Talk:Yugoslavia men's national basketball team

Yugoslavia and Serbia-Montenegro are not the same thing

Please, don't mix Serbian national basketball team and national team of Serbia-Montenegro with Yugoslavian.
Even FIBA recognises things that Badinteur's Committee concluded 17 years ago [1].
According to this, I'll remove the data about the Serbo-Montenegrin and Serbian medals after the dissolution of Yugoslavia. Kubura (talk) 06:56, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Notable people section

The section which lists the most significant players in the Yugoslavia national basketball team history along with their biggest achievements was deleted by the user User:No such user as irrelevant and unsourced. This section I believe is very useful from encyclopedic point of view as all these players have played the biggest role in the team's achievements. Furthermore all this info is sourced in the wikipedia pages of each one of the player listed and in other wikipedia championship, cups, awards etc. pages. It doesn't need to be sourced twice for every single item, there are direct links to all those pages. Similar sections can be found in other wikipedia sports team pages as well. The section can be further expanded with more persons like coaches, managers, etc.Clicklander (talk) 18:00, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Clicklander: See Wikipedia:Too much detail. Wikipedia articles (like any text in any written media) are supposed to stay focused on their subject, which is here the national team and its achievements. Notable players would be mentioned in the prose of the articles, and their individual career achievements are already covered in articles about them. Readers certainly don't expect barely relevant information, and you just added 12.5 kB of it. Why would the reader of this article want to know that Dražen Petrović was 2× FIBA Saporta Cup Finals Top Scorer?! There's place for every piece of information, and this article is not supposed to be about everything, a.
I don't find "similar sections" in other sport team pages as well, certainly not in that level of detail. France national basketball team, Russia national basketball team, ... The one I did find, Germany national football team#Players, has clear focus on what those players have done for the national team, not in their club careers.
I could go on further, for example, what makes these particular players more notable than others? Without clearly defined criteria, this is potentially endless list (and is oversized even now). No such user (talk) 15:53, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

No such user: The section "notable people" or "notable players" for team articles is not my own invention. As I said you can find it in many other articles as well. In fact what I did here was to copy the section I found in the article Serbia national basketball team and deleted and added some players in order the section to correspond to the Yugoslavian basketball team article. A basketball team is mainly a group of players and those players that make significant difference with their performance in the team need to be mentioned explicitly in an article like this, especially if we are talking about legends for the European and world basketball like Petrović, Dalipagić, Korać, Divac, Kukoč etc. Regarding their individual achievements, here you have a point. I agree not every single achievement needs to be listed in an article like this since there are other specific player articles for this info as you said. However, not every single career milestone achievement in included in this section, only the most important ones are summarized so that the reader has an indication for the size of the legend behind each one of those players. And these achievements are exactly what make these players more notable than others. Yes you could stick only to the achievements within the national team but those are already mentioned above in the individual awards section, and of course what makes a player notable is not only his performance playing for his national team but his overall career as a player. If we were talking about a very big article I could agree to remove the lists of the achievements in order not to make it too long and focus on other parts, but for a relatively small article like this, is it really a problem for the reader to get some additional short info for those notable players? Clicklander (talk) 14:09, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

Yugoslavia ≠ Serbia and Montenegro

@Pelmeen10: @Tvx1: We have policy called WP:BRD, and not one called WP:BRRRRRRRR: after the first revert to stable version, you were supposed to came here and discuss. You know quite well that your FIBA card is hotly contested. Just because the pre-1992 and post-1992 teams were both called "Yugoslavian" does not mean those were the same team, and therefore they constitute a different topic. Our articles are about topics, not about titles. As I said in the edit summary, the claim that a national team does not represent a country is preposterous.

As a matter of fact, FR Yugoslavia was thus named in a political attempt to take over all the heritage and credits of the former country. The claim was ultimately rejected by Badinter Commission, whose finding #10 was that that the FRY (Serbia and Montenegro) could not legally be considered a continuation of the former SFRY, but it was a new state, and indeed, FRY had to eventually reapply for UN membership. Now you seem to be promulgating that long-dead and buried concept. For the Nth time: we don't give a fuck about FIBA's pdf that you're waving with. SFR Yugoslavia ceased to exist in 1992, all its institutions ceased to exist in 1992, including all national teams. This is the article about its national basketball team (hint: adjective wikt:national is derived from nation, which must exist first to have a team), whic could not have won any medals in 2002. Those medals were won by Serbia and Montenegro national basketball team. No such user (talk) 21:19, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Actually, we don't give a damn about the political situation and the sovereign states. We care about sportive results and at wikipedia we list sportive facts as they are created by the sports governing body. You do realize that the basketball team this articles deals with was actually founded in 1936, don't you? You do realize that this article isn't called "SFR Yugoslavia in international basket", don't you? This article was never intended to only list achievements of SFR Yugoslavia in international basket. This articles deals with one basketball team that existed from 1936 until 2003 and to which the FIBA awarded results to continuously until, yes, 2003. We list sportive facts as they are created by the sports governing body. This article made abadundantly clear that this team actually represented three different actual sovereign countries throughout its history: Kingdom of Yugoslavia, SFR Yugoslavia and FR Yugoslavia.Tvx1 22:17, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Go read the fucking definition of National sports team. It represents a nation, so we do give fucking damn about political situation and sovereign states (aka nations). Who on Earth does a country's national team represents? No country <=> no national team. This article has always intended to list achievements of SFR Yugoslavia in international basket until two of you smartasses appeared with novel brilliant ideas. SFR Yugoslavia was basically the same country as Kingdom of Yugoslavia for all intents and purposes. FR Yugoslavia was not, it was a new country with 3x smaller territory and population, as confirmed by multiple verdicts of international organizations, therefore it was represented by a different national team. No such user (talk) 22:26, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, but the kingdom was not the same country by any purpose. It was a different constitutional form of state, it had a different political regime and the territory it controlled was not identical to the SFR territory at all. Regardless, the governing body of this sport recognized one continuous team from 1936 until 2003 and we reflect those facts supported by reliable sources. The fact that this team represented a different nation after 1992 until its demise is actually carefully explained in the article. Your theory on why it was a separate national team is purely your own synthesis. The team was actually governed by the same national governing body throughout its entire history which even kept operating in the same building.Tvx1 22:53, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Kingdom aside, FR Yugoslavia and SFR Yugoslavia were the same how? Approximately like Congo and Congo. As far as I know, the governing body of Russian Basketball Federation was substantially the same as Soviet Union Basketball Federation and kept operating in the same building, yet we don't consider Soviet Union national basketball team and Russia national basketball team one and the same. This article is not about governing body, but about a team that represented a sovereign country, like every national team does. Even if we accept your twisted logic, why did you not list achievements of national teams of Serbia and Montenegro and Serbia under the same article, because they were too "the same governing body" as it was until 2003, operating in the same building. Having the same name does not a same team make. Names and attributes must be accommodated to the essence of things, and not the essence to the names, since things come first and names afterwards. (Galileo). No such user (talk) 09:33, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Even the Basketball Federation of Serbia does not claim a formal continuity: [2] A new beginning of a new national team and a new country would start at the European Championship in Athens, in 1995. Your theory that it was the same national team just on the basis of haveing the same name is purely your own synthesis. No such user (talk) 10:19, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

No it isn’t. My claims are not based on a theory, but on how the results are actually credited by the governing body of the sport.Tvx1 13:41, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

To be more precise, they are credited by the badly written automatic database query at the sport's governing body website. The results of which you know very well has been hotly contested as absurd and contradicting other results previously published by the same body. No such user (talk) 15:28, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Honestly, the real absurd thing is that some random wikipedian is right and the sport's governing body is wrong. You have no evidence supporting your claims.Tvx1 22:52, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

I have an Occam's razor for you, though: how come that a single FIBA document, apparently created by an incompetent person, contradicts findings of the Badinter Commission as adopted by the European Union and United Nations, own claims of Serbian Basketball Federation, ten-year history of this article in which nobody has found it imaginable to merge histories of SFR Yugoslavia and FR Yugoslavia but divorce the latter from Serbia and Montenegro, contradicting the fact that FR Yugoslavia redirects to Serbia and Montenegro, and an inconvenient contradiction in terms that a single "national team" could have served two distinct nations? Why such a zeal to "fix" things that you apparently don't have a fucking clue about? Why would independent sources such as [3] make it up if it's so logical as you claim? I'm of a firm opinion editors here are allowed to have brains and judgement that allow them to write sensible articles that serve our readers with useful reference information, not to mindlessly repeat misinformation and incompetence. And I shall say it again, and back it up with my real-life credentials if necessary: whoever on FIBA created and approved that document is a clueless idiot. No such user (talk) 22:06, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

@No such user: Do you read the title of this article to be SFR Yugoslavia national team? I do not, so this article is not really about 1 nation, as like Yugoslavia is not. As a Wikipedia editors, all we can do, is follow the most reliable sources, in this case FIBA. If you think they are mistaken, write them a letter, and maybe share their answer here. By calling FIBA incompetent, you have no ground to stand on. --Pelmeen10 (talk) 21:50, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

What happend here is that some world institutions did considered FR Yugoslavia to be the only sucessor of old big Yugoslavia in 1992 (FIFA and UEFA for instance) while some didnt. FIBA didnt, now, just because some FIBA website editor mixed up SFR Yugoslavia with FR Yugoslavia and separated FR Yugoslavia from "Serbia and Montenegro" (which ae one same country with just a name change) doesnt mean we have to be as ignorant as the FIBA website editor is. That person who edited the FIBA website list just listed clearly by name ("Oh, Yugoslavia is Yugoslavia... Oh here is some Serbia and Montemegro... different name different team fo sure, I´ll put it that way!"). So there is clearly a mistake there. It is CLEARLY not about wanting to atribute no one more titles (certainly not POV here from no one by explaining this) but rather a mistake we want to fix. FkpCascais (talk) 22:50, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

So, the title here of this section should be: "Yugoslavia ≠ Serbia and Montenegro, but FR Yugoslavia yes it is" FkpCascais (talk) 22:52, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Pelmeen10 – yes I do. Conventionally, "Yugoslavia" is taken to mean primarily the big country that existed between 1918 and 1992, and our article Yugoslavia is devoted to that country, describing FR Yugoslavia only in a post-mortem, and linking to it in the hatnote. While their national teams bore the same name, they did not represent the same nation, and the latter was ultimately renamed to Serbia and Montenegro.
As for the suggestion of writing an e-mail to FIBA, please see this post (not by myself) to get an idea where that would lead. I'm just a volunteer here, and both my life and my nerves are too short to deal with fools. But I think that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and the claim that one team represented Yugoslavia until 2003, and another Serbia and Montenegro between 2003 and 2006, certainly ranks as extraordinary, to be based on a single source containing table-based statistics with no supplementary explanation, no matter if it carries a "sacred" FIBA stamp. No such user (talk) 13:26, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

No-one is claiming that one team represented one Yugoslavia until 2003. In fact the article clear states that this team represented THREE different nations at different points in their history. But from a sportive point of view, their was one continuous team with all results credited to them by the sport's governing body. And our article is not devoted to a country, but to a sport's team registered with a governing body for that sport. The designation "Yugoslavia" did not cease to exist in 1992. It is up to us to accurately reflect the official sources and not to claim they made a mistake.Tvx1 20:52, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Once again go and read the definition of National sports team. It represents a nation, do you understand a NATION. And that table from "the sport's governing body" is not valid. That FIBA profiles only follow the name of the country, per that table Zaire/DR Congo or Formosa/Taiwan/Taipei or FR Yugoslavia/Serbia and Montenegro were different countries and that is not CORRECT. Should we then have three articles for the Chinese Taipei men's national basketball team???--Bozalegenda (talk) 21:02, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Yes I understand what a nation is. In fact I have stated time and time again, that this sports team actually represented THREE of them nations at different points throughout its history. Whereas I fully understand what a nation is, you don't know what a sports team is. This is evidenced in your claim of the FIBA's tables as clearly cannot understand that they do no list nations but in fact national sports teams that were registered with them. Following your reasoning, I guess we should also create a new article for the current Serbia basketball team, because after all they can play against Kosovo now.Tvx1 21:11, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

And I have stated, time and again, that your claim that this national team actually represented THREE of them nations at different points throughout its history is so preposterous that it's not even wrong.
As for the attempt to find any reason in FIBA's tables, how do you explain the fact that they separate achievements of FR Yugoslavia and Serbia and Montenegro, whose national federation and basketball team certainly were the one and the same, and the country hasn't changed the territory for an inch? No such user (talk) 12:16, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

Inheritance of SFR Yugoslavia results

In this article in section New national teams it is stated that None of these teams is an inheritor of the results the SFR Yugoslavia national basketball team had accomplished. I think that this sentence should be removed from the article because there's no official statement from the respective international sports governing body, i.e. FIBA. IT.EngineerSRB (talk) 09:07, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Disagree. The absence of a claim of inheritence is exactly why it is there and should remain. Moreover it is very easy to verify who the FIBA credits these achievements to and it isn’t any of the new teams.

First of all, I can agree that there's explicit absence of claim(s) of inheritence, but also nobody challenged inclusion of SFR Yugoslavia and FR Yugoslavia results on history page of Basketball Federation of Serbia . As for FIBA crediting these achievements, they too haven't provided explicit statement regarding this issue. So until we have an absolutely clear situation, it should be either removed or at least replaced with proper statement, something like It is considered that none of these teams is an inheritor of the results the SFR Yugoslavia national basketball team had accomplished due to lack of official position of FIBA. IT.EngineerSRB (talk) 16:50, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

References