User talk:Necrothesp/Archive 12/Secondary schools

Hi Necrothesp, I'm rather new and I have been looking at AfD's (although commenting on very few) and have read with interest your and Noroton's pages on the inherent notability of high schools. I really have little passion about the topic although it would be nice to have a consensus reached as there is a lot of sound and fury being expended over the subject. As 'WP is not paper' I probably would come down on the inclusionist side, but I have a question. Noroton says on his rationale page, 'High schools are inherently notable IMHO, and no harm would be done if every high school in the nation had a Wikipedia article' (emphasis mine), and while you do not specify locales I wonder if you limit this blanket notability to US or Western culture schools. I have spent several years in Nepal, and lesser amounts of time in other developing countries and if anything the arguments re: the importance of these schools to the students and indeed the countries themselves is as great or greater than it is in Western/US schools. Truly, I have no axe to grind, I'm just interested in your thoughts. Thnx--killing sparrows 07:27, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

No, I do not consider US/western schools (I'm English myself, incidentally) to be inherently more notable than schools elsewhere. Wikipedia is divided by the language in which it is written, not by country: just because this is English Wikipedia is no reason to discriminate against schools in non-English-speaking countries. Obviously, schools in English-speaking countries are more likely to be written about, given that a majority of people who write here are native English speakers, but if someone wants to write about a school in another country I would support the retention of that article too (and in fact have done in the past, when articles on some African and Belgian schools were nominated for deletion). In a debate I was involved in some time ago, someone even suggested that we should not have articles on all universities in China, as they were not particularly interesting to most readers of English Wikipedia and (the old argument) were difficult to source. I emphatically oppose statements like that - if the existence of the institution can be verified then an article, if only a stub, can and should be written about it. -- Necrothesp 13:59, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

WP:N

Hi, interesting essay. Maybe you could address one of my favorite deletion arguments: "There is no consensus at WP that secondary schools are or are not notable, as evidenced by their frequent deletion on notability grounds at AfDs." If you feel I need to support that position, you can take a look at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/White Knoll High School, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dysart High School, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Northern Bedford County High School, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lowndes High School and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/North Side High School (Fort Worth, Texas). Why do I care? Well, I still have this naive notion that someday people like you and people like me will be able to agree on a consistent policy on school inclusion so we can focus our energies on other things. Take care. --Butseriouslyfolks 04:42, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi. I'm not entirely sure why being no consensus that they are notable is an argument for deletion. There's no consensus that they're not notable either. In fact, it appears that far more secondary school articles that go to AfD are kept than deleted. And as I said, I'm not an inclusionist - I frequently vote delete on AfDs if I don't think the article in question is notable. I've nominated many articles for AfD and prodded many articles as well. I just happen to think that secondary schools are inherently notable. -- Necrothesp 10:08, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I understand that that is your personal opinion, but AfDs don't operate by personal opinion, they operate by consensus. You argue in this essay and at AfDs that WP:N is satisfied automatically, without citations to reliable sources, because such schools are inherently notable. My point is that WP:N is not satisfied because your argument / personal opinion is not supported by WP:Consensus. The point I raise is not a deletion argument in itself, but I feel it disposes of your "keep because they are inherently notable" argument, leaving WP:N unsatisfied. Understand my position? And by the way, I'm not really a deletionist either, and have often !voted keep at AfD (even for elementary school with independent notability). I just don't like to have articles that do not meet our criteria. Take care and thanks for the reply! --Butseriouslyfolks 10:29, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

What I'm saying is that not being a consensus that they're notable is not a reason for deletion unless there is also a consensus that they're not notable, which there blatantly isn't. As I'm sure you're aware (and contrary to what many people who quote it would have us believe), WP:N is a guideline, not a policy, and thus failure (or alleged failure) to satisfy it is not a criterion for deletion. I know this essay is just my opinion - I've never claimed it was anything else and I merely wrote it to provide more detail on that opinion and avoid repeating myself in every AfD discussion. Your arguments are also your opinion. But at the end of the day, AfD is about opinion. Unless the article blatantly contravenes policy, the consensus (or lack of) is formed by people expressing their opinion. -- Necrothesp 10:54, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Rebuttal

From your essay: They are very notable institutions to their pupils, they are also very notable institutions to their former pupils. My response: "The common theme in the notability guidelines is that there must be verifiable, objective evidence that the subject has received significant attention from independent sources to support a claim of notability." Saying that something is notable to a specific group of people is the very opposite of objective.

So many people are influenced by every school, for good or ill... This is not just a few people, but in most cases many thousands. WP:POPULARITY. --Atlantima (talk) 18:35, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

WP:TNT

Interesting essay. Please be advised, however, that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and that it cannot be expected to host anything which makes no attempt to be an encyclopedia article. I have, on more than one occasion, nominated a secondary school article for deletion per WP:TNT.--Launchballer 16:50, 17 July 2014 (UTC)