinction centred in the matter of war and agggrandisement. They founded what was known as the Arakanese empire. For the hundred years, 1430 to 1530, Arakan remained feudatory to Bengal, paid tribute and learnt history and politics. Eleven kings followed one another at Mrauk-U in undistinguished succession.

During the whole of Minbin's (Zabauk Shah) reign the administration of Bengal was totally defenseless. Minbin occupied Eastern Bengal and remained to Arakan for the next hundred and twenty years, till 1666. Its administration was left in the hands of twelve local rajahs, who paid an annual tribute to the Arakanese king's Viceroyat Chittagong. In Mr. Htoon Aung Gyaw's collection is one of Minbin's coins. It presents a succinct commentary on the sudden rise of Arakan to importance in the Bay.

On one side of it is inscribed the word "Minbin" in the Burmese character. On the reverse in Nagari is his Moslem title, Zabauk Shah. So Arakan had turned into a Sultanate. The Court was shaped in Gaur and Delhi; there were the eunuchs and the seraglio, the slaves and the executioner. But it remained Hinayana Buddhist. Mahamunni was still there, still fervently worshipped.

The architecture of the Period.

It is Hindu, but of so unique a design. This architecture was the work of Indian builders employed by Minbin and working to his general specifications. It illustrates the cosmopolitan origins of the state of Mrauk-U, which derived from the Hindu and theBuddhist as well as from the Prortuguese and the Moslem. But it also indicates how Minbin was able to fuse diverse elements into a particular and separate style.

If Minbin founded the prosperity of Mrauk-U, Razagri, his sussessor of forty years later, may be said to have consolidated it. In 1576 central and western Bengal was definitely administered by Akbar. Hence the Arakanese in eastern Bengal found themselves on the frontier of the Moghul. There was now no buffer state between. It was known that the Moghul regarded all Bengal as rightly his and that it was entered in his records as such. Hence it behaved Mrauk-U to guard that frontier well. But it was not feasible to do so with the regular army. Arrangements were therefore made with Portuguese mariners who had been allowed to found a trade settlement and refitting base near Chittagong. It was agreed between them and the king that they would protect the frontier against the Moghul in return for all the trade openings their position at Chittagong afforded. The king had his brother or near relative as Viceroy. Portuguese, made a dash at the city of Mrauk-U itself but they were defeated. Thus at this time, the government of Mrauk-U was strong enough to keep the Portuguese in order. Maruk-U, having turned the tables on Bengal proceeded to do the same on Burma,

This was the first and only period in its history when Arakan was able not only to repulse the Burmese but even to annex part of their country. Razagiri, in alliance with Ava, took Pegu. On the division of the spoils the strip up to and including Syriam and Moulmein was added to his long coastline. This campaign was rendered possible by his excellent navy and Razagri in appointing the Portuguese de Brito, as Governor of Syriam was repeating the policy of the north west frontier. He depended on those mariners, in conjunction, presumably, with his own seamen,to keep his borders for him.

For a short period during the reign of Razagri, Arakan extended from Dacca and the Sundabans to Moulmein, a coast strip of a thousand miles in length and varying from 150 to 20 miles in depth. This considerable dominion was built up by means of the strong cosmopolitan army and navy organized by Minbin and by inducing the Portuguese outside his army of fight for him in return for trade concessions. It is difficult to conceive of a state with less reliable foundations. But during the short years of its greatness, the century from 1540 to 1640, it was brilliant and imposing. Copying the imperial Court of Delhi, its kings adopted the title of Padshah. The French traveller Fyiard, who was in India at the time, sums up its position in the Bay as second only to that of the Moghul. In my studies from Fra Manrique and the Arakanese MSS. I have tried to paint a picture of Arakan at this moment of its highest destiny. He depended upon his foreign mercenaries. These were ready to unmake him. The sanctity of authority was gone. Moreover the victories of previous reigns had flooded the country with Moghul, Burmese and Portuguese prisoners of war. These were centers of discontent on which any adventurer could count. On such men counted Shuja, Aurangzebe's elder brother, rightful Emperor of Hindustan, when he fled to Arakan after being worsted in the struggle for the imperial crown which followed the death of Shah Jahan. Only a strong national king can control an army of foreign paid soldiers.

After 1600 a change for the worse overcame the Portuguese. They became pirates. They recruited their numbers from the halfbreeds. Yet it was on the good faith of these desperate men that the King of Mrauk-U depended for the defense of his Northwest Frontier. As the 17th century advanced, the Moghuls consolidated their administration. But Bengal remained and irritant. It was the base from which resolute pirates crossed into their domains, raiding even to Moorshedabed. The pirate boats were manned by pure Portuguese, half-breeds and Arakanese. They seized from the riverbanks’ goods and persons. They were latter sold in Arakan, as slaves.

But it was a shortsighted policy for the kings of Arakan to annoy so strong a neighbouring State as the Moghul Empire. However, it is doubtful whether the usurping kings after Thiri-thu-dhamma attempted to control the Portuguese. They had established an independent bandit State on the Bengal border. So intolerable a condition of affairs could not last. Moghul Sultan Aurangzebe sent to Bengal a strong Governor, Shaistah Khan with instructions to stop the piracy.

Shaistah Khan warned the Purtuguese bandits to come over to his side before he attack. They were promised the rewards greater than they had received from the king of Arakan. In 1665 the Moghul operations took place, the huge fleet built by the Nawab, the assisted by the Dutch defeat the rest of the Portuguese fleet. When the Moghuls advanced into Arakan proper, the Arakanese army resisted them in force with success. After the loss of Chittagong the territory of the Kingdom of Mrauk-U was reduced to the present districts of Akyab, Kyaukpyu and Sandoway. Those areas In Lower Burma which had been won by Razagri and resumed in part by Thiri--ru-dhamma had all lapsed back to the Burmese. Arakan was now confined to its natural boundaries and was no larger than it had been two hundred and fifty years previously. There were twenty five kings of Mrauk-U during those hundred and nineteen years. The coins themselves exhibits little variations Their design is neither more not less inserving. It remains in the Mohamedan tradition of 1450 AD.

The fall of Mrauk-U.

The Moghuls had ceased to an expanding power. Burma was mearly as distracted as Arakan; the English were new comers. In 1760 the Alaungpaya dynasty had united Burma, Mrauk-U's fate was certain. In 1782 Thaniada became king of Maruk-U and Ngathande asked Bodawpaya, king of Burma, to invade the realm.After so long a period of looking west, Arakan turned eastward again. Ngathande's idea was that Bodawpaya would place him on the throne as a feudatory monarch.. Bodawpaya, however used Ngathande, invaded the country and reduced it to the position of an administered province, the first time in its long history that it had lost a home government of its own. It is noteworthy that when Bodawpaya decided to annex Arakan, he bowed to the old idea that the Mahamuni was the defence of that kingdom. For so many centures it had been the common belief of Further India that as long as Mahamuni was in Arakan, the country would remain independent, that Bodawpaya thought it safer to tamper with those calculations in Yadaya which were reputed to protect both the image and the realm. He therefore sent masters of that Art before his troops crossed the mountains and the formula were detected. After his victory he removed Mahamuni to Amarapura, where it now sits. This event, long prophesied and long guarded against, crushed the Arakanese more than defeat in the field. Bodawpaya's first act was to strike a medallion in the style of the Mrauk-U coinage.

The Burmese administration of Arakan. ( 1784 to 1825) Bodawpaya's medallion.

Burmese had never used coins and hence he had no model of his own. He copied therefore the Moslem design. The legend reads- "The kingdom of the Master of Amarapura and of Many White Elephants." This is the numismatic document to the fall of Mrauk-U.

It was the last coin struck in Arakan.

The Burmese governor of Mrauk-U found the country in a very lawless state. One Chinbya organized a rebellion. To secure peace and maintain order the Burmese put to death some and deported others to Burma. Two hundred thousand are said to have fled to India.

In her previous connections with outside states Arakan had always been the gainer. As feudatory to Pagan she had received the Little Vehicle and learnt her present alphabet. As feudatory to Bengal she had laid the foundations of her great age. But administered as a governorship by the Burmese of the 18th century, she had nothing to gain for the Burmese had nothing to teach a country which for centuries had been in touch with the world of thought and action through the Moslem Sultanates at a time when Burma herself was isolated and backward. But an extraordinary turn of events had changed the face of India since the fall of Chittagong in 1666. The Moghuls had disappeared and their place had been taken by the English. They became irritated with the Burmese in 1824 because of frontier raids. The Burmese were not aware that the English, the masters of Hindustan represented a more modern polity than their own. The Arakanese, however, were better informed. For just as Min Saw Mwan realised in 1430 that the Sultanate of Bengal was a polity in the van of the world's thought and would be able to drive the Burmese out of Arakan and restore him, so the Arakanese of 1824 perceived that the English were moderns and that the Burmese could not resist them. Accordingly they sided enthusiastically with them and facilitated in every way the English occupation of Arakan in 1825. When the Burmese had fled and Mrauk-U was occupied by the English, the Arakanese expected that the history of 1430 would be repeated and that an Arakanese prince would be placed on the throne.

The significance of the English administration of Arakan. 1825 to 1929. Conclusion.

The rhythm of the history of Arakan is that of a dancer who sways now to the East and now to the West. Rarely has she stood Upright.

AUTHORITIS CONSULTED

1.Mr. Tun Aung Gyaw'sArakanese coins, arranged, translated and annotated by Mr. San Shwe Bu.
2.The True Chronicle of the Great Image. An Arakanese MSS. translated by Mr. San Shwe Bu.
3.Notes from private Arakanese MSS. placed at my disposal by Mr. San Shwe Bu.
4.Lecture by Mr. Htoon Chan, Bar-at-law. Printed in "Arakan News" of May 1916.
5.The coins of India. P. Brown.
6.Coinages of Asia. S. Allan.
7.The Palas of Bengal, Banerji
8.Early History of India. V. Smith.
9.Travels of Fa-Hein. Edited by Giles.
10.Padre Maestro Fray Seb. Manrique (Translated in Bengal Past and Present).
11.Shihabuddin Talish. Persian MS. Translated by Sarkar.
12.The Glass Palace Chronicle. Tin and Luce.
13.History of Bengal, Stewari.
14.Musaimans of Bengal. Fuzli Rubbee.
15.Outline of Burmese History. Harvey.
16.Catalogue of Coins in Phayre Provincial Museum.
17.Reportof Superintendent, Archaeoligical Survey, Burma, fortheyears 1917,1921,1922 and1923.
18.From Akbar to Aurangzebe. Moreland.
History of the Portuguese in Bengal. Campos.
19.Coins of Arakan, of Pegu and of Burma. (In Numisman Orientalia) Sir Arthur Phayre.

The above Article appeared in BURMA RESEARCH SOCIETY, 50TH ANNIVERSARY PUBLICATION'S NO-2, RANGOON 1960, FROM PAGE-1485-504.

TQ all.--05:43, 13 February 2007 (UTC)darzkkg

Nga Yaman Kan Article

Chapter 1, sub heading 4.

Hi, I have thoroughly searched through the cited reference number 22. "Pe Maung Tin and G.H.Luce, The Glass Palace Chronicle of the Kings of Burma", 23. ibid, 24. ibid and found no indication of Nga Yaman Kan (or his father, the Royal Tutor) being Muslims. The name "Nga Yaman Kan" usually means one eyed man in Burmese. So, there are two possibilities. Nga Yaman Kan could be a man with one bad eye or he was, Raman Kahn, a muslim as the Wiki editor darzkkg suggested. Still there is no reference on both assertions as far as I am concerned. I would request original contributor (Mr/Ms) darzkkg produce an accurate reference on Nga Yaman Kan (or his father) being a muslim or it is better without the sub heading. Thank you.

The Book, "The Glass Palace Chronicle of the Kings of Burma" by Pe Maung Tin and G.H.Luce is available online (with Athens login if it is accessed outside of University of Michigan) at American Council of Learned Societies (ACLS) History E-Book Project. - [5]

These are the chapters that I have based my searched on. Note sub chapters 132. Of the mighty men of valour, the Kala brothers; 135a. Of the bringing of the relics of the sacred frontlet and the tooth, and the enshrining of them in Shwezigon pagoda; 136. Of the sending of Kyanzittha, Nga Htweyu, Nga Loulephpe, and Nyaung-u Hpi to Ussa Pegu to help in the war; 137. Of the pahto, gu, and monasteries, dams, channels, reservoirs, and canals, which he wrought and finished wheresoever he went roaming the country with his host of followers; 138. Of king Sawlu and 139. Of king Htihlaingshin Kyanzittha .

PART IV [6]
131. Of the coming of Shin Arahan from the kingdom of Thaton to the kingdom of Pagan
132. Of the mighty men of valour, the Kala brothers
133. Of the journey of king Anawrahta to Thaton and his bringing of the Pitakas
134. Of the journey to the Tarop country in the kingdom of Gandhala, and the asking of the sacred tooth
135. Of Sawmunhla, daughter of the Sawbwa, ruler of the nine provinces of Mau
135a. Of the bringing of the relics of the sacred frontlet and the tooth, and the enshrining of them in Shwezigon pagoda
136. Of the sending of Kyanzittha, Nga Htweyu, Nga Loulephpe, and Nyaung-u Hpi to Ussa Pegu to help in the war
137. Of the pahto, gu, and monasteries, dams, channels, reservoirs, and canals, which he wrought and finished wheresoever he went roaming the country with his host of followers
138. Of king Sawlu
139. Of king Htihlaingshin Kyanzittha
140. Of the rebuilding of Shwezigon pagoda, Anawrahtaminsau's work of merit, by king Htihlaingshin Kyanzittha
141. Of king Alaungsithu

-– Kyaw2003 04:41, 03 April 2007 (UTC)

TQ Mr/Ms Kyaw.

As for my version of Pe Maung Tin and G.H.Luce, The Glass Palace Chronicle of the Kings of Burma hard copy was left back in Burma, I would like to support my facts from the book in my hand, The Muslims of Burma” A study of a minority Group, by Moshe Yegar, 1972, Otto Harrassowitz. Wisbaden.

Mr Moshe Yegar was an Israel Diplomet (2nd. Secretary) in Embassy of Israel in Rangoon in 1960+ This book was his MA degree thesis (Hebrew University, Jerusalem.)

On the page 2 , 4th. paragaph, line 2&3, he wrote_

King sawlu..... he was educated by a Muslim Arab.

On page 3, 1st. line_

.....Yaman Khan as the Governor of the city Ussa (Pegu) (he explained at the footnote that there is no ‘r’ in Burmese language, Yaman Khan must be Raman Khan.

darzkkg 14:20, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi, Darz_kkg,

Thanks for your reply note. I see you have changed/corrected the references. This is a great article but the topic is quite sensitive and controversial. I think it will require really accurate citations in order to avoid potential disputes. Regards,

Kyaw 2003 16:26, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

TQ again for the interest and constructively pointing out the weakness. I will try to search back the references and put in properly.I had searched, collected those facts for more than a decade but failed to record properly in detail the exact references up to the page level. From now onwards I will try to search back my old books and records and update in this Wiki article.

darzkkg 17:05, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Today I got the copy of _ The Glass Palace Chronicle of the Kings of Burma, translated by Pe Maung Tin and G.H.Luce, Burma Research Society, Rangoon University press, Rangoon, Burma, 1960.(Second printing by Willium Paw). First printing at the Oxford University press, London, England by Frederick Hall in 1923. Starting from page 100 last line,to page 103 there is the story of Nga Ramankan. Nga is placed infront of all the nonroyal commoners. So Ramankan was his name. This was definitely the different form of spelling for Raman Kan, Rahman Khan only. --Darz kkg 11:30, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Factual Accuracy of the article

Okkar, chauvinist , servant of the Apartheid Regime is trying to vandalise this article. He is blinded by the hate of Islam and could not see my (more than enough) references. He is trying to erase and change the history of Islam in Burma so that his masters, Military Rulers could labelled all of us as recent migrants to revoke our citizenships. This is the clear case of attempted genocide. I never asked him or nor had ever given references as to search in the library. He is twisting the truth/factsDarz kkg 10:09, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Constructive criticism is useful for a page, however I would like to gently remind all editors on this page - Please refrain from making personal attacks, comment on the content not editors. Regards, xC | ☎ 12:54, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Please refrain from using such inflamatory remarks and accusations without any supporting evidence. Regardless of whether i work for the government or not is not the issue here, but the factual accuracy of this article is. Although you have provided reference, most of them are unverifiable and some are political and racial propaganda materials to serve aggressive promotion of particular point of view, in this case Islamization of Burmese history. This is in clear breach of Wikipedia NPOV policy. A person does not have to be racist to question the factual accuracy of this article. Also, you must remember that you cannot use wikipedia as a supporting reference for any other purpose, i.e. legal and political dispute as you have stated above. Wikipedia is an encylopedia, as such the content must be "verifiable" and must be accurate. Okkar 13:12, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

To be honest, I also have doubts on many of the important statements in this article. I have edited some of the statements/events in strict accordance with the Glass Palace Chronicle originally cited by Darz kkg. For instance: implications of King Kyanzittha on the deaths of Shwe Byin brothers. And Ngayaman Kang being a muslim according to earlier reference "The Glass Palace Chronicle" is also inaccurate, but Darz kkg has changed/corrected the references to another source. But most of these new citations here refer to this book: “The Muslims of Burma” A study of a minority Group, by Moshe Yegar, 1972, Otto Harrassowitz. Wisbaden, and this book is an extremely rare book and not avaialble in most libraries. Moreover, references such as "Various Myanmar History tax-books of Ministry of Education, Myanmar" are too broad to cite accurately as there will be more than 50 books on this one reference alone. When I looked at the reference "The Glass Palace Chronicle", it was not written as the statements in this article - referenced to it. It seems to be serious misinterpretations. It maybe an honest mistake/overlook by Darz kkg but it should be looked into more detail sense. That is why I have commented about citations issues here above. I won't edit anything without more reference books with me, but I agree this article needs at least "Peer Review" from other wiki editors with knowledge on research. Regards, Kyaw 2003 18:48, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I just had a first pass at removing non-referenced subjects, the subjects that have no relevance to the article, speculative sentences that are either without supporting reference materials or self referenced source (i.e. article written by one self). I left all the explanation in summary for each edit so that everyone can see the reason why i removed certain parts of the article. This is to ensure that everyone knows that I have acted in good faith and have no other motivation whatsoever. There is still much work to be done to bring this article in line with Wikipedia policy - especially on the ground of factual accuracy and NPOV. I hope other editors from WikiProject Myanmar/Burma would come forward to help with this article. I believe most editors are afriad of being labelled as racists and being accussed of committing genocide or threatened with ICC. Darz kkg did use the "race" card to kept anyone from making factual corrections to this article, which I think is entirely unreasonable thing to do. You should not use "racism" as an excuse to get upper hand in particular dispute. It is wrong and should not be tolerated. It is not racist to question or correct the factual inaccuracy of particular articles. Okkar 20:09, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Complaints about unfair editings on all the Myanmar related Muslim articles in Wiki

Dear Wiki Editors,

I hope, at least one of you have got hold of the following book and already knew that the multiple insulting tags put by Okkar in all the Myanmar Muslim related articles are wrong.

“The Muslims of Burma” A study of a minority Group, by Dr. Moshe Yegar, 1972, Otto Harrassowitz. Wisbaden.

I had distributed few hundred copies of this book to my friends when I was in Burma. I just asked them to copy at least two copies each and redistribute again to their friends. (I hereby apologize Moshe Yegar for the copyright crime I committed but I hope he could understand that anyway he could not sell the new copies in Myanmar. )

I hereby take this opportunity to praise this great man, Moshe Yegar as the person who had done the greatest thing on earth for the Muslims in Myanmar. For me he is greater than all the OIC Muslim leaders’ combined virtues. Because of this Jew’s act, I used to pray to God to give an understanding and Peace in Middle-East so that we all could stay together as friends forever. I salute you from the bottom of my heart Dr. Moshe Yegar.

This book is also tanslated into Burmese by War Khae Ma Maung Min Naing. (Published by Islamic Academic Science for its members as a restricted publication, in August 2002.)

Famous Muslims in Burma

Okkar had erased many famous Myanmar Muslims with the lame excuse of no citation, references and with a remark as not a notable person. He could blankend the whole pages without discussion in the talk page but he is insisting that others must discuss first before he allow to post about the famous Myanmar Muslims.

According to Okkars eyes, no one is notable (except the few) if one is a Myanmar Muslim.

• Health Minister and several MPs are not notable because they are Rohingyas. Okkar, it is more notable because Muslims and Rohingyas could be elected to those positions before your Mlitary Masters took over. You accused that the facts are political propaganda. But they are TRUTH and the politically right propaganda. Do you just wish your political masters Myanmar Military Point of View could be read in Wiki? Are you helping the erasing of Rohingyas from Burmese Political history?

• Muslim academicians Professors, Rectors of Universities were erased.

• Chairman of History Commission is not worth a place in Wikipedia.

• Chairman of Election Commission was a Muslim and was marked for elimination.

• In POOR Myanmar/Burma, Daw Pu donated millions and built a Kidney hospital and even General Ne Win had given her honour. She is not a notable person.

• Writers and actors are also not notable.

• Ye Soe, the brother of richest Burmese Indian Muslim, wrote more than 100 of books. I had even read ALL his books. He is not fit to even mention a sentence in Wiki just because he is a Muslim.

• Colonel (Tat Hmu Gyi) U Pho Kar during the reign of Burmese Kings is also not notable.

According to Okkar, even Senior General Than Shwe’s stepfather would be irrelevant, as he was a Muslim. (I have to agree with this because Okkar would be right.) (No citation needed because the whole Kyaukse knew this story. His half brothers, his mother’s children with that Muslim stepather are still in Taungoo. One of them is even the Imam of a Mosque.) However, if because of the hatred of that step father or if because he was teased by the Kyaukse town folks as Kala Gale (son of an Indian or Indian boy), Sr Gen hate Muslims, runaway from home at the age of 10 year and enlisted as a child soldier, then the step father must be a notable person.

De-Islamization of Myanmar

Okkar naively accused me of Islamization of Myanmar History. Actually I am just writting the real facts about our Muslims in Burmese History. The truth is_ he is the one, trying to propagate the de-Islamization of Myanmar concept of Myanmar Military, into Wikipedia.

Repeated abuse of Wikipedia NPOV policy guidelines

• Okkar is repeatedly abusing or invoking the Wikipedia NPOV policy guidelines.

• But he is not offering the Neutral point of view but the Myanmar Military's point of views only, on all Islam articles.

• (See his edits, arguments and contributions in Myamar/Burma issue, repeated blanking of NLD Flag , repeated vandalization in Islam in Myanmar, Burmese Indians, Burmese Indian Muslims, Panthays and Rohingyas etc. He even erased the Rohingya People from the list of unofficial Ethnic group of Myanmar without a valid reason but from the Myanmar Miliary Point of View.)

• All the edditions, contributions and comments are not representing the Neutral Point of view but just trying to trick all the Wiki editors to accept his extreme point of view as a Military agent povocator.

• If we look at his all the articles in Wiki, citaions and references are very rare. He seems to had cut and paste them from some essays or just fictions or his opinions only.

• If he had taken from Myanmar Military archieves, are there any “Violation of Copyrights?” We all should invoke that Wiki rule and erase all his articles.

• If not, if he got permission, then those facts may be biased Myanmar Military POVs and would be against the Wikipedia NPOV policy guidelines. We should invoke that rule nd erase all his articles.

Okkar, you accused me of using racial card.

But because you are working for the Myamar Military government it may be_

• Pot calling the kettle black.
• Father crab telling the baby crab to walk straight.

• Actually there is an Islamophobia in Myamar Military.

• Because of that fear they hate us and discriminate us. Myanmar Military is having Bama Buddhist supremacist view. Okkar can't win over us with your fanatic offecive edition using so much hatred and aggression. Your ignorance and denial of the roots of Islam in Myanmar and arrogance of power given by your MI masters is not going to help in the understanding and forging an engagment between Muslims and Buddhists in Myamar.

• Okkar, I hope all the people could understand where to search if someone cited the paragaph from the constitution. My paragraph you erased was clearly written that I had taken from our 1st. Constitution. You should not erase that with the lame excuse. Go and see that constitution. This is not the case disputing whether it was rejected by your present illegal government. Just mentioning the facts in that Constitution only. I shown you the TIGER, you closed your eyes and asking me that you had never see me tracing the tiger's footprints.

• You eased the Supreme Court verdict. You should prove that there is no such case. You even never care to discuss at the talk page but just do what you like.

About the PMs statement_

• before getting the reply from Bengladesh Embassy, you decided fit to erase. If you get the affermative answer, you could still say that those are heresay evidences. Ask your Military Masters whether they had erased the historical records thoroughly?

Okkar’s lies caught

• I put the vandelism tags in Okkar's talk page.
• He erased and revenge with multiple insulting tags.
• Okkar had also erased the Sockpuppet tags from his talk page.
• He lied that he never erase and even challenged Wiki editors to investigate. What a shame for a blatant lies.

• Shakespeare once said, “The bigger the lie is, the more people would believe in it”.

• Dr Joseph Gobbles, propaganda Minister of the Third Reich said, “Repeat a lie a thousand times and it becomes the truth ...”

Byat Wi and Byata issue_

You keep on reverting accusing those young children as alcoholic without any citation. All the people and many history books recoded as they were playing only. Almost all of their present day followers are alcoholic. But this is not the proof that those young boys were alcoholic.

1.Anawrattha and Kyansittha had started the use of Child soldiers.
2.Anawrattha and Kyansittha had tried to use Child Labour.
3.Anawrattha and Kyansittha had ordered the forced labour
4.Anawrattha and Kyansittha had ordered the forced labour even on the children.
5.Anawrattha and Kyansittha had punished the people including the children who refused to obey their orders asking for the forced labour.
6.Anawrattha and Kyansittha had even forced the non-Buddhists to built Buddhist worshiping place , a pagoda.
7.Anawrattha and Kyansittha were lucky that ILO was not there. ILO could pull them to the ICC for the above crimes as ILO had planned for your present day SPDC.
8.SPDC scared and givein. Those two Kings are Heroes and Icons of Myanmar Military and SPDC.
9.They are continuing the crimes of those two kings. Muslim Mosques were destroyed and forced the Muslims to built Buddhist Monastries and Pagodas. (If "Colonel" Okkar want citation, I can give. Just see at your partner criminal "Democratic" Buddhist Karen rebels' activities and your SPDC soldiers activities in Rakhine.)

TYPICAL Case of 8th. stage of Genocide. Denial and coverup!

• Now OKKAR is trying to cover up his and the Crimes of successive Myanmar Military goverments starting from Ne Win and the crimes of their icon Burmese kings and putting the blames on the victims, innocent two children as alcoholics.

• Just look at the history of those articles, Muslim Persecusion chapter and Okkars’ contributions or vandalism. This is the TYPICAL Case of 8th. stage of Genocide, i.e. Denial and coverup!

• Yes Okkar, there is enough evidences for the Preliminary Indictment of Genocide on you.

Wiki is not a place for propaganda warfare

• What your political masters (it would be more appropriate to call military masters) are doing on all of us is too much! Yes this is my POV. I know your POV which you could bluff as “neutral”.

• And I know that you are going to write that Wiki is not the place for the political fight or religious fight.

• Because you are agessively promoting the Myanmar Military point of view or propaganda warfare as a well trained Military Intelligent Agent active in Wiki we have no other choise but to bring the fight to Wiki to expose you.

Okkar’s Sockpuppet investigating about my background_

I know that your Sockpuppet Arzar Ni Thwe wrote:to Burma Digest Chief Editor and Publisher Dr Tayza, tayza thuria on 4/16/07, (One day after our great fight)to investigate about me. And on 4/18/07, Arzar Ni Thwe wrote again. I hope all the Wiki editors could now realize the true nature of Okkar.

Trying to search and punish me

• I know that you could push your political master Myanmar Mlitary to search and punish me and probably my family and relatives. I am ready to pay my life for my religion and race. Read back Hammurabi law. We all oppositon would start this phase of revolution if you all push too much!

• But I am an optimist and see all the obsticles as blessings in disguise from God.

• Even your vandalism made my boring articles noticed by many Wiki readers and editors and help them notice the plight of all the people in Burma under the oppressive Military Government.

• If no one oppose, I could not write these rebuttals. Now I could write in a lot of facts regarding poor state of human rights, religious intolerences, discriminations and the lack of individual freedoms etc. in Myanmar.

Darz kkg 13:24, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

You have been warned for your racially motivated personal attacks and unfounded accusations. If you carry on, you will be block from Wikipedia. Okkar 17:23, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

okkar, you have no jurisdiction to threaten anyone with anything. Now troll away into the militarys lap, as the dog you are. Zarkow 125.24.209.1 09:01, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Ibid

I see there are a number of uses of Ibid in the references. The use of Ibid is discouraged in Wikipedia (see WP:Ibid) mostly due to the nature of a constantly edited online encyclopedia compared to the stable format of a printed encyclopedia. Jeepday (talk) 13:13, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes Jeepday. TQ for your very precious advice on Ibid. I had overlooked them and I will try to fix them. I had noticed that after some editions some of the references were corrupted or deteriorated, because of my wrong use of ibid and I had even found that it is quite troublesome to fix back.

After fixing the references, I will stay away for some time to give chance to other editors to edit and improve my articles up to the Wiki standard. --Darz kkg 11:05, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

The Emergence Of The Panthay Community At Mandalay

The Emergence Of The Panthay Community At Mandalay, by Professor U Maung Maung Lay, I referred in this article, was the original research paper’s photocopy I got from him. Recently I found that research paper edited and published in the “Essays given to Than Tun on his 75th birthday” in the book, Studies in Myanmar History volume 1, published by Innwa Publishing House (in 1999) . No 136/6, 36 street. Kyauktada T/S. Yangon, Myanmar. This is the first of the three felicitation Volumes by the Colleages and students of Than Tun, retired Professor of History, University of Mandalay, given on his 75th birthday. First published February 1999. Than Tun Diamond Jubilee Publication Committee. 158 (A) Yogi Kyaung Road. Hlaing XI, Yangon, Myanmar.

The Emergence Of The Panthay Community At Mandalay, by Professor U Maung Maung Lay, was on the fifth chapter of the book, from page 91 to 106.--Darz kkg 16:34, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Commendations on this article

Out of utility, it's often the case that editors leave mostly critical comments, but I want to commend the previous editors (mainly one person, who started the article) for all the fine work and thought that went into it. It's got fascinating details and, although it is poorly sourced and offers a bit too much opinion in places, it could be fixed up over time. Citing Marxist sources (and other wiki articles that outline main ideas about colonialism, etc.) would be helpful - much needed. The views on history expressed here are not unusual, there should be ways to link this up to pages on philosophy of history (Leo Tolstoy comes to mind - although his article needs so much work, it isn't a good resource right now). Anyway, this article definitely deserves its B rating - and I hope my comments are helpful in its getting to a higher status.Levalley (talk) 20:34, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Kindly allow me to remove the admin tags from my articles

Actually, I am not bragging, I had gathered facts from about 150 books for the Muslims in Burma/Myanmar articles in about twenty years. However, as I failed to record properly the source of each information, my first posting in the Wiki was labeled or tagged to be deleted quickly. In addition, it was accused as easy entry or cut and paste article.

Although Wiki editors and administrators are 100% right in their decision but they should made a new ruling to go slow and give some time to the new comers like me. In addition, most of the Wiki editors are busy and made quick but sometimes wrong decisions. Just look at the two blocks on me. Instead of trying to mediate, negotiate, or actually trying to understand the fuss, just made a quick decision in haste. Nevertheless, I must admit that I also have to take the blame as I could not calmly watch my articles butchered and had made a rude fight.

As I could not keep all the reference books with me all the time or have leisure to review all of them immediately, I just go through my article and put the references, on estimation only. At least it works to prevent them from deletion by overenthusiastic editors. I am not telling that they are wrong. They are just doing their jobs according to the Wiki rules and regulations. I was to take the blame for that blunder but I had committed in good faith. And Wiki administrators should review those strict rules of deleting the articles. Just give us some more time.

Please read the following two stubs_

1. Myanmar ( Burmese ) Democracy and Human Rights online media.
2. Talk:Myanmar ( Burmese ) Democracy and Human Rights online media

Now, I got hold of some books back (some of my books were left behind in Burma, some borrowed by friends, some from the various university libraries) and I had successfully put in the citations.

It is a blessing in disguise that my articles look original but supported by references. It do not looked as if easy entry, copied from others. For example, as I had stated, my “Anti-Indian Riots” earlier paragraphs' basic facts are taken from Maurice Collis' "Trials in Burma". I lost the book, maybe someone borrowed and never give back) so I could not give the references up to the page level. But I managed to put the citations from "The Muslims of Burma” A study of a minority Group, by Moshe Yegar. At least I could prove that the facts are not my POV only nor my imiginatory fictions only but other third party, a respectable Israel Diplomet, PhD holder’s MSc thesis book. Actually all the citations and references in all my articles are just searched and given.

So, as my three articles below

1. Islam in Myanmar
2. Burmese Indians and
3. Panthay

are supported or cited with appropriate references from

1. Moshe Yegar’s "The Muslims of Burma”
2. The Glass Palace Chronicle of the Kings of Burma, translated by Pe Maung Tin and G.H.Luce, Burma Research Society,
3. History Professor U Maung Maung Lay’s The Emergence Of The Panthay Community At Mandalay, published in the “Essays given to Than Tun on his 75th birthday” in the book, “Studies in Myanmar History” volume 1,.
4. “Twentieth Anniversary Special Edition of Islam Damma Beikman.” Myanmar Pyi and Islamic religion.The reprint of the records of the lectures given by Pathi U Ko Lay in 1973.
5. Facts about Anti-Indian Riots are published in_
   

a.Human Rights Watch
b.Country Reports on Human Rights Practices , Released by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor, by US States Department
c.Amnesty International
d.Office of UN High Commissioner for Human Rights
e.US Department of State, International Religious Freedom Report
f.UK Conservatives’ Human Rights
g.The Persecution of Muslims in Burma by Karen Human Rights Group
h.Butkaew, Samart. "Burmese Indians: The Forgotten Lives", Burma Issues.

The facts I wrote are not my POV only but the POV of multiple above sources. Other Wiki editors could help edit to tone down the style and to look more neutral. But as the successive Myanmar Military rulers had brain washed the Burmese citizens that all Muslims are mixed blooded and recent migrants not worth issuing the citizenship of Myanmar, at least my articles could prove that although there may be some illegal immigrants, most of us are staying for few generations in Myanmar as citizens.

I searched these facts to publish a book on Muslims in Burma/Myanmar. Now I had contributed free of charge to Wiki all of my research for twenty years. Anyway thank you Wiki, Wiki Administrators, Wiki Editors for all the edits, guidance, help preventing vandalism etc. I hereby wish to mention my special thanks to_

1. Hintha
2. Kyaw2003
3. User:Cgilbert76
4. Chris
5. Bojokemujee
6. and all the other editors who had edited my articles.
7. I hereby request Okkar to come back to Wiki and continue to contribute in Wiki . Although we have difference in opinions, I appreciate his ability and skills.

I wish to assure Kyaw2003 and others that I never meant to insult my fellow Buddhist brothers nor I wish to incite the racial hatred or revenge by writing these articles. But we all need to know _

1. the origin, roots or ancestors of Burmese Muslims.
2. the root causes of racial riots.

to avoid the further conflicts.

Actually any one with vested interest could start racial riots; Government, part of the Government who wish to discredit the top leaders and wish to perform a coup (like Myanmar Military Intelligent wing under General Khin Nyunt) or even the opposition.

I am not an Islamic radical. Just look at my Darz kkg. I had contributed a lot of useful non Islamic articles for our country.

But if you care to read the following articles, you could understand what the Muslims in Burma want.

1. United We Stand, Divided We Lose [7]
2. We are all Burmese in our heart [8]
3. We also Love Burma, part 1 (Burmese)[9]
4. We also Love Burma, part 2 (Burmese) [10]
5. Complaining of unfair attitude On Religious Minorities including Muslims [11]
6. Opening Heart on Equal Rights for All Ethnic Groups [12]

So please may you kindly allow me to remove the folloing tags from my articles_
You all are free to edit as you like on those articles.

Thank you all.--Darz kkg 10:54, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with the removals of those tags. I sincerely thank you for your contributions but I think it is not the right time to remove the tags, yet.

The article is still biased in any neutral point of view. There are still many speculations and inaccuracies not to mention disputed and non verified claims and conclusions even though you have cited references. Let me point out one or two very quick points. In section 3.2. Muslims under General Ne Win, citing the destruction of the Buddhas of Bamiyan as a source of Muslim riots is inaccurate under the subtitle. It happened in 2001 which was more than 12 years after U Ne Win has stepped down. It should be under SPDC subtitle, and later events have nothing to do with U Ne Win anymore even if you would argue that it was U Ne Win who started these kind of non senses in making scapegoats. You have also omitted a lot of other events in the riots in the section. Muslims and Buddhists attacked each other according to your references, but you have omitted the Muslim attacks and retaliations on Buddhists and highlighted only the Buddhist attacks towards Muslims. Indeed, it was genuine Buddhist monks who had hidden and protected the Muslims from government backed thugs' attacks. Those monks who started the riots were hand phone carrying government agents according to your sources.(See reference "Crackdown on Burmese Muslims: Human Rights Watch Briefing Paper" July 2002)[13]. Since you have obmitted such events and highlighted only the negative aspects, how could a Wiki reader justify the events occurred from your articles in Wiki?

Another quick point will be U Nu's removal of BMC from AFPFL. U Nu did not remove BMC because of the decree making Buddhism as state religion or as a discrimination against Muslims. BMC was the only religious association within AFPFL at the time and it was not proper to have a religious organization buried inside AFPFL, cited U Nu. It became a weak point for AFPFL in staying religiously neutral. Even though BMC's name tag was removed, all the members of BMC were absorbed into AFPFL with mutual agreement and understanding. I would suggest you to have a look on this since I do not remember the exact source (See U Nu's Tartay Sanaythar and books alike). It was not as you suggested in your section "Muslims under U Nu" and the section is wrongly leading the readers.

This is only two points that I have noticed in my watch list during recent days. There were other omissions and inaccuracies in the article which I have no time to point out. Indeed, there were many good sections in your article but they were contaminated by weak speculations, inaccurate, debatable and vague conclusions. In my opinion, your article needs many modifications, editing and make neutral and accurate to remove the tags. The tags should not be removed yet.

I am also concerned that you are using Wiki for your own purpose, raising Muslims issues collectively. If you would like to raise awareness of Muslim discrimination in Myanmar, I would suggest you to use your own blog, or online journals like Burma Digest. Please do not use Wikipedia as a tool for your course. I have raised this point to you so many times. I won't comment why other Wiki admins and editors block you but I would suggest you to stick to the Wiki's original purpose of being a bias free online reference source and I suggest you to help making it possible. Thanks and regards, --Kyaw 2003 13:37, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Ko Kyaw2003, I hope you have heard the following fable, as told by W. Chafe.

There was once a Wolf, who saw a Lamb drinking at a river and wanted an excuse to eat it. For that purpose, even though he himself was upstream, he accused the Lamb of stirring up the water and keeping him from drinking...

To understand this, one must realize that the Wolf is lying! To understand the key conjunctive "even though" one must realize that contamination never flows upstream.

I hope you would not be foolish enough to stress to put the alleged plight of minority whites in Apartheid article in Wiki. And I hope you would not even think about the unjustifiable lame excuses of alleged Muslim grieviences leading to September 11, 2001 attacks articles. Nor any one would accept to put in the excuses given by Nazi’s for committing the Holocaust article in Wikipedia. Neutral POV in those three cases must be applied in my articles. Why are you stubbornly hold that it is my POV only when I had cited many notable authorities in this field supporting my POV which is correct. This is the POV of a notable Israel Diplomat Dr Moshe Yega, Glass Palace Chronicle and many International Groups including UN and US.

Yes Ko Kyaw, some lamb may fight back. Some coloured Africans may have done some revenge on whites and some Jews may have done injustices on Aryan Nazi Germans.

In addition, yes Ko Kyaw, I had seen the photos of the predators; wolves, dogs, tigers giving breast feedings to the lambs etc. Moreover, not all Germans are bad and many of them had helped a lot of Jews. The same thing is true for whites. There are far more better whites than a small minority whites exploiting during the Apartheid period. And I even had wrote in my article about the good Buddhist monks (you may be surprized, even if any drunkard make a noisy scene infront of my clinic, few Buddhist monks used to pull them and protect me although they were not aiming to me but fight among themselves).

Just read my article Myanmar Muslim activists in Wiki, Islam in Myanmar, Burmese Muslim Personalities_

Especially Dr Kyaw Nyein , a Burmese Muslim, had a very good relations with the very powerful and famous Mandalay Young Buddhist Monks and to some extent successful in countering the agent provocateurs from inciting the anti Muslim sentiments. Because of his request, real monks influential in Mandalay searched and confiscated and destroyed nearly hundred thousand anti-Muslim pamphlets allegedly distributed the Myanmar Military secret agents. Although reported to the authorities, no one was arrested for that crime in a country where many people were arrested, tortured and jailed for printing or photocopying or distributing any anti-government papers or even for distribution of the Human Rights Declaration from UN office.

And Ko Kyaw, FYI, I was there together with Dr Kyaw Nyein during racial riots. When we were surprised and did not know what to do with that truck load of pamphlets during the riots, Sayadaw from Mya Taung Tike even advised us just to destroy them by burning in the monastry field and ordered the young Koyins to help carry and pile up those pamphlets to burn. We brought our Muslim religious leaders including Mandalay division Maulvi to apologize and request the Buddhist Sayadaws. Real monks are much better than what most of us could even expect or imagine.

My POV is just accept us as real brothers and sisters to rebuild our beloved country, Burma/Myanmar. Please stop the attack on us in Myanmar and in Wiki.

Your POV is crystal clear, Ko Kyaw, anti-Islam, anti-Indian. Although my POV is supported by multiple independent reputable sources. You are the one who is blinded by bias and Racial Supremist policy. You are the one who started all the fuss. See how you read and interpreted the Pe Maung Tin and G.H.Luce, The Glass Palace Chronicle of the Kings of Burma". You wrote, The name "Nga Yaman Kan" usually means one eyed man in Burmese.

You blatantly mis-spelled Nga Ramankan to Nga Yaman Kan. It was a big lie amounting to a crime Ko Kyaw. (Yes it is a varient and many people including me, you could see this in my King Sawlu article, to avoid the racists’ unnecessary attacks.) But do you understand that by purposely miss-spelling Nga Raman Kan’s name from that book as Nga Yaman Kan to trick Wiki editors and trying to subortage the Islam articles could also lead you to the Hague.

As we have to learn Forensic Medicine and as we need to give expert evidences in the police cases such as assaults and murders, when we look at the wounds, we could most of the time know whether they were the results of self-defense as every body has the right to the self-defense. However, if the victim was just holding a stick, if you use the knife or gun, it is not easy to claim a self-defense. After all, if you pump the whole magazine of bullets into the victim’s chest and head and especially after the victim fell down and could not harm you anymore, your aggressiveness is exposed and after the vicious attack, you could not hide behind the cloak of self-defense. You exposed and use my weakness in references but concealed and lied by misspelling the Nga Ramankan to Nga Yaman Kan and your cohort “Colonel” Okkar put the multiple insulting tags at all my articles. Now I had corrected all the references after I had given more than enough citations for my articles. However, you have given lame excuses to put back the tags.

Yes you are right, my articles are not perfect. You are always welcomed to correct the mistakes. And if you care to see, another contributor Bojokemujee had posted most of those atrocities under Military rule. Nevermind you can blame me but please made sure that if you put any of your POV, please kindly give irrefutable sources and citations. Ko Kyaw, no article or book is perfect for every one. Even Holy books of God, like Bibles, Tri Pidaka, Torah and Koran may be not be perfect for the non-believers. I am just a human being. You all need to improve this but not by vandalism or with insults.

Ko Kyaw, thank you for suggesting me to have my own blog, or write in the online journals like Burma Digest. TQ, yes, I have done that and on numerous times. Just see my user page, Darz kkg . But what are you and Okkar to tell that I am wrong to write these articles in Wiki. First you all tried to kick Muslims out of Myanmar and now, are you all trying to kick out Burmese Muslim articles from Wiki? No way Mr Kyaw. We are here to stay. You all could continue your Genocide attempt on Burmese Muslims in Wiki and so called Myanmar.

Where are the always enthusiastic, overactive Wiki editors and Administrators like: User:Rlevse and Ryūlóng (竜龍) to mediate our dispute? I hereby demand your vote or opinion or mediation regarding those unnecessary tags. You should not come to the scene of a fight, give a haste ‘judgment’ punished the victim and run away, just to show off your power and to show off how many decisions you had given. You could cite thousands of Wiki rules and regulations that your judgment is right but it is morally bankrupt and wrong not to look into the root cause of a dispute or try to mediate on that matter.

It is the time to take out most of the insulting tags Ko Kyaw. No need to wait until cows comes back. The vicious multiple repetitive tags show your animosity. Your nasty attacks show the true nature and show that your excuses of self-defense is no more valid.

I herby remove the excessive vicious unnecessary tags. Two is enough. Come on Administrators, if you think I am wrong think about this dispute and give decision. I would not remove again. Nevertheless, I cannot accept the aggressors or potential Genocide criminals’ decision to continue desecrate my articles.Darz kkg 06:57, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Ko Darz_kkg,

I am sorry that you misunderstand me. My point was clear. There is still dispute, and the articles are not in neutral point of view. That is my point.

I have never been an anti-Muslim as you have accused me or never will be. I just don't take non-verified facts and in-accurate speculations and conclusions in Wiki articles regarding our country (yours and mine). The articles are very sensitive in nature and you shall be very careful or there will be big consequences. That is what I have been trying to say to you for about 3 months now. What you have written in these articles may be 100% true, or say 80% true or 50%. But the point is - it is hard to conclude what is true and what is not, at this moment, and there still is a dispute between Government and Democratic activists, dispute between Arakans and Rohingyas, dispute between Historians etc regarding Islam in Myanmar. And there are many unverifiable facts and speculations.

Thus, I have objected the removal of the dispute/unverified/essay tags. You have discussed a lot of irrelevance points in this discussions using stories and tales but never got to the point. It's a waste of time for both you and me. I am not someone who argue in Wikipedia. Look at my history in Wiki since mid 2005, and it goes back till 2003 when I did not have an account, and this is my first argument. But I am only sorry that I just can't explain my point to you clearly.

The second point is using Wiki as a tool to promote a POV. But let's not go there. I abjure my previous accusation regarding this point to you. Even though I strongly feel somehow that way, I have no right to judge you. My apologies.

I agree with you in leaving one Dispute Tag. I don't think it's an insult to have the tags when necessary but it's ok. No problem with the removal of other tags for me, but I do not know what will other neutral editors think about the tags. My point is still very strong and clear, there is dispute, the article is not neutral and there are inaccuracies. Thus, the article may needs these tags. Thanks and regards. --Kyaw 2003 11:20, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Update:

I have overlooked your points regarding calling me a lier, a racist, and accused me of association with Okkar. I rebuff your accusations in the strongest possible way and my edit histories will prove by themselves. No wonder why Wiki admins and editors block you twice within a very short time. I won't argue with you on these; spelling Nga Yaman Kan or Nga Raman Kan, or Kan refers to a blind man etc are lies or not and such kind. These are easy facts to see for everyone. I am absolutely stunned and disgusted by your accusations and regret that Wikipedia has a person like you editing. --Kyaw 2003 13:09, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality tag needs to stay - and if the bias of editors continues to show up strongly in the article, the COI tag may need to be added. The article contradicts itself several times, but then abruptly resolves these conflicts always in favor of certain parties. For example, the press is always irresponsible, instigating bad policy, etc., etc. If that's true, very reputable inline citations need to be there and the sections regarding these events much expanded. I could go on, but I think to any neutral reader, the problems in the article are obvious (even when they are not necessarily enormous).Levalley (talk) 20:43, 3 April 2009 (UTC)