Template talk:Infobox F1 driver

Last win and Last Grand Prix columns

User:Pchc87 added the "Last win" and "Last Grand Prix" stats to the template recently (but filled in relevant the stats in the Michael Schumacher article only). I have a couple of questions:

What do you all think of these? Are they good additions to the template?
What is the correct entry for M. Schumacher's "Last Grand Prix?" I put the 2006 Italian GP there (as it was the last race he contested to date), but it was changed to Brazil and now it's blank. Majin Izlude ^talk! 19:11, 26 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think "Last win" is useful. I think "Last race" is important in template:Former F1 driver but I don't have strong feelings about whether or not it's included in this template. Note that if it is included in this template, then every current driver article needs to be updated after every Grand Prix. DH85868993 10:17, 3 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

edit link

Just wondering whether we should remove the "edit" link from the template, to discourage accidental editing and/or vandalism. DH85868993 00:06, 27 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Removed (a while back). DH85868993 02:22, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Starts before first win

While I was watching the Malaysian GP on Sunday, I was curious about the number of starts each driver had done before his first win. This got me thinking that other people might be interested in it as well. Do others think that this would be of enough interest in order to warrant a place in the infobox? If so, would starts before first pole also get a place? Rascalb (talk) 18:55, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think either is worth including in the infobox. If the number is very large (e.g. Fisichella, Button, Trulli, Barichello) or very low (e.g. Baghetti, J.Villeneuve) then this can/should be mentioned in the main body of the article. Incidentally, the list of the top ten "number of starts before first win" is documented here in case you weren't aware. DH85868993 (talk) 03:34, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image size

Must be added the option to reduce image size for files having poor resolution (see the ugly effect at Gerard Larrousse. --'''Attilios''' (talk) 21:07, 15 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Place of birth/death

I've noticed a couple of instances recently where a driver's place of birth has been added to the birth_date field, e.g. here and here. Question 1: Do we want to see place of birth/death included in the F1 driver infobox? Question 2: If yes to question 1, are we happy for that to be achieved using the existing birth_date and death_date fields (as in the linked examples), or would we like to add new birth_place and death_place fields (as in {{Infobox person}})? Discuss. DH85868993 (talk) 02:00, 16 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As the template is generally used at the top of biographical-type articles, I guess that it should ideally include separate fields for all the applicable {{Infobox person}} fields. All of the random sample of 10 templates that I looked at in Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/Infoboxes do. -- de Facto (talk). 12:27, 16 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I do agree we should be including places of birth/death. Like de Facto said, it's on every biographical article I've seen, so we should be following the convention set by other templates in having separate fields. QueenCake (talk) 21:54, 16 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have a strong opinion on this, but if birthplaces etc are to be included, they should be in separate fields rather than together with the birthdate. Bretonbanquet (talk) 22:04, 16 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OK. It looks like there's support for new fields to be added, so I have done that. DH85868993 (talk) 01:08, 18 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Too much screen space?

I sometimes wonder if this infobox occupies too much screen space, especially for drivers who didn't achieve much in their F1 career (e.g. Gianmaria Bruni). Would it be preferable to display some of the statistics horizontally and/or provide the ability to hide the statistics, as is done in Template:Infobox motorcycle rider? DH85868993 (talk) 02:10, 16 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I do not think the infobox occupies too much space and I do not think that we should shorten the data to save space. But I do think that they should provide the ability to hide the statistics. Editadam 11:53, 16 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's a problem, especially with the ones that were barely around, but the idea of an infobox is to have all the information displayed in the same place, so I don't agree with changing it. Having an option for hiding it is a good idea however, for the drivers who don't have enough text to actually go past the infobox. QueenCake (talk) 21:54, 16 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not keen on hiding an infobox, or parts of one. It's supposed to be a precis of the article, and should be readily available regardless of the quality of the guy's career. Any F1 driver should have enough information available to extend past the bottom of the infobox anyway, it's just a matter of finding it. I just about managed it with Asdrúbal Fontes Bayardo and he's as obscure as they come. Bretonbanquet (talk) 22:04, 16 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Helmet

Some drivers wear characteristic helmets. Can we add a field to allow an image of a driver's helmet colours to be displayed, the same way we show jersey colours for football teams? --Kwekubo (talk) 15:21, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Is the helmet a part of a drivers notability? If we are adding it to the drivers infobox then it would have to be something considered important for all, or at the very least a majority of driver. Would we then be able to source images for the several hundred drivers involved, bearing in mind Wikipedia does not have access to a huge photo library. If the drivers helmet is a small part of a drivers notability, or for a small number of drivers, then perhaps just a helmet section in the article, like for Valentino Rossi would be more appropriate than adding an image line that is going to be used for only about 30 or so drivers. --Falcadore (talk) 03:44, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure we considered something like this before, with the consensus being that an image that was solely a helmet design would be subject to copyright restrictions and we wouldn't be able to claim fair use if there wasn't a critical commentary on it. Besides, they change all the time nowadays. It's best to keep helmets out of the infobox. Readro (talk) 09:09, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Say this went through - how do you account for changes in helmet design? Every time Sebastian Vettel wins a race, he gives the helmet away and commissions a new design. So he regularly changes his helmet, and it's not like he only makes minor variations; the colours are often dramatically different from one race to the next. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 11:30, 9 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I like this one. The helmet is a shorthand for the driver (& on the game sites I'm on, substitutes for a portrait ;p ). I do wonder about a new pic every time Vettel changes it, tho. 8o (That's only twice during a race, right? ;p ) I also wonder about getting good pics. Also, how far back do we go? I'd be reluctant to have this just for current drivers. (I know, it wasn't a commonplace in the '60s, but...) TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 03:08, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The fair use problem for the images is probably going to wreck this idea. Unless someone figures out a solution or goes around taking photos of race helmets, it's a non-starter. Plus modern drivers change them too often and the recognition factor goes out of the window, Vettel being a prime example. Bretonbanquet (talk) 12:57, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What is the point in career points?

Is it to show how great a driver was? Mean we've been through 3 different point systems since the turn of the century and if it's to show a drivers greatness then it's flawed and irreverent. Mean you used to get a point for 6th then 8th and now 10th. Poles, wins and podiums are a greater marker of a drivers ability rather than the number of points they collected due to the different systems. Disability expert (talk) 21:45, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

abbreviations?

(moved from Template talk:Infobox F1 driver/doc)
The formula 1 TV broadcasts use three letter abbreviations for every driver, and have done so for the past fifteen years at least. Wouldn't it make sense to show those abbreviations in the inbox, too? Yoe (talk) 12:29, 9 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I have advertised this discussion at the Formula One WikiProject. DH85868993 (talk) 09:44, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

What would this look like? Wicka wicka (talk) 11:44, 11 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Link to List of Formula One drivers who have achieved a podium finish

Note: List of Formula One drivers who have a achievd a podium finish has been nominated for deletion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SSSB (talk • contribs) 12:27, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I recently created a new F1 list List of Formula One drivers who have achieved a podium finish and I noticed that on F1 driver info boxes where it says Wins it links to List of Formula One Grand Prix winners, where it says Pole Positions it links to List of Formula One polesitters etc. I was wondering if it would be a good idea to do the same for List of Formula One drivers who have achieved a podium finish? SSSB (talk) 19:17, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds reasonable to me. DH85868993 (talk) 21:22, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Erm.. How? I can't seem to find where to do this. SSSB (talk) 09:44, 28 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The way to do it would be to change:

| label18     = Podiums

to:

| label18     = [[List of Formula One drivers who have a achievd a podium finish|Podiums]]

but I think it makes sense to wait until we find out whether or not the article is going to be deleted before changing the template. DH85868993 (talk) 12:40, 28 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The article has been deleted. DH85868993 (talk) 10:40, 5 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Change 'Nationality' to 'Representing'

As we've seen on Tom Pryce talk page, 'Nationality' is offensive to some readers and editors, when used on biogs of drivers from countries such as Wales and Scotland. 'Representing' seems to be a better fit. If there's no objection, I'll change it. Sian EJ (talk) 10:18, 21 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'd suggest waiting until we see the outcome of the discussion at WP:F1 before making any change. DH85868993 (talk) 10:23, 21 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Also note that the current "Nationality" values are written as "British", "French", etc, so changing the text to "Representing" (if that's what you're proposing) would make them display as "Representing: British", "Representing: French", etc, which would be grammatically incorrect. DH85868993 (talk) 18:00, 21 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The current link is "[[FIA Super Licence#Nationality of drivers|Nationality]]", I suggest changing the last part to "Licence". --Pelmeen10 (talk) 17:26, 22 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That would solve the grammar issue. But I still suggest waiting to see the outcome of the WP:F1 discussion before making any changes. DH85868993 (talk) 20:10, 22 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with 'Licence'; this takes the heat out of the debate, and suggest that it's done now, rather than later. It is not dependant on any concesus as to whether an Infobox can contain 'Nationality'. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 09:14, 25 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Changing something just because it offends a few folks, isn't a good idea. GoodDay (talk) 14:37, 25 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That depends on the nature of the offence, the reasons behind it, and counter arguments. Each case should be looked at on its merits, but in this case the merits are poor. Pyrop e 14:51, 25 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I see we are now in to the forum shopping part of this debate. Oh dear. There is one major fault with changing 'Nationality' to 'Licence' and that is one of it not being true. Go away and read the FIA International Sporting Code; the codiefied word, the word used in all documentation, and the word used by the vast majority of third party sources is 'Nationality'. In FIA World Championship events it is possible for a driver to hold a licence from one country and for them to be regarded as a 'national' of another, with attendant flag use and national anthem. It is not up to Wikipedia editors to start defining things in different ways simply because a tiny but vocal minority are "offended" by the sky being blue. Pyrop e 12:53, 25 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Website field

A lot of current drivers have websites but there is no way to link to them in the F1 driver infobox as there is in the person infobox. Should a field be added for official websites?
5225_C (talk) 00:41, 28 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In the interests of increased visibility, I've advertised this discussion at WT:F1 (I'm not sure how many people are watching this template). DH85868993 (talk) 10:19, 28 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks
5225_C (talk) 11:19, 28 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support weakly per WP:ELOFFICIAL (It should be fairly easy to persuade me to change my mind as I'm not overly bothered).
SSSB (talk) 10:30, 28 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In case you need more convincing, WP:EL states that:

“...include appropriate external links in an "External links" section at the end of the article, and in the appropriate location within an infobox, if applicable.”

“Wikipedia articles about any organization, person, website, or other entity should link to the subject's official site, if any. See § Official links.”

“Official websites may be included in some infoboxes, and by convention are listed first in the External links section.”

5225_C (talk) 11:19, 28 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

An example of the website field in use can be seen in my Sandbox.
5225_C (talk) 03:52, 3 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Looks OK to me. DH85868993 (talk) 10:03, 4 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The field has been added to the infobox and websites have been added to all 2018, 2019, and 2020 drivers.
5225_C (talk) 12:35, 7 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nationality

It has recently come to my attention that the way we use |nationality = in this infobox violates MOS:INFOBOXUSE as us it to refer to sporting nationality, but other infoboxes use it to refer to personal nationality. It is therefore necessary for us to change the name of the parameter. I suggest that we change the parameter name to |representing =. How this appears in the infobox is more complicated, as the idea that drivers represent their nations is disputed (as people argue that aren't explicitly chosen), I therefore suggest that it renders as Competing as. Any thoughts or alternate suggestions? SSSB (talk) 09:58, 26 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

For a start, MOS is a guideline and not a law. Guidelines cannot be violated, they are applied with common sense. I therefore disagree that a change is necessary. The parameter is not used here as a nationality parameter in the personal information section of an infobox. We have a seperate section to list the world championship endeavours of the drivers and its nationality parameter is wikilinked to clarify its meaning. Just because one rogue editor claims this is unacceptable, it doesn’t mean it is. They do not own wikipedia. They need to stop their actions or be reported to the administrators.T v x1 10:45, 26 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Seems like a non-issue to me as well. Ved havet 🌊 (talk) 14:29, 26 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This a non-issue, but the editor(s) opposed to this for whatever reason seem quite persistent. I propose we simply rename the parameter |f1 nationality = and continue on our merry way. 5225_C (talk • contributions) 15:01, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Engines section

I do not understand why we should have engines section (What is next? Tyres? Fuels?), i.e. Ayrton Senna. For me it seems like complete WP:Trivia. Corvus tristis (talk) 04:10, 12 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The section is there because the engine manufacturers directly affect the drivers' performance and results, and also influence their careers. For example, Honda had a big influence on Ayrton Senna's career (see for example this source to better understand the relevance, and a team insider even says that he tended to think of Senna "as a Honda driver with a McLaren chassis"). For some drivers like Kazuki Nakajima, the engine manufacturer is arguably more relevant than the team, because he probably would not have competed in F1 without Toyota engines. Fuels and tyres generally have not had anywhere near as much impact on drivers' careers. Also note that this was previously discussed at WP:F1. Carfan568 (talk) 09:22, 12 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I understand your point but not sure if this impact is so much notable for majority of drivers, especially nowdays. I do not understand why this impact can't be described in text. My assumption that infobox should include limit amount of most important information. I would like to hear more opinions on these matter. Also I do not understand why if we treat this template feature as consensus-supported it had not reflection in the most of the drivers' articles. Corvus tristis (talk) 04:27, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sprint wins

Shouldn't this be a field? I was looking at George Russell's stats to see how this had been handled, and was disappointed. Obviously his sprint win doesn't count as a Grand Prix race win, but surely it should be displayed in some way? Mac Dreamstate (talk) 01:04, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It’s in the prose of his article.T v x1 09:05, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

And in his results matrix. What we shouldn't do is add fields to the infobox which aren't commonly used by other articles, sprint wins is one of those fields. ([1], [2]) SSSB (talk) 10:10, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Points adjusted to current system

I propose the field Career points (adjusted for [[{{{current season}}} Formula One World Championship|{{{current season}}}]]) with {{{adjusted points}}}, below the current field for career points. These adjusted points can be found on the website formula1points, and grant a better insight into this statistic. 2001:1C03:4013:4900:D3D:209:225B:AF79 (talk) 15:36, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Putting aside my concerns about the sources reliability. I'm not sure that this is WP:DUE - I have never seen this stat anywhere before. And we can't just add stats because we it "grant[s] a better insight into [the career points] statistic" SSSB (talk) 15:51, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You haven't because there are hardly any sports that use a scoring system similar to F1, fewer where the points are so significant (e.g. it's not featured on pages of F2 drivers), and probably none that change the system so frequently.

It does not just grant a better insight into the full career of a driver - also a more complete way of comparing newer drivers to their peers.

The site I mentioned is both a tool and an indirect source that correctly uses the point systems. It's really just a matter of calculating it by hand if you have concerns about it. 2001:1C03:4013:4900:D3D:209:225B:AF79 (talk) 17:43, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

When I said I had never seen a stat like that before I was talking within the context of Formula One, not sports in general. If only one (apparently fan created) source contains this info, it is a strong indicator that the content is WP:UNDUE. The way to persuade me that it is due is to find other sources that do this to (either citing this website, or doing their own calcs).

"also a more complete way of comparing newer drivers to their peers." What you would use the info for is irrelevant, the issue is that this stat looks WP:UNDUE - hownuseful you find it individually changes nothing. (As a side note, I think you are hitting on the head why this is uncommon - you can't realiatically compare Prost and Vettel in detail even if they had used the same points systems. The cars were completely different, so were the number of races, the strength of their opposition. This is why GOAT debates happen, there are too many factors for a the GOAT to be an undiputed fact.)

The main thing you need to do for this to be added to the infobox. You need to demostrate that this is a statistic that is used widely enough to warrant inclusion (use other stats not included, such as win percentage, as a guide). SSSB (talk) 18:44, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Addition of sprints separately

Sprints should be listed separately with sprint poles and sprint race entries and sprint race wins listed separately. PicturePerfect666 (talk) 18:26, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree. For the same reason we don't have a table for sprint results in the season summary articles or in the infoboxs for Grands Prix. It places undue emphasis on sprint results. I would also like to point your attention to the articles of MotoGP riders where this also isn't a thing. SSSB (talk) 18:57, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I cannot see a reason why, not to put it in the infobox which is akin the examples raised. PicturePerfect666 (talk) 23:37, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The examples raised? The only examples raised in this discussion were raised by me, and none of them support your proposal. SSSB (talk) 05:46, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think you have missed the point here.

Can please provide reasons for your no, and not just hand waving to other things which are similar but not the same?

Your response amounts to other stuff so this too which is a straw man position.

I’m not taking about motorbike racing and I’m not talking about complete F1 results tables. I am specifically referring to the info boxes. PicturePerfect666 (talk) 22:20, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I provided a reason for my no in the third sentence of my original reply. Placing this info into the infobox would place equal emphasis on the sprints and main races, which would be an WP:UNDUE level of emphasis on sprints, because they are not equal. (Which is the same reason why we don't do these similar but not the same things. Which is why I mentioned them. To point out that there is precednece for not including seperate sprint results). SSSB (talk) 18:26, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]