Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Alexander Pentland

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The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Alexander Pentland[edit]

Nominator(s): Ian Rose (talk)
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Nominating another WWI ace for A-Class review in this expansion from a stub, another great character in the annals of Australian military (and civil) flying... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:35, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment, in the lead his death date is given as circa 4 November 1983, the only information given in the body of the article is that his funeral was on 7 November 1983 - on what basis is the date fo the 4th given? David Underdown (talk) 13:58, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just that 3 days is a rough average of time from death to funeral. I originally had c. 7 November that's hardly realistic. Unfortunately going through the microfiche of the SMH, The Australian, The Times, and a number of popular papers yielded no other obituaries or death notices. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:10, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Three days seems very quick to me from my (limited) experience in the UK, but I guess Aus might be different. Looking at the MOS, WP:MOSBD seems to allow use of "before" in various contexts, so saying before 7 November 1983 might be the best solution? David Underdown (talk) 14:25, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My bad taste response to 3 days seeming quick based on UK practice is that it is quite a bit hotter down here... ;-) Seriously though, "before" sounds fair too, perhaps see if anyone else has an opinion either way? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:43, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Before" might be the best way to go, as the three days may be considered to be slightly verging on OR, but also I have never heard of a funeral being held so quick! As an aside, it may be worth pouring through his service record(s) as I have found before that some have mentions of dates of death in them. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 06:45, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Heh, not only pored through the service record as well as the newspapers, but even had a look in NSW Hansard for around that time just in case they eulogised him (no such luck anywhere)...! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:51, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Geez! Just to find a bloody date! Give it another three or four years and you might find some luck with the NSW Registry of Births, Deaths and Marriages! Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 06:18, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments – a good article, and close to A-Class, but a few comments first:

  • Is it really critical to mention the four higher scoring Australian aces in the lead? By all means, mention that he was the fifth highest scoring, but I do not think we really need to have them listed in the lead. Also, the fact that he was the fifth highest scoring and the mention of those who achieved higher tallies are not mentioned in the prose, so this is uncited.
    • I think that extra tidbit in the first para helps balance the two parts of the lead, so prefer to leave it. Well-spotted about not being in the main body and hence cited, though.
      • Fair enough, just as long as we don't get to the 10th ace and list all the names. ;-) Abraham, B.S. (talk) 06:18, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the lead, there is repetition of "attaining the rank of" in both paragraphs pertaining to his ranks in both World Wars. It might be best to tweak one of these.
    • I noticed that but the occurrences seemed far enough apart not to be too repetitive, but happy to alter one.
  • The mention of Pentland possibly being "the oldest operational pilot in the wartime RAAF" is not mentioned in the prose either, and could also do with a cite.
    • Well-spotted again, tks.
  • Is it known why he was nicknamed "Jerry"?
    • Heh, now you know I'd tell you if I knew, don't you... ;-) Oddly, even his bio doesn't say.
      • I assumed that was the answer. Geez, it would have been nice if Pentland was a little less secretive; unknown date of death; unknown orign of nickname ... Lol. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 06:18, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Are there any further details available about his service at Gallipoli or with the 12th Light Horse Regiment? The regiment's unit history is here if that helps.
    • Yep, I know that one from Elwyn King; not a lot there that's relevant but added a snippet, and a little more detail about illness.
  • I would advise that you have a look at Pentland's First and Second World War service records. I had a quick look though his Second World War one earlier, and it may be of some use as it contains quite a summary list of Pentland's postings during both wars, as well as the full citation for his Air Force Cross. On a related note, I see that his AFC recommendation is cited to the AWM record of his medals, which is fine. However, I would advise that you take caution when using information from the AWM's collections, as the summaries on some of the artefacts I have found can be a little dodgey or just plain old incorrect.
    • Yep, always go through the NAA records to ensure no major contradictions with the preferred secondary/tertiary sources but apart from unit and promotion dates they're pretty bare. There may be something in the RAAF unit histories.
  • Are any further details on his transer or training with the RFC known?
    • Can check the bio.
  • "On 20 July, soon after arriving at his new unit" - it might be best to clarify the year, here, as it is a new paragraph.
    • Okay.
  • "Baron Von Richtofen" - being picky here, but I think the "von" is meant to be decapitalised. :)
    • Quite right, and you be as pedantic as you like - I would... ;-)
  • In the paragraph between his MC and DFC citations, it would be best if the year was clarified, particularly as the last year date given was 1918, but I presume this is talking about 1917?
    • Fair point.
  • It isn't really mentioned when he was promoted to lieutenant or captain. Are either of these known?
    • Again, can check the bio.
  • "threw an "uppity" AFC man into a mess fireplace" - although this does not sound pleasant, I find it highly amusing and am forced to ask is there any further info available on this? Where there any repercussions from the altercation?
    • I recall it mentioned in Couldhard-Clark's The Third Brother as well but don't think the description was any more detailed - might see next time I get hold of the book but that's not always easy so don't hold your breath...
  • Is there any further information on Pentland's service in the Second World War. To me, it seems to be lacking a little detail-wise.
    • Think the balance is about right compared to WWI and between the wars but if the unit histories or bio yield more detail I'll put it in...

Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 06:45, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Tks for review Bryce. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:51, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Back to you, mate... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:38, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Most welcome for the review. I found this an excellent read about a highly interesting, and amusing, man. I believe my comments have been addressed, so changed to support. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 06:18, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
SupportComments
  • Why aren't the quotes "pulled" using the block quote formatting?
    • I think the quote template used is generally acceptable as well.
      • True. Personal preference I guess :)
  • Lead, "for "Conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty"". Why is "conspicuous" capitalized?
    • Heh, no reason at all - fixed!
  • Between the wars, "and came the day Pentland". Is this common Aussie phrasing?
    • It's certainly phrasing I've seen before in books (I don't know about Australian per se).
      • Interesting. It's not a phrasing I've ever seen before - "there came a day" yes, "came a day" no. But if it's used by scholars, then I guess it's just an American ignorance thing!
  • Lead, "goldfields", Between the wars, "gold fields"
    • Tks - made consistent.
  • World War II and later life, " was perhaps the oldest operational pilot" (also repeated in the lead). Do they not know for sure?
    • The exact prhasing in the official history is "probably the oldest", so it doesn't appear they know for sure. I could quote the wording precisely, but I thought that was overdoing it since I have other quotes from the history in there already.
      • Fair enough.

Overall this looks like a great article. Once the above are resolved, I look forward to supporting! Dana boomer (talk) 01:52, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Tks for review, Dana. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 02:14, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My comments have been resolved to my satisfaction, so I am changing to a support. Ian, thank you for the prompt responses, and I apologize for not getting back to this last night when you first responded. Dana boomer (talk) 23:50, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Is there any particular reason why 1914-15 Star, British War Medal, and Victory Medal are not listed in info box under awards?

Regardless of above comment, I Support. Georgejdorner (talk) 05:08, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Tks for review/support, George. Standard practice is to only list honours/decorations in the infobox, not service/campaign medals. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:14, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, Ian, I'll try to remember that little detail in my own writing.

Georgejdorner (talk) 16:37, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support No problems with alt text or dab links. Two external links are blue lit, please check and advise. Otherwise, it looks good. TomStar81 (Talk) 22:39, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Tks Tom - yep, those links are definitely good, we Aussies use them all the time for WWI bios so must be a temporary aberration. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:05, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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