Only extended-confirmed editors may make edits related to the topic area, though editors who are not extended-confirmed may post constructive comments and make edit requests related to articles within the topic area on article talk pages. Should disruption occur on article talk pages, administrators may take enforcement actions against disruptive editors and/or apply page protection on article talk pages. However, non-extended-confirmed editors may not make edits to internal project discussions related to the topic area, even on article talk pages. Internal project discussions include, but are not limited to, Articles for deletion nominations, WikiProjects, requests for comment, requested moves, and noticeboard discussions.
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.
Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. Ifconsensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.
This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject International relations, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of International relations on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.International relationsWikipedia:WikiProject International relationsTemplate:WikiProject International relationsInternational relations articles
This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles
This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Russia, a WikiProject dedicated to coverage of Russia on Wikipedia. To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the project page, or contribute to the project discussion.RussiaWikipedia:WikiProject RussiaTemplate:WikiProject RussiaRussia articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ukraine, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Ukraine on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.UkraineWikipedia:WikiProject UkraineTemplate:WikiProject UkraineUkraine articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject NATO, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.NATOWikipedia:WikiProject NATOTemplate:WikiProject NATONATO articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject European history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the history of Europe on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.European historyWikipedia:WikiProject European historyTemplate:WikiProject European historyEuropean history articles
Stephen Harrison (1 March 2022). "How the Russian Invasion of Ukraine Is Playing Out on English, Ukrainian, and Russian Wikipedia". Slate. On Thursday, President Vladimir Putin issued the order for Russian forces to invade Ukraine. Since then, Russians have killed 352 Ukrainian civilians, including 14 children, according to Reuters. That information is now reflected on the English Wikipedia page for the "2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine," an article that sprang to life mere minutes after Putin's televised address and has been collaboratively written by nearly 740 distinct authors as of Tuesday morning.
Jenny Nicholls (12 March 2022). "History is written as it happens by Wikipedia editors". Stuff (website). Retrieved 14 March 2022. It has been fascinating to watch two very different Wikipedia pages emerge in recent weeks – 2022 Wellington protests, with 151 referenced sources and seven images; and the page 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, with, as I write, 626 references and 33 images.
Ina Fried (15 July 2022). "Wikipedia blazes a trail to agreement in a divided world". Axios (website). Retrieved 17 July 2022. The Wikipedia article (at least the English language one) includes some of Russia's most outlandish claims — such as the idea that the Ukrainian government included Nazis — but authoritatively debunks them as false.
The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:
Text has been copied to or from this article; see the list below. The source pages now serve to provide attribution for the content in the destination pages and must not be deleted as long as the copies exist. For attribution and to access older versions of the copied text, please see the history links below.
Whilst the map does give a generally good view of how the frontlines change, it’s often hard to tell how much it’s changed or if the change is significant or meaningful in any way. As such, I think it would be neat for there to at least be some way to view the previous maps from previous days in the war. (At the absolute minimum, there should be a new day-by-day timelapse that goes to the current date.) LordOfWalruses (talk) 02:28, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's worth noting that we now know that the maps from February-April 2022 are wildly inaccurate, so it might be best to create new revisions with the benefit of hindsight, depending on what exactly it is you think should be added to the page. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 22:51, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Adding revisions before putting the maps in a visible archive would be a good idea. (Also, in what ways are the old maps inaccurate?) LordOfWalruses (talk) 23:35, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
With the benefit of hindsight and higher-quality retrospective reporting we have the potential to create far more detailed and accurate maps of the early war. Examples of what I would consider inaccurate in the maps/gifs on this page would include depictions of Russian control over Vyshhorod, over areas between the Dnieper and the Desna, over Slavutych prior to 26 March 2022, over a bridgehead southeast of Chernihiv rather than southwest of it, over Bohodukhiv and Derhachi, over certain areas in Zhytomyr and Dnipropetrovsk Oblasts and countless dozens of other small obscure details where the "accurate" alternative is now verifiable through reliable sources. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 04:41, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
On migrating the infobox map, File:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine.svg, from Commons to Wikipedia[edit]
The users @Mr rnddude and @RadioactiveBoulevardier raised an interesting proposal at this recently archived discussion, suggesting that the map image in this article's infobox be moved to English Wikipedia's "jurisdiction", so that it can more strictly adhere to en.wiki policies (namely WP:V and in some cases, WP:SYNTH) in its capacity as a prominent image on a frequently viewed article. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 02:58, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I definitely agree with the policy based rationale. Cinderella157 (talk) 12:00, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's clear there are issues with the current version of the map despite the strong "consensus" it has. I have tried to say this several times, so any step towards actually making it more in line with WP policy is a step in the right direction. TylerBurden (talk) 14:05, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
An elaboration on the issues you have with the map would be appreciated. I only recall your WP:NOTNEWS concerns from previous discussions on this talk page, which I share to an extent. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 22:27, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Unconvinced. It's one Wikipedia, and the community's effort is to provide the same information across multiple languages. Hence Commons, hence Wikidata. — kashmīrīTALK 07:50, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thought I’d mention that next week I’m planning to do a fairly thorough survey of the way in which uk-wiki and ru-wiki handle the whole “what counts as a discrete battle” thing. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 02:35, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 June 2024[edit]
This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
There is significant biased framing in the article. Sentences are containing statements of subjective judgement next to statements of fact (eg. "falsely claimed" instead of "claimed" on issues that can not be proven or disproven). It also applies subjective moral judgments and fact checks next to citations of opinions which in their nature can not be either true or false. This is applying misleading framing with the intent of provoking emotional reactions in readers. For a platform presenting itself as an encyclopedia this is unacceptable and I urge you to allow the edit of emotionally, morally and ideologically biased content to preserve the objective credibility of the platform. 178.148.159.134 (talk) 12:18, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Edit requests are for specific changes (such as) A to B, not general requests or discussion. Slatersteven (talk) 12:25, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ordering of civilian and military casualties[edit]
The following ordering of civilian and military casualties came off as bizarre and POV,
It is estimated to have caused tens of thousands of Ukrainian civilian casualties and hundreds of thousands of military casualties.
so I re-ordered it to put military casualties first. The number of military casualties is a full order of magnitude greater than the number of civilian casualties.
The edit was reverted by @TylerBurden, with the reverter claiming that my paying attention to the ordering at all is bizarre. I was told to discuss it on the talk page.
When you have two separate statistics but one overwhelmingly larger than the other, it is usually somewhat more natural to put the larger statistic first, as it represents the more significant parameter. This is especially relevant when the ordering is relevant for propaganda purposes. It is well-known that civilian casualties (in all armed conflicts) are an important propaganda weapon. I am thus afraid the original wording could be perceived as propagandistic in nature.
The convention in armed conflicts is to mention combatant casualties prior to civilian casualties, especially when the former considerably exceeds the latter as is usually true. This is evident in the infoboxes of all major wars. I do not see any compelling reason here to stray from that convention. JDiala (talk) 21:47, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can you provide a link to this "convention"? Because like I mentioned in my edit summary, I don't think it matters, they are both described in literally the same sentence, and both are significant parts of the article, so the placement is subjective and thus there is no reason to change it. I also don't buy the propaganda argument, you could say the same thing about the edit you made placing civilians behind military based purely on numbers being some propaganda attempt to divert focus away from civilian casualties, which would be equally unconstructive. Since it has never been an issue until now I am guessing that most people aren't interpreting it the way you are. TylerBurden (talk) 23:31, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is a stylistic judgement. I don't think that, for stylistic judgements such as this, we require (say) a military handbook which says "mention military casualties before civilian casualties" or something. Rather, it is reasonable to make judgements as competent English speakers as to how a sentence should be optimally arranged to come off as neutrally as possible. I am making the judgement that it is better to put combatant casualties prior to civilian casualties, because the former exceeds the latter by a full order of magnitude. You claim that this could equally be interpreted as propaganda, but this is not true, because I have a logical, non-propaganda explanation for my version (italicized in the prior sentence), whereas you do not for yours.
Imagine one of the first sentences on the 9/11 article writing something like "the attacks killed dozens of soldiers in the Pentagon, as well as around three thousand civilians". That would be a bit weird as the framing appears to emphasize the soldiers dying, despite the nature of the attack (a terror attack on civilians) and that far more civilians died. This would thus not be a natural or neutral way to word things consistent with WP:IMPARTIAL, particularly in the lead where it is especially crucial to be impartial. Likewise here, this is an armed conflict where the overwhelming majority of people dead on both sides are armed soldiers. The immediate emphasis on the comparatively low number of Ukrainian civilian casualties strikes me as strange. This is especially considering that the ratio of civilian-military casualties is not unusually high in this particular war (unlike many other armed conflicts). A reasonable reader could interpret this as having a propagandistic slant. This is not consistent with the project's goals.
I feel that this is ultimately a difference of opinion. Unlike a content dispute, it is difficult to "prove" that a particular sentence has a biased tone, and we might not be able to come to an agreement. For this reason, I welcome input from other editors.
Finally, I am not sure why the fact that the issue has not come up before is relevant. It is quite frequent (in fact, the norm) that a revert made at any given point in time was not something previous editors noticed. JDiala (talk) 04:49, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 June 2024 [Belligerents section][edit]
This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
in the Belligerents section just like how it says Russia is supported by Belarus for Ukraine add that it is supported by United States of America 173.72.3.91 (talk) 20:18, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
North Korea has recently been added to the infobox as a belligerent citing this Kyiv Post article bearing the headline Pyongyang Says It Will Send Troops to Ukraine Within a Month. More specifically, the article says Pyongyang announced early this week that it will be sending troops in the form of a military engineering unit to support Russian forces on the ground in the Donetsk region. The actual planned deployment seems less significant than the title implies; remember WP:HEADLINES. My question is if/how we as editors intend on differentiating this North Korean military engineering support unit from Western countries' military advisors and support elements that are already on the ground as well. Best regards to all SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 18:46, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ukraine is completely dependent on foreign lethal military support.
Here are the the main points of opposition and their resolutions:
1. The West only provides hardware
In addition to having received military intelligence, combined arms combat training, analytical exercise preparation, and war games planning, Ukraine is now receiving fighter jets along with many months of NATO-provided training on those fighter jets.
2. Infobox creep
There only needs to be one entry - either UDCG, US or NATO.
3. Infobox inclusion of Ukraine support advances Russian propaganda
Omission is "Western" propaganda.
4. Distinguishing between aid type is complicated
The types of aid we care about are (a) lethal military aid and (b) the most severe economic sanctions possibly in the history of modern civilization. A single "Supported by" entry - UDCG, US or NATO - would encompass those two types of aid, and only those two types of aid.
After more than two years of conflict, it is far past time for that info box to present an honest assessment of who is engaged in this war. Without lethal military support from the leaders of the so called rules-based international order, Ukraine would have been forced to negotiate a peaceful resolution to this confict long ago. This reasonable inference should be reflected in that info box.
This hasn't happened yet. Troops are not on the ground and fighting. Also, per WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE we don't add leaders where these are not supported by the body of the article. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:11, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that it is premature at this point to make any changes to the infobox. But it may be worth discussing whether North Korea should be added as a belligerent if their troops (engineer corps) end up in Donetsk as announced. And I think the answer should be yes. --haha169 (talk) 05:22, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Iranian and Western troops are on the ground in arguably similar capacities, so the North Korean troops should not be considered in a vacuum in such a discussion. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 05:46, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What is the nature of Iranian "troops"? My understanding was that they were drone trainers only, and far from the frontlines. If you have a source for something more involved, please share. Similar with Western "troops", if the information is new/different from the last discussion that established consensus. --haha169 (talk) 14:38, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
.svg)
