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@ScottishFinnishRadish: This page was reverted after a request at WP:RMUM as undiscussed and mover has moved it back again.
Ordinarily I would just move it back but since I would not like to be accused of tag teaming or something, I would merely point to Ngram and ask you to do it instead.Selfstudier (talk) 17:07, 21 August 2024 (UTC) Ops, meant to write WP:RM/TR there, silly me. Selfstudier (talk) 18:08, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It was created at this title, moved to Palestinian suicide bombing, then reverted back to this title? As Ngrams aren't the deciding factor in article titles, and it does show the use of Palestinian suicide terrorism, this should probably just go through RM and have a consensus title. Palestinian suicide attacks might also be a better target as there are suicide attacks that are not bombings. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:20, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@ScottishFinnishRadish: The discussion on whether to color this topic with the POV language of "terrorism", to which the answer is pretty clearly not, per MOS:TERRORISM, has been had reiteratively and redundantly many times. The edit summary character limit unfortunately cut it off, but the technical request referred to the latest standing RM on the matter of whether this language is appropriate in this topic area at the clear parent topic for the particular subject here. This community consensus was reconfirmed, in effect, in this follow-up category renaming discussion. Sure we can allow POV terms to be reintroduced every time someone creates a racey new article, but it would be much more sensible if we let previous RFCs and community consensus speak to something. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:55, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I understand why some might hesitate to label entire organizations—especially those involved in governance, religion, and social issues—as purely terrorist. However, it is unreasonable to ignore that suicide bombings deliberately targeting civilians for political purposes fit every definition of terrorism. Removing the term 'terrorism' in this context would be nothing short of censorship, an attempt to obscure the true nature of these actions, which, in my opinion, contradicts the very aims of this project. UnspokenPassion (talk) 19:26, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Except not all of the suicide bombings here target civilians, as the usage notes, and suicide bombings against military targets in the context are absolutely not terrorism, so by virtue of this, the title is immediately not only POV, but a clear misnomer. More generally, if you have to write a convoluted sentence like "suicide terrorism refers to the use of suicide bombings" then your actual topic is suicide bombing, which is a real subject, as opposite to suicide terrorism, which is just a POV framing and redirect to suicide attack. There are good reasons for that, not least MOS:TERRORISM, i.e. Nelson Mandela was previously considered a terrorist, yada yada, etc. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:00, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see any connection between the disputed labeling of figures and the current topic. Suicide bombings, such as the Passover massacre and the Dolphinarium discotheque massacre, that target civilians to achieve political goals, are universally recognized as the epitome of terrorism—except perhaps by the perpetrators themselves. Are you suggesting that these events might one day not be considered terrorism? If this point isn't clear, I am afraid, continuing this discussion may be futile. Terrorism is a fact in our world; not every mention of it is a matter of POV framing. UnspokenPassion (talk) 20:18, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Phrases like "epitome of terrorism" and "terrorism is a fact" are not encyclopedic. The concept of "terrorism" is highly contingent on framing. Individual examples are not important. The issue here is the POV framing of an entire topic, despite it encompassing non-applicable examples. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:41, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The article looks very professional and impressive. The issue of the "newish editor" keeps being raised, but there are rules, and as it stands, it seems that they have not violated them. You haven't raised a substantive argument related to the content. Eladkarmel (talk) 18:40, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding "there are rules, and as it stands, it seems that they have not violated them". They have very likely violated the WP:SOCK rule. Does this matter in the topic area? Apparently not. Sean.hoyland (talk) 04:13, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Support: This page was unfortunately created with a title that is POV and both lacking in precision and consistency with adjacent topics and itself. As noted by the nom, suicide bombings and suicide attacks are the normal terms for this and adjacent topics, while all of the language on the page refers to bombings. The current title creates the rather hamfisted situation of the first sentence having to clarify that the subject is actually suicide bombing, since the title doesn't elucidate this. The natural, recognisable, precise and usefully descriptive language for the topic is "suicide bombings", as stated in the first sentence. Iskandar323 (talk) 21:07, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support per NPOV and MOS:TERRORISM as an improvement, but really, shouldn't we be talking merge? Suicide attack and Palestinian political violence are notable topics; are Suicide bombing, Palestinian suicide attack, or Palestinian suicide bombing, notable sub-topics? Does it matter if a suicide attack is a bombing or something else? Does it matter if it's Palestinian or someone else? Is there a size problem or other reason to spin off bombings from other attacks, Palestinians from other attackers, or both sub-categories, Palestinian and bombings? I don't think there are enough RS specifically about Palestinian suicide bombings, or suicide bombings in general, to justify a stand-alone. So I'm at "should this article exist?" Levivich (talk) 22:15, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A person who was not advancing a political agenda would ask themselves this question before creating this article: "Is there something distinctive about suicide bombings carried out by Palestinians?" There is a clear answer to that question, and it points to what should be done with this article. Of course that won't happen. So it goes, so it goes.Dan Murphy (talk) 22:23, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I also support this alternative title. It's a bit of a toss-up depending on how the article is subsequently developed – kept specific to bombing or broadened to attacks in general, although I don't know how a non-bomb attack can be a suicide attack unless it's a kamikaze run in a plane. Isn't the key the guarantee of death? Iskandar323 (talk) 14:45, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The term terrorism is entirely appropriate, neutral, and encyclopedic when referring to suicide bombings that primarily target civilians, as in this case. I don't see any NPOV issue here. Galamore (talk) 06:18, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Quelle suprise ... It's almost as if most of our article titles consistently prefer accurate, neutral and meaningfully descriptive language that identifies the topic, instead of POV framing. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:53, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Some here mention MOS:TERRORIST, but if you read it closely, it does not prohibit usage of terrorism if it's "widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject". Looking at this article I can see that this is exactly the case here and the reliable sources presented reflect that. Eladkarmel (talk) 06:49, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There can be types of attacks that aren't bombings though. Are shootings and stabbings perpetrated for the same cause completely different? No. PARAKANYAA (talk) 09:01, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Many of the support votes seem, frankly, to call for whitewashing. Suicide bombings against civilian populations are indeed a form of terrorism, as supported by authoritative scholarly sources. There are hundreds of mentions of "Palestinian suicide terrorism" on Google Scholar (548, to be precise) and 8,280 more that feature "suicide terrorism" alongside Palestine/Palestinians, making the current name both common and appropriate for the topic. ABHammad (talk) 08:27, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is not the most WP:COMMONNAME by your metric. There are over a thousand mentions of "Palestinian suicide bombings", 1,190, more than twice of your value. There are 19,500 more that feature "suicide bombings" alongside Palestine/Palestinians, more than twice of your value. Plus another 14,500 more that feature "suicide attacks" alongside Palestine/Palestinians, and 592 for "Palestinian suicide attacks". So clearly "terrorism" is #3 here in terms of commonness. starship.paint (RUN)14:01, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support move away from current name: attacks > bombings > terrorism. Per Dimadick the parent article is suicide attacks, and per Iskandar, the current title is confusing and needs to be clarified, and per MOS:TERRORISM, we should avoid the term terrorism when possible. starship.paint (RUN)10:09, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've also proven above that “terrorism” isn’t the WP:COMMONNAME, in fact “bombing” has twice the results in sources (per my reply to ABHammad) and infinitely more results in Wikipedia titles (per my reply to Galamore) starship.paint (RUN)15:55, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose the suggested move for the following reasons. First, according to MOS:TERRORISM, the term 'terrorism' can be used when it is common in literature. The article's first citation, along with the Google Scholar results mentioned above, confirms that this usage in this context is not only supported, but prevalent by reputable academic sources. Second, suicide bombings targeting civilians are widely recognized as acts of terrorism (e.g., the 9/11 attacks, which are described as terrorism). Therefore, there does not appear to be a point-of-view issue here. PeleYoetz (talk) 10:34, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's also because WP:NCE demands neutral descriptions of events. "Terrorism" isn't actually a description of an event or act at all, but just a POV characterisation. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:03, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm suggesting the that the label is normally inappropriate for all but the broadest concept pieces where "terrorism" is the only conceivable name for the topic. Unless the first sentence goes "X is the carrying out of acts of terror by Y", the topic isn't terrorism, but something more specific. Here the subject is extremely specific to A) Palestinian nationalism and B) suicide bombings, as the first line explains, and so should be titled as such. The broader concept here is meanwhile Palestinian political violence. Per MOS:TERRORISM, labels such as terrorism should generally only by applied in the body, and with attribution, not liberally and loosely. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:45, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose (creator). I chose the title 'Palestinian suicide terrorism' after reviewing numerous articles and considering several options. I selected this title because, alongside its prominence in academic literature, it best reflects the nature and intent of these acts. In the context of 1990s Israel-Palestine and the Second Intifada (2000–2005), suicide bombings were not merely isolated violent incidents but strategic acts of terror aimed at instilling fear—specifically among the Israeli civilian population—and achieving political objectives, such as undermining the Oslo Accords, damaging the PLO's stature, and later, weakening Israel's economy, creating a balance of fear, and promoting emigration.
While the term 'Palestinian suicide bombings' is also prevalent in sources, it describes only the action itself, which is just one part of what this article covers. The article delves into broader aspects of terrorism in this context, including the religious and nationalistic justifications among Palestinian groups (initially Islamist, later also secular), the recruitment process, influences, planning, and the glorification of perpetrators—topics that extend beyond the bombings alone. I urge serious editors to engage with the matter intellectually, prioritizing the sources over personal opinions. UnspokenPassion (talk) 12:34, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Naming the article "bombings" or "attacks" (more prevalent in reliable sources as I have proven above in my reply to ABHammad) does not prevent us from discussing either the nature and intent of these acts or the religious and nationalistic justifications among Palestinian groups (initially Islamist, later also secular), the recruitment process, influences, planning, and the glorification of perpetrators. It seems that all of these are a red herring with regard to the article title. starship.paint (RUN)14:09, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Question - it would be a POVTITLE if there's a controversy about whether the characterization as terrorism is accurate. Is that the case? I'm not aware of any dissenting view. (In any case though, I hesitate to oppose because I think Palestinian suicide bombings is also a suitable name. An argument that one name is accurate isn't an argument for preferring it over another accurate name. I'd only oppose "attacks" as it's vague, conveying the least information.) — xDanielxT/C\R14:44, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@XDanielx, whether Palestinian attacks are justified in a jus ad bellum sense is controversial: Israel says all Palestinian attacks are terrorism, while some scholars argue for Palestinian right of armed resistance. (Of course, everyone agrees that attacks against civilians are always wrong, regardless of which side perpetrates it). VR(Please ping on reply)21:41, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Right, but this article seems to be largely about attacks on civilian targets, which I think everyone agrees is terrorism. As that article says Scholars who support a Palestinian right to resist Israeli occupation, nevertheless agree that this does not in any way justify killing or wounding civilians. If there are a few bits of content about attacks on military targets, those bits could be removed as an alternative to renaming. (I'm also 100% fine with renaming though, I just think it comes down to other considerations.) — xDanielxT/C\R03:18, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@XDanielx:, from what I understand the designation of terrorism does not change based on whether military citizens are killed or not. Can you cite the legal definition of terrorism in either Israel or the US? You will find it has little do with whether the target is civilian or military. Israel, for example, regards Palestinian attacks on its soldiers as terrorism.VR(Please ping on reply)04:05, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. Suicide terrorism is such a weird phrasing. Did they sit down in a town square and kill themselves in a ritual suicide to subject onlookers to terror? The only justification is getting the buzzword of "terrorism" into the title, which is a violation of WP:NPOV and WP:TERRORISM.
Comment When it comes to articles where Israel is the perpetrator all these RFC/RM aim to paint Israel in the worst possible light - Gaza Genocide, Gaza Strip Famine, change Palestinian genocide accusation to Palestinian genocide and then for the inverse, they try to tone it down as much as possible ie try change Israel-Hamas war to Israel Gaza War, change this from Palestinian suicide terrorism to Palestinian suicide bombings, remove every mention of terrorism against Israel that's possible to remove. I can't be the only person who sees this. It's a flagrant disregard of WP:NPOV. The intent of MOS:TERRORIST has been manipulated to the nth degree in order to accommodate this. The way it's being used vis a vis Israel is to prevent anything being labeled as an act of terrorism. MaskedSinger (talk) 17:27, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is the point of MOS:TERRORISM. And it cuts both ways. Despite Israel being an almost perpetual perpetrator of state terrorism, for example, with many of its actions collectively amounting to terrorism, we don't label subsections of its actions as "terrorism". Iskandar323 (talk) 19:14, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia doesn't operate on a tit-for-tat policy. Every article needs to adhere to the principles of Wikipedia. There are a number of comments here detailing why the current title is violating WP:NPOV and MOS:TERRORIST.
@CoolAndUniqueUsername I wasn't saying it's tit for tat, I was saying there's a wholesale rewriting of Wikipedia where just about every article here where Israel/Israelis is the victim is downplayed and every article where Israel/Israelis are the perpetrators is amped up.
Go to Manchester Arena bombing and it says Islamic terrorist suicide bombing in the first sentence.
There's a detailed article here about Islamic terrorism in Europe with many examples but all the acts of terrorism against Israel aren't defined here as such so if you want to look up about terrorism in Israel there's next to nothing compared to what it should be....
It's impossible to answer your question about the spirit being violated without being punished for making aspersions, etc
And what's happening here is a microcosm of what's happening elsewhere. I'm not rah-rah Israel - Israel can't do no wrong, Israel is blameless, Israel didn't commit any atrocities, etc
But that's not what's going on here. Since October 7, the independence and neutrality of Wikipedia has been eroded away. RFCS and RMS have been pushed though, Wikipedia rules for these articles are applied differently here than they are elsewhere.
Sure, all this isn't good for Israel's rep, but the real loser is Wikipedia.
Palestinian nationalist political violence isn't the same thing as jihadist terrorism, so naturally the two don't use the same language, in sources or reflected here. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:43, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Some Palestinian nationalist political violence is terrorism, and some Palestinian political violence is not terrorism. This is not a “A = B” situation. starship.paint (RUN)14:30, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with this but this isn't what's happening at Wikipedia.
Iskandar succinctly communicated in a sentence what would have taken me paragraphs to get across.
Specific to the question of this article's title, you'll note that none of the examples you provided have terrorism in the title. That's exactly the point of MOS:TERRORIST and why some editors here are saying that the current title is in violation. CoolAndUniqueUsername (talk) 15:20, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Manchester Arena Bombing wasn't done by Palestinians. It doesn't have the word terrorist in the title. Same for September 11 attacks, it doesn't have the word terrorist in the title.
@StarkReport Absolutely. 100% it was an act of terrorism. I consider it as such. No argument from me. But this is my point - Wikipedia should be balanced and neutral and independent. It shouldn't take sides - it should reflect both sides in a factual way. This isn't whats happening here. I will call out Israel when it does something wrong, but the wrong that Israel does has been completely blown out of proportion and exaggerated here, while at the same time downplaying what Hamas did. And there's many reasons for this such as more anti Israel editors than pro and more anti israel sources than pro. But this doesn't make it right. MaskedSinger (talk) 14:18, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I suspect WP:NPOV is not what you think it is, MaskedSinger. NPOV means reporting fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without editorial bias, what reliable sources say. We are not balanced. We do not report that there is a 50% chance that life arose from evolution, 50% chance that it was creationism. We do not report that there is a 50% chance that the Holocaust was genocide, and 50% chance that it was not genocide. We follow, proportionately, what reliable sources say. If they are 99% with one viewpoint, that is what we will follow. starship.paint (RUN)10:15, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And what if the sources don't reflect reality? What if the deck is stacked as to what is and isn't a reliable source? You say NPOV means as far as possible without editorial bias, I content that editorial bias exists. The NPOV policy also says that the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus. I contend that it's been flouted by editor consensus. MaskedSinger (talk) 10:45, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@CoolAndUniqueUsername We're talking about 2 different things here. I didn't vote support or oppose. I just commented and my comment was that there's a trend to downplay acts against Israel and amp up what Israel does. ie that everything Israel does is a massacre and next to no terrorist acts can be committed against it. That's all. MaskedSinger (talk) 14:21, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support - this article covers things that are defitionally not terrorism. It says so itself, it includes attacks on military targets. The title here is inaccurate and non-neutral, and none of the opposers has addressed that at all. nableezy - 18:32, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support renaming but I prefer the "Palestinian suicide attacks" option. The term "suicide attacks" is broader than "suicide bombings" so that's the logical choice. Current title fails WP:NPOV and WP:TERRORISM and it's not the WP:COMMONNAME, as other editors have already mentioned. Renaming it to "suicide bombings" would also be an improvement, but that's my second choice. - Ïvana (talk) 22:23, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose renaming The term 'terrorism' is well established in international law and discourse to describe the acts discussed in this article. The usage of 'terrorism' for this article here is supported by the references, and therefore is not a violation of MOS:TERRORISM. It is unclear to me why there are calls to remove the term from this article while its usage in the above mentioned articles like Jewish extremist terrorism, Islamic terrorism, and, I will add, Israel and state-sponsored terrorism is accepted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by O.maximov (talk • contribs) 14:06, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Support renaming, but to the "attacks" alternative. The conceptual difficulty is that the current state of the article includes suicide attacks that are terrorism and suicide attacks that are not terrorism. The best way to address from an organizational standpoint is to rename the article with the broader title of "Palestinian suicide attacks". The alternative would be to split the pages, which is not wise from an organizational standpoint. JArthur1984 (talk) 15:00, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support: Well, simply put, 'suicide terrorism' in this particular article inaccurately frames the subject. As noted above, "suicide bombings" or "suicide attacks" are more precise and better reflect the content of the article, making them more relevant titles. StarkReport (talk) 07:52, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support renaming to "suicide attacks", which is preferable to both "suicide bombings" (focuses on the means and is too narrow) and "suicide terrorism" (focuses on the civilian targets and is too narrow, and on the effects pursued - creating fear - and is less NPOV). Gitz (talk) (contribs) 17:04, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support based on arguments from StarkReport, starship.paint, and Selfstudier. Looking at articles of terrorist attacks done by Islamists as well as Zionists, it's clear that the title uses the word "bombing", "massacre" (for specific cases), or "attacks". This title is a violation of WP:NPOV, WP:COMMONNAME, and WP:TERRORISM. So I support both "Suicide attacks" and "Suicide bombings." Lf8u2 (talk) 23:47, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.