User:Fantr/sandbox/Dalton

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Bond-Dalton revisionism[edit]

Several wiki articles claim

  • The producers asked Timothy Dalton to play Bond in On Her Majesty's Secret Service
  • Dalton was the producers' first choice to replace Roger Moore in 1986 and that the producers only considered Pierce Brosnan because Dalton was unavailable

Both claims are suspect. Although the Inside the Living Daylights documentary claims that Dalton was considered for OHMSS, there are reasons to doubt this. Dalton himself claims in this same documentary that the producers approached him when he was either 24 or 25 and had already done several films including Mary, Queen of Scots (1971). Further, Inside On Her Majesty's Secret Service documentary does not mention Dalton at all. Peter Hunt is quoted as saying that the producers wanted another Sean Connery. (Hunt, 0:04:31)

When we examine the chronology,

  • October 1967: Rehearsals for The Lion in Winter take place at the Haymarket Theatre in London. The film co-stars Timothy Dalton, making his film debut. (Source: Bergan, Ronald. Katharine Hepburn: An Independent Woman, Arcade Publishing, 1996; pg. 155. ISBN 9781559703512.)
  • 7 October 1967: Television show Sat'day While Sunday debuts in Britain. Timothy Dalton co-stars; his first tv appearance. He appears in 10 of the 14 episodes. "Fourteen-part serial about modern teenagers in the North of England." (Source: British Film Institute Film & TV Database "Sat'day While Sunday".) Dalton plays Peter, a rich teenager who vies with Malcolm McDowell for the same girl.
  • either 20 or 27 November 1967: The Lion in Winter begins filming. (Source: Callan, Michael Feeney (2004). "Anthony Hopkins: A Three Act Life". London: Robson Books. pp. 98, 100, 105. ISBN 186105761X.)
  • 15 December 1967: The Boston Globe reports that Katherine Hepburn is in Ireland filming The Lion in Winter.
  • 11 February 1968: The Sarasota Herald-Tribune (pg. 4 "Family Weekly" supplement) reports that Katherine Hepburn is in London filming The Lion in Winter. (Comment: No filming was done in London. Source: IMDB website: Filming locations for "The Lion in Winter".) The production moved from Ireland to Wales to France.)
  • 1 March 1968: The Middlesboro Daily News (pg. 5) reports that Katharine Hepburn has finished filming The Lion in Winter in Paris. (Comment: there was no filming in Paris itself. Source: IMDB website: Filming locations for "The Lion in Winter".)
  • April 1968: "Broccoli and Saltzman had narrowed the field down to five actors." (Source: Rubin, Steven Jay (2003). The Complete James Bond Movie Encyclopedia (3rd ed.). Contemporary Books. pg. 225. ISBN 9780071412469.)
  • May 1967: Filming on The Lion in Winter ends. (Source: Wapshott, Nicholas (1984). "Peter O'Toole: A Biography". Beaufort Books. pg. 145. ISBN 9780825301964.)
  • 14 May 1968: The Sarasota Herald-Tribune (pg. 26) reports that producer Joe Levine flew to London to see the first completed print of The Lion in Winter.
  • 7 July 1968: George Lazenby shoots test footage.
  • 7 October 1968: George Lazenby announced as the new Bond.
  • 21 October 1968: On Her Majesty's Secret Service begins shooting on location in Switzerland.
  • 30 October 1968: Timothy Dalton's first film The Lion in Winter premieres in the United States.
  • 29 December 1968: The Lion in Winter premieres in the U.K. (London)

The only time the producers could have considered Dalton, if indeed they did, would have been no later than June 1968. I do not believe the producers would seriously consider an actor who was making his first film and who was not seeking the part. My opinion of course is irrelevant. However as the cited documentary contains conflicting information, and only briefly mentions this OHMSS claim, I do not think we should treat it as fact. Further, the documentary provides no further documentary evidence to support this OHMSS claim. Albert R. Broccoli's autobiography only mentions that he considered Dalton between Moonraker and For Your Eyes Only. Bond historian Charles Helfenstein, the author of a book about the making of On Her Majesty's Secret Service (Helfenstein, Charles. "The Making of "On Her Majesty's Secret Service". (London), Spies Publishing, 2001, ISBN 0984412603.), claimed that director Peter R. Hunt denied that they had ever approached Dalton for that particular film. (Helfenstein owns Hunt's entire production and correspondence archive from On Her Majesty's Secret Service. He conducted many interviews with Hunt from 1995 until Hunt's death in 2002.) Helfenstein writes that, "In a 1995 conversation I had with Peter Hunt he said Dalton was never screen tested, nor a candidate for OHMSS in any real sense. Dalton's earliest public discussion of pre-TLD Bond candidacy was on Good Morning America in 1987 and he said it was for DAF that he was approached. The story keeps changing now that it was OHMSS. The other issue that disproves this is that OHMSS was cast by Saltzman, and DAF was cast by Broccoli. And Dalton's casting memories revolve around Broccoli."

I cite two more Bond historians. Robert Sellers, author of The Battle for Bond claims that the producers approached Dalton no earlier than 1970. (Source: Sellers, Robert. "Sean Connery: A Celebration." (1999) London: Robert Hale. p. 79. ISBN 9780709061250.) Steven Jay Rubin also claims that the Bond producers approached Dalton after Diamonds Are Forever. (Source: Rubin, Steven Jay (2003). The Complete James Bond Movie Encyclopedia (3rd ed.). Contemporary Books. p. 98. ISBN 9780071412469.)

What concerns me, and why I go to all this trouble, is that too many people now believe that if Dalton had been interested, the part would have been his for the asking and he would have starred in On Her Majesty's Secret Service. In a 1987 interview, Dalton denied that the producers had offered him the role. "I was asked if I would be interested in doing it, which is not quite the same thing." (Source: Uricchio, Marylynn. "Dalton's ready to stay on as Fleming hero." Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. 31 July 1987. p. 14 Weekend supplement. Available online.) Moreover, Dalton told another interviewer that the Bond producers approached many actors including himself at approximately the same time. (Source: Pfeiffer, Lee. Lisa, Philip. "The Incredible World of 007". (1992) Publisher: Citadel. ISBN 9780806513119.) The Bond producers approached many actors during the 1960s and into the early 1970s: Clint Eastwood, Robert Wagner, Michael Gambon, Julian Glover, Adam West - even director John Frankenheimer reports being asked to do a screen-test. Michael Wilson also says that the producers regularly met and screen-tested actors for the Bond role. Faulty wikipedia information finds its way into books; in turn, wikipedia editors rely on these books when citing primary sources. People's memories become fuzzy with age; thinking back 20-30-40 years isn't foolproof; 1967 to 1973 was a hectic period for EON. Numerous claims that have been taken as fact have been subsequently debunked. For example, Producer Cubby Broccoli claimed that Ian Fleming's first choice for Bond during Doctor No's casting was the star of The Saint television programme Roger Moore. Or that Fleming made Bond Scottish after the producers cast Connery in the role. And for many years Bond fans and too many books and articles have said that Kingsley Amis wrote/re-wrote/finished Fleming's final Bond novel The Man with the Golden Gun. Proper research debunked each of these so-called "facts". Elsewhere Barbara Broccoli claims that Moneypenny and Q weren't in the 2006 Casino Royale because they hadn't appeared in the book.[1] "Ian Fleming Publications" claims that Kingsley Amis's involvement in the novel Colonel Sun was a well-guarded secret at the time of publication and that only in the 1990s did Amis reveal he'd written the novel.[2][1]

The Pfeiffer & Lisa book quotes Dalton as saying that the producers approached him for On Her Majesty's Secret Service. This interview appears to have occurred twenty-four years after the alleged fact. We do not know if Dalton identified the actual film title or was prompted. I note that Dalton in television interviews never identifies the film itself, instead saying that he was "24 or 25".

British birth records and many interviews indicate that Dalton was born in 1946, despite numerous reference guides claiming 1944.

One website cited in the Dalton article as a primary source also claimed that the producers asked Dalton to play Bond in 1984 for A View to a Kill but scheduling conflicts prevented Dalton taking the role. There is no truth to this. The James Bond in film articles cites a careless BBC article about Dalton claiming the producers approached him again in 1983. This is also not true. Yet wikipedia editors have cited both web pages as primary sources to prove that the producers approached Dalton first in 1986 to replace Roger Moore.

The Inside the Living Daylights documentary does not support a claim that the producers approached Dalton in 1986 before Pierce Brosnan. The documentary does not explicitly state this. It interviews several key people involving in the film's production about the casting process. The film splices these interviews together in such a way that some have extrapolated the "Dalton before Brosnan" myth.

  • 0:01:19 Patrick Macnee (narrator documentary), "With Roger Moore's retirement from the role of 007, Michael Wilson and Richard Maibaum embark on a script for the next film without knowing who will eventually play James Bond."
  • 0:02:21 Macnee, "As writing begins, the part of James Bond is yet to be cast."
  • 0:02:25 Michael G. Wilson says, "We weren't quite sure exactly how to go with the part, so we sort of wrote it fairly middle-of-the-road. We didn't make it as comic as it had been with Roger."
  • 0:02:36 John Glen says, "We were actively looking for a replacement which is no easy task, believe me."
  • 0:02:40 Wilson, "We have tested people from time to time between films."
  • 0:02:55 Anthony Waye (production supervisor) says, "the first test(ed) was Sam Neill."
  • 0:03:26 Macnee, "An actor who has long been high on the list of candidates is Timothy Dalton who was first approached for On Her Majesty's Secret Service."
  • 0:03:38 Dalton, "I was about 24 or 25 then. I had a good career as a young man in films [inaudible] The Lion in Winter, Cromwell, Mary, Queen of Scots, Wuthering Heights. And Mr. Broccoli very kindly asked me if I'd be interested."
  • 0:04:05 Dalton, "And as a 25, 26 year old, you know, it would not have been right."
  • 0:04:11 Macnee, "Dalton turns the role down in 1968.
  • 0:04:37 Macnee, "But Dalton's commitment to the film Brenda Starr means he will be unavailable when The Living Daylights begins production."
  • 0:05:37 Macnee, "Meanwhile an actor many think is ideal for the role is coming to the end of his network television contract."
  • 0:05:44 John Glen says, "Someone that we'd always considered was Pierce Brosnan."

This appears to be the chronology of what happened in 1986,

References[edit]

  1. ^ "It was published under the name of Robert Markham. This pseudonym was later revealed as the disguise of Kingsley Amis, the distinguished novelist and author of The James Bond Dossier, which was published in 1965. Colonel Sun was a great success on publication and the intriguing mystery of the author’s identify was well kept. Amis was happy to write a foreword to the novel’s reissue in 1991[.]"

Excerpts[edit]

Uricchio: The verdict is still out on whether audiences will accept the 41-year-old Dalton in The Living Daylights. [...] "It would be unfair to say I was offered the role. I was asked if I would be interested in doing it, which is not quite the same thing. Plain and simple, I thought it would be a stupid, dumb, foolish move to take over from Sean Connery. He was wonderful. The objective thing would be that I was too young. I was 24 or 25 at the time." (Source: Uricchio, Marylynn. "Dalton's ready to stay on as Fleming hero." Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. 31 July 1987. p. 14 Weekend supplement. Available online.)

Broccoli & Zec: Michael was impressed by the Australian actor Sam Neill, whereas I had my reservations. Michael, Barbara and John Glen were all keen on Neill. Ladbroke's had him as a clear favourite. Meanwhile a new contender entered the scene: Pierce Brosnan, a young actor, star of the hit TV series Remington Steele. UA were strongly behind him, largely because of his successful TV image. In terms of looks and style, he'd have probably taken us along the Roger Moore route. But we were looking for a harder-edged actor who could take Bond into a new dimension. Still, of all these we'd seen, Brosnan appeared to be the best compromise. The case against him, from our point of view, was that the TV company would be getting mileage out of the 007 magic internationally, while to audiences, rather than something special, he would be just another TV star. There was a moment when I thought we might just use him. We made this stipulation to his agent: if he could be cleared completely out of the TV series, cutting all ties with the network, we would consider him. He was wildly keen to play the part. But when talks began with the network, there was a lot of there was a lot of stalling. In the end, his TV contract was renewed, and our search continued. Throughout all this flurry in Hollywood and London, there was a patient but persistent voice in the background. It was Dana's. 'Why don't you have another look at Timothy Dalton?' she suggested. Seven years earlier I had twice talked to him about playing Bond. Those were the occasions when we were having some differences with Roger, and we had to be prepared with a replacement. But Timothy considered he was too young. He also said the part intimidated him, which I found interesting, coming from an experienced Shakespearean actor. Also, Michael detected in his reluctance some uncertainty about our genuineness in looking for a new 007. Dana was absolutely convinced from the start that he would make a first-class Bond. Now, seven years later, she was just as certain. I told her Timothy had gone on record saying he didn't want the part. Dana, with that enervatingly sweet insistence, replied, `Why don't we have him over for a drink at the Dorchester?' When we met with Timothy we saw that those seven years had added poise, experience and self-assurance. Dana was right. He stood out from the bunch. He was obviously excited at the idea. He said he'd read the Bond books, and would want to play the character closer to the way Fleming wrote it. I said that was fine with me. He saw Bond as being more serious, just as ballsy as Connery's 007, but carrying his own personal imprint Well, this, too, was in line with the sort of Bond we had in mind. Timothy was playing in The Taming of the Shrew opposite Vanessa Redgrave in London at the time. He also had a commitment to film Brenda Starr in Puerto Rico with Brooke Shields. But we were prepared to wait the six weeks until he became available. At first he didn't want to test for the part. He felt his track record as an actor was sufficient. But Michael explained to him, 'Look, nobody doubts your talents. But we have to see you as Bond just to get an idea of what we're dealing with, what we have on camera.' He was reluctant, but finally agreed. We tested him in a couple of scenes from On Her Majesty's Secret Service, as a lover and as a killer. All his years of training and experience showed. We had our new James Bond.

Rubin: Interestingly, the producers' interest in Timothy Dalton as a potential Bond dates back to 1971, following the release of Diamonds Are Forever, Sean Connery's final film for Cubby Broccoli. But Dalton was too young then - only 25 - and he wasn't interested in sidetracking his emerging career.

Sellers: Dalton was actually a possible Bond candidate as far back as 1970. "I was very flattered, but I think anybody would have been off their head to have taken over from Connery." Ultimately though, Connery felt Dalton didn't quite get a handle on the role. "Timothy played it too seriously in the wrong way." He also criticized the way both Dalton Bond movies were handled; in his view they were too politically correct, "not quite dirty enough."

Pfeiffer & Lisa: "There was a time when Sean Connery gave up the role. I guess I, alongside quite a few other actors, was approached about the possibility of playing the part. That was for On Her Majesty's Secret Service. I was very flattered, but I think anybody would have been off their head to have taken over from Connery. I was also too young, Bond should be a man in his mid-thirties, at least - a mature adult who has been around." (Source: Pfeiffer, Lee. Lisa, Philip. "The Incredible World of 007". (1992) Publisher: Citadel. ISBN 9780806513119.) This interview appears to have occurred twenty-four years after the alleged fact. We do not know if Dalton said the actual film title or he was prompted. I note that Dalton in television interviews never identifies the film itself, instead saying that he was "24 or 25".

Keough: It was followed by leading parts in equally opulent if less successful British productions such as "Cromwell" (1970), "Wuthering Heights" (1970) and "Mary, Queen of Scots" (1971). His fame came to the attention of Albert "Cubby" Broccoli, producer of the [James Bond] series, who asked Dalton if he would like to replace the departing Sean Connery as Agent 007. "I was too young," Dalton says, explaining why he turned down Broccoli's offer. "But a more compelling reason was that I thought it would be foolish to take over from Sean Connery who created the role and had thrust it into the world's consciousness." (Source: Keough, Peter. "Of Human Bondage: Timothy Dalton sheds light on role of heroic Agent 007". Chicago Sun-Times. Aug 2, 1987.)

The Lion in Winter press book: As a newcomer to films, Timothy Dalton may need an introduction, but probably not for long. Only 22, he is already regarded as one of the freshest young talents in the talent-rich British theatre. Tall and slim, he has the requisite screen presence for the precise and demanding part of Philip, arch rival to England's Henry II for power, territory and wealth. Dalton made up his mind to be an actor after attending his first play, an Old Vic production of Macbeth. He found the experience earth-shaking and at 16, while in school at Bellper, he joined the dramatic group. Born in Colwyn Bay, North Wales, he is the son of an advertising executive and the grandson of noted music hall performers. After graduating from school, Dalton joined the local community theatre, the Bellper Players and from there went to the National Youth Theatre. 1964 was the year of his professional debut, a small role at the Queen's Theatre in Coriolanus. Naturally enough, he spent two years at R.A.D.A., and was given his first professional lead in the National Youth Theatre's production, Little Malcolm and His Struggle Against the Eunuchs. A contract offer came from the Birmingham Repertory Theatre, and with that fine group he appeared in a succession of classical plays. Television beckoned in 1967 in the form of a series called Saturday While Sunday. He took the lead while still appearing at Birmingham, and, after finishing The Lion in Winter went back to Birmingham for a leading role in Shaw's St. Joan. Not unexpectedly, several film offers followed him there.

Comments[edit]

All very interesting stuff and I think you're probably on the right path. It always amazes me how many inaccuracies crop up in the media (that we instinctively cite in articles!) The problem is that the cites do exist, which means people will always point to them, and throw out an accusation of WP:OR at you. I think the best way forward would be to build up a good solid paragraph, built on sources, and put it in the Dalton article. I'd then add a footnote with a little more background and back-up. I think that's the best place for the main bulk of information.

After that I'd start removing it from the Bond articles, but add a footnote, with citations, to show that whilst (eg. the BBC) may say he was auditioned, this is disputed and put a re-direct on to the footnote in the Dalton article for the full set of citations.

It's all a bit belt-and-braces, but if we're going against the sources we'll need to be able to back it up quite firmly. I'll ask Betty Logan for her input too—she's spectacularly good at suggesting ways to deal with these things. - SchroCat (^ • @) 08:39, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

  • I do have a few problems with this. While there is a real problem of false claims and erroneous facts making their way into Wikipedia because they are included in books and articles, we have to be careful not to adopt a stance ourselves. Constructing hypothetical timelines which may not account for all the facts comes very close to WP:SYNTHESIS. Another complication here is the discrepencies over Dalton's age, so we can't really pin down the timeframe by his own quotes. You have to remember, that being 'considered', being 'approached' and being 'offered' the part are all very different things. Casting was pretty much an ongoing concern from 1967 up until Roger Moore got the part. It may be the case Dalton was 'considered' for OHMSS along with every other good looking 20-something British actor, and may have been approached about the part for Diamonds Are Forever. I mean, Peter Hunt's recollection that he was not screentested doesn't actually rule out the possibility his name was in the hat. The sources confuse the dates, they confuse the films, and there is ambiguous language at work, so the actual *known* facts i.e. what we can categorically prove don't preclude Dalton being considered from 1968 onwards. The bottom line is we don't know. Similarly with his casting in the 80s, Moore's contract ran out after Moonraker, and I've even seen a source that actually claimed they tried to get Sean Connery back, by the production manager no less! Roger Moore held out for more money on each of his last three films, so it's possible that any number of actors were approached during this period, including Dalton. The sources do generally agree he was considered, possibly approached for the part some time between 1968–1972, there is just inconsistency about the time and the film, so I think maybe that is the line we should adopt rather than trying to pin it down, and we should probably restrict the sources to first hand accounts to avoid the Chinese whisper effect. Betty Logan (talk) 11:26, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
Let me address SchroCat's comments first. "Reliable, published sources" do exist to support my position. In particular I rely on Bond producer Cubby Broccoli's own autobiography. One cannot get more "primary source" than that. Whereas the opposing cites - such as that BBC article - are Tertiary sources. Other cites link to fan websites, which, as we all know have no value. Several cites source the "Inside The Living Daylights" documentary, yet this is inference as the documentary does not state that the producers approached Dalton before Brosnan in 1986. In fairness one could argue that if the producers considered Dalton some time between 1968-1972, then of course they considered him before Brosnan who only came to their attention in 1980. - Fanthrillers (talk) 00:44, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
Now I address Betty Logan's comments. Original research and synthesis exist only to show why we should trust primary sources, and would never supplant primary sources. Whilst we cannot be certain what year Dalton was born, he himself has said many times in many interviews since 1986 that the producer(s) approached him after he had done several films including Mary, Queen of Scots which is a 1971 film. Apart from the Pfeiffer & Lisa book, Dalton has never said which film he was considered for. Your other comments about casting reiterate what my article claims, though you seem to imply that I've said the exact opposite. I wasn't suggesting that we should state as fact that Eon considered him for Diamonds are Forever or Live and Let Die. But rather, I argued that Bond articles should not claim as fact that the producer(s) offered him the role for On Her Majesty's Secret Service. I'll have more to say tomorrow. - Fanthrillers (talk) 00:54, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
It looks like we've got our crossed wires here. Maybe if you drafted actually what was going into the Dalton article it would give me and SC a clearer view of the matter. I think limiting accounts to official representation and first hand accounts would be a wise move:
  1. The Inside the Living Daylights documentary claims that Dalton was considered for OHMSS. (Need quote)
  2. Albert R. Broccoli's autobiography only mentions that he considered Dalton between Moonraker and For Your Eyes Only. (Need quote)
  3. Bond historian Charles Helfenstein, the author of a book about the making of On Her Majesty's Secret Service (Helfenstein, Charles. "The Making of "On Her Majesty's Secret Service". (London), Spies Publishing, 2001, ISBN 0984412603.), claimed that director Peter R. Hunt denied that they had ever approached Dalton for that particular film. Helfenstein writes that, "In a 1995 conversation I had with Peter Hunt he said Dalton was never screen tested, nor a candidate for OHMSS in any real sense."
  4. Dalton's earliest public discussion of pre-TLD Bond candidacy was on Good Morning America in 1987 and he said it was for DAF that he was approached. (Need quote)
  5. In a 1987 interview, Dalton denied that the producers had offered him the role. "I was asked if I would be interested in doing it, which is not quite the same thing." (Source: Uricchio, Marylynn. "Dalton's ready to stay on as Fleming hero." Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. 31 July 1987. p. 14 Weekend supplement. Available online.) (note that Dalton doesn't mention which film he was approached about doing)
  6. The Pfeiffer & Lisa book quotes Dalton as saying that the producers approached him for On Her Majesty's Secret Service. (Need quote)
I'd pull the A View to a Kill claim since the BBC don't supply any evidence to back it up. I would also pull the claims about Dalton having the part before Brozzie, since Inside the Living Daylights provides a pretty specific chronology of those events. To assume that Dalton was offered the role simply because the documentary observed he was unavailable is just an assumption. Betty Logan (talk) 10:43, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
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