Talk:Circuit topology (electrical)

Circuit topology (electrical) has been listed as one of the Engineering and technology good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
March 20, 2012	Good article nominee	Listed

A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on September 17, 2008.

The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that Twin-T topology can be used as a substitute for bridge topology in many electronic circuits when grounding is an issue?

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Question

Is there a better way to present the topology diagrams. A lot of whitespace is present on my computer. Maybe make them smaller, put them in {{multiple image}} templates or a gallary. It would greatly improve the appearance of the article in my opinion. AIRcorn (talk) 02:22, 5 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I assume you are talking about the first part of the article, not the large section on graph theory that I recently added. The fundamental problem is that there is more diagram than text. To keep the text with the diagram to which it relates will inevitably result in whitespace. By all means try and improve, but any kind of gallery is going to need the text to be changed to refer to the figure numbers. This in turn will force the reader to scroll up or down to find them, in my opinion not really an improvement. Spinning Spark 10:26, 5 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Topology (electrical circuits)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Czarkoff (talk · contribs) 09:37, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Status

This section is supposed to be edited only by reviewer(s). Please comment in #Discussion section below.

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.	~~The article is in fact divided into two disconnected parts with the second one starting from the Graph theory section. The flow should be fixed.~~ Some introduction on how the figures are read should be either present or (preferably) linked to. Eg., the phrase "The Π-section is identical topology to the Δ topology" may is not all that evident for an unprepared reader. Done ~~The article overly relies on illustrations, which might be a problem for readers with accessibility problems. The prose should not suffer if the illustrations are removed altogether.~~ In section Y and Δ topologies the sentence "For instance, for the network of figure 1.6, consisting of a Y network connected in parallel with a Δ network" seems to be incomplete. Done In Bridge T and Twin-T topologies there is a reference to another Wikipedia article. The text of the section should explain the situation without referring to another Wikipedia article, as the target may get deleted, changed or split, so that the information won't be accessible over link. In section Nullity and rank all members of equations should be explicitly labeled. Eg., in the first equation only N and s are properly labeled.
	1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.
2. Verifiable with no original research:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).
	2c. it contains no original research.
3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.	Some of images have Figure N in their captions, some don't. This sort of inconsistency is annoying. Furthermore, the images that aren't numbered this way are referred to according to their position relative to the text, which is a bad habit. Done In the Simple filter topologies the illustration mentions "balanced" and "unbalanced" forms, which are not discussed in text at that point. Done
	7. Overall assessment.	Though in my opinion some issues remain, they are out of scope of WP:GACR

Discussion

Please leave your comments here. I didn't yet check some aspects of prose, and some other criteria, so more issues are expected to be found. That said, the article is evidently the result of great work and I'm pretty sure it will eventually get the GA status. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 09:59, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It was always intended to number the diagrams of the first part, as is obvious from the number range used in the second part. Not doing so was just an oversight, now corrected.
I am not sure how to address your comments on flow. The two parts of the article are not unconnected - the connection is explained clearly in the lede. The thinking behind this is that far more readers are likely to be familiar with circuit diagrams than they are with graph theory. To most electronic engineers topology means a particular class of circuits. The first part of the article, therefore, is a survey of most of the basic topologies represented in circuit diagram form. Graph theory, on the other hand, is more than just a means of graphically representing a class of circuits; it is a mathematical language which can be used to analyse networks. While the second part is far more interesting imo, I recognise that not all readers will want to delve this deeply into the subject and have consequently kept it separate.
I have added a brief explanantion of the use of greek letters early in the article. Spinning Spark 11:35, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It seems I failed to explain my point: "unconnected" here means only the text flow, from the perspective of topic they both clearly belong here. The idea is that the text should read consequently without full stop effect between the sections. When I reach the "Graph theory" section, I get the impression that I start reading another article. I think this requires just some minor changes to the first couple of sentences in "Graph theory". — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 15:52, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not all articles can be written as a consecutive sequence. A historical article lends itself to this, as does a mathematical proof, but it really does not fit the material of this article and any atttempt to make it comply will probably result in some very clunky phrasing. The lede already explains where graph theory fits into topology, as does the opening paragraph of the "Graph theory" section. I am not sure what more you want. I would also respectfully point out that "flow" is not one of the GA criteria, this is more like something I would expect at the FA level. Spinning Spark 16:16, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I see your point. I won't fail the nomination on this issue anyway, though I'll think over the way it could be addressed.

1a2 complaint is not about the Greek letters, but about the diagrams. Eg. it is not evident that П-section is identical topology to the Δ topology as there is no prior explanation of the meaning of diagram's elements. As I get it, these sections are identical because the blocks are connected similarly, but I see no text I can conclude this from. I think the article should link to another article explaining the diagrams and meaning of their elements (filled dots, empty dots, block and lines) or at least briefly explain them inline. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 09:56, 15 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have added some further explanation in the lede and a short introductory section on circuit diagrams. Spinning Spark 13:01, 15 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

1a3 compliant: the article should probably feature the plain text description of illustrated sections. That would probably solve the 1a2 issue BTW. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 09:56, 15 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am going to decline to provide text descriptions of all the diagrams. This is really not practical, it would make the article virtually unreadable, and there would bound to be numerous ambiguities that are easily resolved by diagrams but near impossible to resolve in plain text. It is perfectly possible to provide an unambiguous description of a network without using diagrams; the usual approach is through a set of system equations. Matrix notation and logic symbols are also possible. However, the early part of the article is meant to present the range of simple, basic topologies to the general reader without getting into difficult mathematics or concepts. That is reserved for the graph theory section, and even there is kept to a minimum. Spinning Spark 13:01, 15 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

After some thinking I believe I should recall this point as descriptions of diagrams are useless without diagrams anyway. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 14:35, 15 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

1a4 reworded Spinning Spark 16:11, 15 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

1a5. This kind of reference is allowable. WP:SELFREF has References that exist in a way that assumes the reader is using an encyclopedia, without reference to the specific encyclopedia (Wikipedia) or the manner of access (online), are acceptable. The argument that the target article might get changed or deleted is a non-argument - this applies equally to any wikilink, not just self-references. The target article is not going to be deleted, and if it were changed or renamed it is the responsibility of the renaming editor to check "what links here" and make the necessary corrections (it will also be picked up by a bot in the event of human failure). This is equivalent to "see also", a commonly used way of introducing such links used throughout WP, but not quite workable in this case. There is no need in this article to go into details of the connection, it is a distraction, saying that there is a connection is enough and those interested can find the details in the linked article. Spinning Spark 16:32, 15 March 2012 (UTC) to 16:40, 15 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

OK. Still I'm not sure that this reference is needed at all. You could as well put {{See also}} hatnote to this section an just state that these are derived from bridge topology. For now this paragraph boils down to "there is more stuff discussed elsewhere", which IMHO just don't need that much space. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 17:19, 15 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What is the problem with providing a link to other information the reader might find useful ad explaining what they will find there? "See also" by itself gives no explanation, "see also" with an explanation will take up more screen space since it adds whitespace.

1a6 The other terms have already been defined earlier in the article. Spinning Spark 16:40, 15 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, though I would do it again here as I'm not really sure that it is evident that in this section the meanings are retained. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 17:19, 15 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There is no reason the reader should believe they have changed. In general we define/explain/link things on first occurence and do not usually repeat.Spinning Spark 19:35, 15 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

6b2 I have added a suitable wikilink to the image caption. It is not really necessary for an understanding of this article to go into the details here. As far as topology is concerned "balanced" and "unbalanced" are little more than name labels used to distinguish two sets of topologies. Spinning Spark 17:04, 15 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, it seems that the sections 2-9 should be subsections of 1. Or am I missing something? — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 17:19, 15 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see any especial benefit to doing that. What would you call section 1? Is there anything to write under it other than the sub-sections? If not, it would be superfluous. Spinning Spark 19:35, 15 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hello all, just here because there was a call for Wikipedians who are knowledgeable on the subject. I read over it and could see no blatent factual errors. Will have a thoughtful read later today to see of there is anything I missed in there at allParadoxical 0^2 (talk) 02:55, 18 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for that! — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 09:50, 20 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for reviewing and all yuour comments. Spinning Spark 11:35, 20 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Power electronics, inverter (electrical) & variable-frequency drive topologies?

Noting recent GA upgrade of this article as well as of variable-frequency drive article, I suggest need to consider extension of Topology (electrical circuits) article to include some sort of treatment of power electronics topologies generally and inverter (electrical) and variable-frequency drive topologies in particular.Cblambert (talk) 20:20, 26 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Tetrahedral Topology

Some of the topologies shown cry out to be seen as tetrahedral rather the planar. For example, Figures 1.6 and 1.8.

I have searched using Google but not with the aid of a skilled librarian, and could not find an association of bridge networks with a tetrahedron. It is difficult for me to believe that no association has been noticed before mine.

I am now getting long in tooth and not really up with how to prepare an article for Wikipedia. I hope what I report will be interesting enough for someone to follow up. I am willing to be helpful. I will send a PowerPoint presentation I presented to a small group if someone shows interest.

The classic Wheatstone bridge diagram *Figure 1.8) has a tetrahedral topology. The battery and galvanometer are on a pair of edges that do not touch directly. Resistors along the remaining four edges of the tetrahedron connect them. Balanced bridges of this nature are used as hybrid circuits so that a potential introduced in a (batter) arm does not produce a current in the indirectly connected (galvanometer) arm.

The diagram (Figure 1.6) also is the projection of a tetrahedron. It is possible to balance three bridges in this configuration. They are balanced if the wye and its equivalent delta are connected as in the diagram. This means that three hybrid connections can be made from one tetrahedral circuit. That is, an emf introduced in one (battery) arm, will not produce a current in the opposite (galvanometer) arm. I have seen that used in some telephone circuits to isolate two separate signals.

I would appreciate a response whether positive or negative. Is there a publication that has noted this topological property before? PEBill (talk) 08:09, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A bridge is indeed a tetrahedron, but I am not aware of any significance in the congruence of a topology to any 3D figure. What is significant is whether or not the topology will map on to a plane. I think it is true that any closed (genus 0) polyhedron will map on to a sphere (it is certainly true for convex polyhedra like the tetrahedron) and will therefore also map on to a plane. The dual of such topologies is guaranteed to exist, but beyond that I don't think it has any significance for topology. Spinning Spark 20:48, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

U.R.L.s ?

Hi, Spinning Spark, What objection do you have against providing links (u.r.l.s) to articles ? I found links to MacMahan's articles of 1891 and 1892, but you deleted them. I read those articles and I thought that others might also like to read them, but apparently you don't want other people to access them. Why? What's the problem? VexorAbVikipædia (talk) 16:21, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

But the links you provided are not to places where the articles can be read. I thought I explained that adequately in my edit summary "Links to gbooks that don't give preview are useless, and in the case of The Electrician, the doi links to a full access source." SpinningSpark 19:26, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]