Talk:LGBT rights in the United Arab Emirates

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    Laundry list of "penalties" removed[edit]

    I have removed the following from the lead, infobox and summary table:

    Punishments include death, life in prison, floggings[1][2][3] fines, deportation, chemical castration,[4][5][3] forced psychological treatments,[6] honor killings,[4] vigilante executions,[7] beatings,[8][9][10] forced anal examinations,[11] forced hormone injections,[12][13] and torture.[8][14][10]

    Some, or all, may need to go back into the article, most likely in the body, if proper sourcing is found. But most are not penalties, so if included again, will need to be detailed in their correct context. Putting here in meantime, for the record. AukusRuckus (talk) 13:22, 23 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    Above post is in no way agreement or encouragement for the very poorly sourced, or entirely unsourced, material to be placed back into the article. We don't leave "weak sources" for highly doubtful statements as "placeholders" within the article, as stated in the reinserting edit summary. AukusRuckus (talk) 07:06, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    What part of the policy says that. Show me. Littlepersonlavalamp (talk) 22:26, 24 October 2022 (UTC) [Blocked sockpuppet of Jacobkennedy, most recently editing as Lmharding 01:49, 25 October 2022 (UTC) ][reply]
    Sources

    1. ^ "Dignity Debased: Forced Anal Examinations in Homosexuality Prosecutions". Human Rights Watch. 12 July 2016.
    2. ^ "Little Mix feared arrest after showing Pride flag on stage in Dubai, says Jade Thirlwall". Attitude. 21 June 2021.
    3. ^ a b Amico, Sam (10 May 2022). "NBA to stage games in United Arab Emirates, where homosexuality punishable by death". Fox News Sports. OutKick.
    4. ^ a b Staff writer (18 March 2012). "REPORT: 30 Gays Arrested at Dubai Party". MambaOnline. Retrieved 2022-03-23.
    5. ^ Bollinger, Alex (17 August 2019). "The 1975's lead singer kissed a man on stage in Dubai to protest anti-gay laws". LGBTQ Nation.
    6. ^ Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights and Labor (2011). 2011 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices: United Arab Emirates (PDF) (Report). U.S. Department of State. Retrieved 26 May 2021.
    7. ^ "Matt Healy feels 'irresponsible' after kissing male fan at Dubai concert". Metro. 10 May 2020.
    8. ^ a b Ramón Mendos, Lucas (March 2019). International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans and Intersex Association (ed.). State-Sponsored Homophobia 2019 (PDF) (13th ed.). Geneva: ILGA. Retrieved 26 May 2021.
    9. ^ Duffy, Nick (22 December 2015). "Judge blocks extradition of gay British man to UAE, where gays can face death penalty". PinkNews. Retrieved 26 May 2021.
    10. ^ a b "British expats 'tortured and abused in UAE prisons'". The New Arab. 27 March 2018.
    11. ^ Together, apart: Organizing around Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity Worldwide, New York: Human Rights Watch, 2009, ISBN 978-1-56432-484-9 – via United Nations Refworld
    12. ^ Douglas, Benji (September 14, 2012). "Gays In The United Arab Emirates Face Flogging, Hormone Injections, Prison". queerty.com. Retrieved 26 May 2021.
    13. ^ "Arab gays face hormone treatment, prison". NBC News.
    14. ^ "Raped and tortured in a Dubai prison: Former managing director of Leeds United reveals the hell he endured after being jailed and outed as gay by authorities in UAE". (ICFUAE) International Campaign For Freedom in the UAE. 8 November 2017. Republished from The Daily Mail. [The man] spent 22 months in prison in Dubai after being accused of falsifying invoices and unlawfully channelling funds to a secret bank account.

    Mistreatment and abuse listed as "penalties": New discussion[edit]

    Discussion re-started by WP:SOCK on same points discussed with prior socks, elsewhere on this talkpage
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    Minor edit compromise most quotes are left in but all sources the community approved inside the conditions page gets placed in the summary as government controlled processes of legal punishments. The only quote combined and shortened is the one about interpretation of the law which is subjective and is not legal precedence, with no real legal standing so it is unfit for Wikipedia quotation. Laws are not open to "interpretation" they should be applied appropriately as written as that is why they exists and are written the way they are. If you disagree kindly give your reasoning here, 'please discuss here first' thank you. 155.137.183.249 (talk) 09:12, 28 December 2022 (UTC) [Block-evading sock using this IP, struck by AukusRuckus (talk) 16:39, 4 January 2023 (UTC)][reply]

    @Jacob, my response: Laws are, of course, open to interpretation (that's the basis of so much litigation in many jurisdictions), just not by WP editors in articles. On Wikipedia, analysis and interpretation by experts is appropriate and helpful. Attribution for the analysis you dispute was included, and the source quote even gave both views. Reliable sources relay that even UAE lawyers themselves use the "sexual assault" interpretation, though they concede there's no legal certainty on this (as judges have so far not needed to make a ruling on any specific interpretation of the provision). AukusRuckus (talk) 07:16, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    The quotes while they could be potentially somewhat helpful are too heavily emphasized we do not WP:RANT using the same piece in multiple section to take up a quarter of the page and so condensing it seems reasonable to keep the information concise remembering readability, avoiding WP:ARTI avoid source hijacking of the article so it stays on topic, and WP:TMI not letting one source take up too much overall. The interpretation of the law does not fit as WP:SPECULATION applies we are not here to interpret law we are not experts and WP:OPINION as how we think a policy and law applies is not valid either. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.137.183.249 (talk) 09:40, 28 December 2022 (UTC) [Block-evading sock using this IP, struck 16:39, 4 January 2023 (UTC)][reply]

    This is clearly rubbish, Jacob. Sources are used for whatever information they can provide, as long as it is relevant to the article, and the source is reliable. Quotes used here were a little more prominent than the average but were placed in response to your long-term campaign to insist that what the sources say, they do not say. Failing to realise your capacity to continue to say black is "white" in the face of the evidence, my attempts to satisfy your doubts were pointless. You were never going to concede, no matter how much evidence was provided.
    I am unable to respond to you further. If you wish an edit made, please use the protected page edit request facility, and some other editor will respond. Please do not expect me to discuss anything on WP with you ever again. I can't bear it any longer. AukusRuckus (talk) 07:16, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    @AukusRuckus: See my post above please.155.137.183.249 (talk) 09:48, 28 December 2022 (UTC) [Block-evading sock using this IP, struck 16:39, 4 January 2023 (UTC)][reply]

    As a start, I will restate what I think your arguments are:
    • You feel your change condenses the article to improve readability
    • You believe there's too much indiscriminate detail in the current version, per WP:TMI
    • Quotes from Amnesty International and ILGA, internationally known, credible experts, amount to WP:SPECULATION and WP:OPINION
    • Analysis of the legal situation in UAE by experts should not be included; it is the same as us, the editors of WP and non-experts, interpreting the law
    Is this a fair summation of the points you make? AukusRuckus (talk) 12:33, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    To sum up: list only legally-mandated, enforced penalties in the table and infobox, which is in line with WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE. AukusRuckus (talk) 07:16, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    LGBTQ rights Uae[edit]

    LGBTQ rights Uae 76.188.161.183 (talk) 15:56, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Semi-protected edit request on 3 July 2023[edit]

    In the ‘Censorship’ section, change “Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse Spider-Man” to “Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse” ElasticMelody (talk) 18:45, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Done Cherrell410 (talk) 21:52, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Capital punishment in infobox (again)[edit]

    I restored the infobox to previous state from this edit

    • (Similar earlier edits by same editor: [1]; [2])

    I believe there is no current clear source to support the death penalty as a legal sanction: I've been searching. There were amendments to the code in 2021 and again in 2022, which seem to be aimed at world opinion, possibly ruling out the death penalty for these offences. Article 1 now says:

    The provisions of the Islamic Shari'a shall apply to the retribution and blood money crimes. Other crimes and their respective punishments shall be provided for in accordance with the provisions of this Law and other applicable penal codes.

    Does this mean 'definitely not'? 'Perhaps not'? 'Yes'? Who knows: I certainly don't, and neither do you unless you are an expert in UAE law or can supply an up-to-date, unambiguous, reliable source. Even before the amendments, that ILGA report [1] used to source it in the infobox [2] says any capital penalty is "theoretical", or legally unclear, and for that reason should not have appeared in the infobox, even back then: it needs context and discussion in the body. It is WP:UNDUE without that.

    There is extensive discussion on this point in the talk archives, mostly in countering a block-evading sock who was determined "death" should appear there. This met with opposition even then, and that was before the penal code was changed twice; it seems a yet more tenuous penalty now. (Please don't make me go through this horror again! Only, sort of, joking.) Would appreciate it if this is not put into the box again unless there is a clear consensus to do so. AukusRuckus (talk) 08:33, 9 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    References

    1. ^ State-Sponsored Homophobia 2020 (PDF) (Report). ILGA. December 2020. pp. 81–82, 328. Retrieved 30 August 2023.
    2. ^ (it just says, in brief: "Death (P)" on a chart on the cited page, p. 328. There is a detailed explanation and discussion of the uncertainty on pp. 81–82)
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