Jump to content

Talk:List of prominent operas

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Talk:List of famous operas)
Former featured listList of prominent operas is a former featured list. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page and why it was removed. If it has improved again to featured list standard, you may renominate the article to become a featured list.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
August 29, 2006Articles for deletionKept
February 22, 2007Featured list candidatePromoted
March 14, 2019Featured list removal candidateDemoted
Current status: Former featured list

Somebody Help

[edit]

I have no idea why, but all operas between "1893" and "1898" are randomly invisible. They're written, but they don't show up on the page. This is very frustrating, and it means "La Boheme" is missing. Somebody help! --Thepinterpause (talk) 13:46, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Somebody didn't close some reference tags properly when using named refs, tags need to have /> at the end, or anything up tot he next closing tag is treated as being part of the reference (and only the text of the first occurence is actually shown. David Underdown (talk) 14:17, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Some operas in the late 1700s are also missing. The culprit appears to be this edit: [1]. For instance, Don Giovanni is no longer in the list... ugen64 (talk) 23:54, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Same thing - I think I've caught them all now. David Underdown (talk) 09:01, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why only to 1991?

[edit]

Why only to 1991? Please take some references from really new sources like "Mille et un opéras" (Kaminski, 2003). I can't imagine a list of most important operas without "Licht" (1981-2004) by Stockhausen. I think now that Boesmans with his new operas (Julie, Yvonne) is also noteworthy. Or Eotvos for example. --91.196.28.168 (talk) 13:26, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The list is not based on individual opinions of what is important, but was compiled using these criteria, which are quite specific. Additions require mention in 5 reference works. It would be worthwhile finding 4 more recent reference works in addition to Kaminski (2003) in order to add later operas. Voceditenore (talk) 13:59, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The problem with this approach of only using a set of books is that there is no way that major breakthrough composers can get on this list no matter how they are heralded. I am thinking of George Benjamin (composer), whose opera, Written on Skin, has been staged 8 times already in the 12 months since its premiere and has been claimed by some critics as the best opera written in the last 10 years [1]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.49.126.196 (talk) 12:07, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

References

Barber of Seville?

[edit]

Not important enough? 184.151.63.252 (talk) 18:17, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's listed here under its Italian title, Il barbiere di Siviglia. Voceditenore (talk) 18:56, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Les Misérables?

[edit]

1985, Les Misérables (Claude-Michel Schönberg)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.203.177.97 (talk) 10:35, 22 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Les Misérables is a musical, not an opera. Voceditenore (talk) 12:40, 22 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Orff Carmina Burana

[edit]

Just have found my connection to classical music, but somehow i feel like this list is missing Carl Orff's "Carmina Burana".

Maybe there's a reason i don't know why it's no in here. Maybe i should be. Would enjoy some educated answers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.94.234.59 (talk) 13:53, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there. Welcome to Wikipedia. While Carmina Burana requires operatically trained voices to sing it (especially for the soloists) and is occasionally performed in costume with scenic effects (although increasingly rarely), it isn't really an opera. Its composer called it a "scenic cantata". It's basically a series of poems set to music and grouped by related themes. Also, this list has specific criteria for inclusion: It's determined by a work's presence on a majority of compiled lists of significant operas. The "Lists Consulted" section has full details on how inclusion was worked out. Hope that helps. Voceditenore (talk) 14:16, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

→ Thx, you answered all my questions! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.94.234.59 (talk) 15:04, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Venus and Adonis

[edit]

I would like to add John Blow's Venus and Adonis to the list of "Significant firsts in opera history", it being considered the first English Language opera. This seems reasonable, given that the first French and German operas are present, and the work's significant influence on Purcell. Sound reasonable? Roadrunnertwice (talk) 09:44, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No Gilbert-Sullivan?

[edit]

Why there is no Gilbert and Sullivan operas? They're one of the most famous collaboration in music history. I tried to add their operas to the list but they were erased every time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Felix Modernssohn (talkcontribs) 04:45, 14 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Consistent policy on operetta inclusion

[edit]

I am keen to know if there is a consistent policy on including operettas. I see that Die Fledermaus and The Merry Widow are included in an opera list, but not the Gilbert & Sullivan operettas.

Die Fledermaus at least is regularly performed by major opera companies.Zagraniczniak (talk) 18:51, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Gilbert and Sullivan is also regularly performed by major opera companies, though? Certainly based on the English speaking world, but off hand I can recall Opera Australia doing a Mikado and I saw ENO have something on this season (2019-20)

(Beyondheat (talk) 21:10, 16 February 2020 (UTC))[reply]

Lully founded French opera, but not a single entry on the referenced lists.

[edit]

Lully was hugely influential in the history of opera, but seems to have been forgotten by all of the list compilers. It seems that disqualifies him from the main list, but he really should be included. Cadmus et Hermione established the form tragédie en musique, put French opera on the map, and began a century of Lully's influence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bwanasonic (talkcontribs) 03:32, 15 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed -- English language POV is pretty obvious by this exclusion, esp. in how much he influenced so many of the following operas, and he is performed much more often than other later notices. -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 06:22, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
To qualify for this particular list, there are conditions. It's historic, yes, it's thus bias, there have been discussions how to name it to clarify that but not successful. Perhaps make a different other list that really deserves this name. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:17, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Should Delius' A Village Romeo and Juliet (1907) be removed from the list?

[edit]

The article on A Village Romeo and Juliet (1907) says it's rarely performed as an opera (its US premiere was only in 1972, for example). Only one interlude from it features regularly in concerts, "The Walk to the Paradise Garden". Is it OK to remove it? OsFish (talk) 10:10, 30 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The sole criterion for inclusion on this list is found here. If A Village Romeo and Juliet is found in at least five of those sources, then it belongs on the list. If not, then it should be removed.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:06, 30 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The use of those lists is a way of operationalising the criterion of "importance", but is there no space for considering individual cases where the lists produce an opera that isn't recognisably "important" (such as it's very rarely performed)? OsFish (talk) 13:12, 1 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest you read the archived discussions of this talk page, particularly from Archive 3 onward. They are almost entirely to do with this very question.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:27, 1 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks - that's very helpful. I'll have a browse.OsFish (talk) 04:50, 3 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 10 July 2020

[edit]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to List of prominent operas. The current title is absurd, and honestly so is the title I'm moving this to, and it makes me think that a list of operas with such subjective inclusion criteria shouldn't even exist on Wikipedia. List of operas by date would be reasonable, but it might as well be List of operas, since the very reason this list exists is to have subjective criteria. "Prominent" at least should be more verifiable than "important" (maybe an opera is important in your opinion, maybe it's not, but if it doesn't show up in Google Books, it's probably not prominent). Honestly, WP:AFD should probably be summoned here, but as for WP:RM, since almost nobody likes the current title for very good reasons, I have to semi-arbitrarily pick one, and the late entry is the winner. (You wouldn't have guessed this result from the first several responses, but it's never over till the fat lady sings.) (non-admin closure) Red Slash 20:10, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]


List of important operas → ? – The word "important" is vague, undefined, and based on opinion. There has to be another option for naming this page, such as List of operas performed today ... but then "today" is subject to change. I'm not sure what title to use, but the title has to at least be a phrase that is not based on opinion or a timeframe that is subject to change almost immediately. Steel1943 (talk) 23:24, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]


The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Post move

[edit]

What happened to the principle: no consensus -> no action? How can a name that was was supported and opposed by two users be the outcome? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:57, 23 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, explained to the one who closed, and expected the close to be reverted. Will you please file close review? Or should we give them one more chance to undo? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:13, 23 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
IMO, this should have been relisted since it hadn't been yet. Also, the closing statement reads like a WP:SUPERVOTE. Steel1943 (talk) 15:53, 23 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with all above. This is nowhere near consensus to move. Antandrus (talk) 16:09, 23 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
OK, so here is another few hours later. Closure was not only premature, but completely unwarrented. This is just my personal opinion, of course but, like the closer's statement, ought to be counted as a WP:SUPERVOTE, because I do know what I am talking about.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 07:27, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I re-instated the status quo. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:37, 1 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
...And I've reverted that since reverting the move goes against policy since a WP:MRV was never filed. I'll try to get it filed here in a bit. Steel1943 (talk) 15:19, 1 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Move to List of notable operas which currently is a suboptimal redirect to Lists of operas

[edit]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus a simple counting of !votes shows that there is no consensus to move, however the arguments offered by the opposers are particularly convincing in that "notable" has a vague meaning in general use and on wiki has a specific meaning that would see every opera article listed here. Calidum also correctly notes that the "prominent" is also a word to avoid in titles according to WP:LISTNAME, meaning that this is not firm enough for me to say that there is a consensus against moving. "Great operas" has been suggested as an alternative and it, or another name with some basis in reliable sources, might usefully be the basis of a further RM discussion to establish a consensus on it, particularly referencing WP:CRITERIA and WP:COMMONNAME.(non-admin closure) FOARP (talk) 14:43, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]



List of prominent operasList of notable operas – Per the following:

The move review has been closed as no consensus and a suggestion that "Someone please propose a better name and let's have a restart"

I would like to suggest List of notable operas. This is a recently edited redirect that currently directs to Lists of operas ie, it's kind of going spare as that's not a great redirect. The challenge in naming this page is how to describe it in accordance with its inclusion criteria. It seems to me that being mentioned in a certain number of specific reliable sources is almost definitionally, a sign of notability. It also does not try to second-guess the inclusion criteria for these sources with words like "prominent" or "important".

What do you think?OsFish

...Which I support. Steel1943 (talk) 13:22, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I've hidden OsFish's signature time stamp from the above comment since it breaks RMCD bot from posting this discussion properly. Steel1943 (talk) 13:24, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Without some kind of qualifier, that would imply that it is a list of all operas, which it clearly is not. Rreagan007 (talk) 22:19, 10 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. I was tempted to close this as not moved because of WP:LISTNAME and its suggestion to avoid "notable" in the titles of lists. After reading the guideline, however, I have to note "prominent" is also mentioned as a term to avoid. -- Calidum 02:15, 1 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Calidum: Can you think of a better adjective to use? This request has been open for a month now and I see no signs of consensus forming. This discussion should just be closed as no consensus. If someone comes up with a better title idea, they can try again later with another move request. Rreagan007 (talk) 22:18, 10 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"significant" was suggested, and found some supporters, and would be better than "prominent" which nobody likes. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:05, 10 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nobody likes "prominent"? I like it just fine actually. Regardless, there clearly isn't consensus for changing the title to "notable" in this discussion. I suggest the current discussion be closed, and if people think there could be enough support for "significant" over "prominent", then a new requested move discussion can be started. Rreagan007 (talk) 00:23, 11 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There was no consensus for the previous move either, and it was moved anyway, based on 2 supporting !votes. That's why we're here. Maybe a similar miracle happens again. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:02, 11 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Rreagan007: I just saw your message now. Unfortunately this isn't my area of expertise, so I don't have an alternative suggestion. -- Calidum 22:24, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 18 November 2020

[edit]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

List of prominent operasSelect operas – Suggest this as possibly the best and most descriptive title for this grouping of operas. The current title appears to be unacceptable, along with words like "important", "notable" and "grand" to describe these operas. Even the most common term in sources, "great operas", has its inherent problems. So I propose we use the term "select operas" to describe operas which are still selected today by opera-loving audiences. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. put'r there 05:55, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • User:Paine Ellsworth, I see your point, but find it hard to agree. As mentioned in the previous RM, "Great operas" occurs in reliable sources, I don't think it controversial that these many operas are labelled "great". "Select" sounds like a third tier quality rating, and in other moments sounds like you meant "selected". Does "Select operas" have any basis in sources? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:00, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

While "great operas" has some support in the consulted sources, I suggest the term in general is too vague and doesn't describe many of the works listed here. Most published lists of "great operas" concentrate on regularly performed works in the repertoire. In this list, most works appear because they are "important" in the history of the genre, which brings us back to where we started.

I agree with with his assessment of the shortcomings of the term "great operas", and the term "select operas" is what I was trying to think of during that previous RM. "Selected operas" would also be acceptable to me; however, "select operas" is a tad more concise as well as being more well-defined and precise for this purpose than "selected operas". I have not found the title proposed in any of the sources, and I hope that is not a deal breaker. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. put'r there 06:15, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think a title not in any source, when there are un-excluded options such as "Great operas" that occurs frequently in sources, this is a deal breaker. I suggest a multi-option survey, with independent scoring of each option. I will do so below. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:40, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • User:SmokeyJoe's scoring of options on the table:
  • Score voting. Each candidate title is given a score, 0-10 out of 10. 0 is completely ridiculous. 10 is perfect. 5 is barely OK. I score for each it on its merits, regardless of other options, which means any number of options can be added. I am open to being challenged on any. Naturally, the agreed worst options will drop out of contention. You can infer my current preference is "Great operas" and I am OK with another two. I can score other options that others add later. The scores are for communication; I happen like discussing relative numerical scores. However, my scores are NOT for adding or averaging with others. Other people may not like numerical scoring. You may prefer to score with descriptions, eg "perfect", "good enough", "fair", especially if you wan tot make sure no inept closer comes in an closes on a calculation (would be worse than !vote counting). I think it is a good way to encourage new ideas and reject the worst early. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:52, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I hope you joke? "4/10" means "nice try, almost, but no". "10/10" means "perfect, obviously perfect" and you must be astounded that others don't agree. A "4/10" and a "10/10" given for the same thing means there is disconnect between perspectives, one or both are in error and conflict, and unreliable data should not be processed. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:58, 19 November 2020 (UTC) [reply]
  • Oppose. Good grief no. This does not even make sense. Softlavender (talk) 07:56, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • This List article does not purport to list every single opera article on Wikipedia. It is a much much more selective list which narrows the field to prominent operas -- specifically "all operas regularly performed today", as it says in the lead sentence -- not merely those which have Wikipedia articles.
You see, Softlavender, that is why I thought you might warm up to this proposed title. This is a select group of operas many if not all of which have been chosen, selected by modern opera goers to be attended over and over again. Guess I was incorrect. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. put'r there 10:30, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • ... only that the lead says "including all operas regularly performed today" - stress by me, - others are important or significant for other reasons, such as something new in composition, relevance for a national identity, you name it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:48, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well for me, in my humble opinion, your correct description actually is supportive of the term "select operas", which sets this group apart from other operatic works in a more neutral manner than "important" or "prominent". I could be wrong, as I do appreciate your use of "significant". But why not just Significant operas? Why is "List of" necessary here? P.I. Ellsworth  ed. put'r there 12:12, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Great operas - 8/10. Out of all the (not particularly great) options, this is probably the best and get support from the sources.
  • Prominent operas. 6/10 as with SmokeyJoe
  • All others 5/10.
I really hope everyone else will also do scores because really the only way we're going to get anything out of this is by settling for something less than perfect. FOARP (talk) 16:27, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • NOTE: This is a LIST article. The title of it is going to start with "List of" (WP:LISTNAME). Please stop suggesting titles other than in that format -- they are never going to gain consensus, and this just wastes the community's time. We've already wasted two months on the previous requested move. Since this RM is obviously a SNOW OPPOSE, I request that the filer withdraw and close this RM. As was clear at the previous RM, the current title is fine. Softlavender (talk) 03:13, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

What if Macfarren's Helvellyn was the most famous of all English operas

[edit]

What if George Alexander Macfarren's Helvellyn was the most famous of all English operas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.32.20.151 (talk) 16:02, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Opera in Portugal in the XIX century

[edit]

There's operas in Portuguese of XIX century:

  1. Francisco de Sa Noronha (1820-1881): Um filho famílias
  2. Joaquim Casimiro Junior (1801-1862): A filha do Ar
  3. João Arroio (1861-1930): Amor de Perdição
  4. Francisco de Freitas Gazul (1842-1925): A cebola mysteriosa

176.32.16.2 (talk) 18:05, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

How about Treemonisha?

[edit]

I've searched the Talk archives and this page, and I see no discussion of including Scott Joplin's Treemonisha, which was written in 1911 but not performed until 1972, when it created quite a stir and netted Joplin a posthumous Pulitzer. I did see that Treemonisha appeared in a couple of the notable-opera lists that were mentioned in the archive, but then no discussion after that. I'm not enough of an opera historian to be willing to add it on my own, but I figured I'd throw the idea out there to see what people think. Jbening (talk) 00:57, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ah--I just read the Lists consulted section. So I take it Treemonisha appears on fewer than five of the lists consulted? So if someone were to add an opera not on at least five of those lists, it would be removed by decree, since the article is by definition based on those lists? Jbening (talk) 01:09, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]