Help talk:IPA/Welsh

English equivalents

Wouldn't it be a good idea to have a column of "nearest English equivalents" as do some of the other IPA pages e.g. Wikipedia:IPA for French? This could be adapted from the examples in the Welsh orthography article. --Dr Greg (talk) 20:43, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes. That's a good idea. You should do it. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 21:53, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Good luck, you'll need it. Especially for the vowels. (There is a reason I didn't do a "nearest English equivalents" column to begin with.) +Angr 12:28, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

I've made my own attempt at this, concurrently with Angr, which got held up when the website seemed to crash earlier today. Rather than overwrite the current version I've saved mine at User:Dr Greg/IPA for Welsh. I suffer from the disadvantage I don't speak Welsh, so my version is a copy-&-paste from several sources, mostly Wikipedia:IPA for English, where available, or Welsh orthography if not. I also consulted Wikipedia:IPA and wikibooks:Welsh/Pronunciation.

Unfortunately the sources I consulted failed to distinguish between some dipthongs, and there are a few entries I found nothing for at all.

So I'd invite anyone who is fluent in both Welsh and English to compare my version with the current version and decide how best to merge them.

By the way, this article hasn't been categorised yet! --Dr Greg (talk) 16:40, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

It's not an article, it's in Wikipedia: namespace. It could still be categorized, but it shouldn't be in the same categories as articles, I think. +Angr 22:53, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Disputed examples

I've got reservations about some of these examples:

dʒ diawl, garej just

I most certainly wouldn't pronounce "diawl" with a "j" sound, it's roughly "dee-owl", also

m̥ fy mhen, cymharu wormhole

Cymharu (to compare) is spelt c y m h a r u, not c y mh a r u and is pronounced as three syllables with the first two breaking between the m and the h. -- Arwel Parry (talk) 00:12, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Clwyd

Pronunciation has been requested for Clwyd. Am I right that it's [ˈklʊɨd]? Lfh (talk) 14:21, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Looks right to me. +Angr 14:27, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

[ˈklʊˑɨd] and [ˈklʊid] would be better representations for north and south pronunciations respectively. Is it a good idea to include both pronunciations in all articles that have [ɨ/ɪ], seeing as there is no one standard pronunciation for both in Welsh? Llusiduonbach (talk) 11:58, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Pontarddulais

Could someone please fix the Welsh/English IPA at Pontarddulais, and/or add the English if they know it. Thanks Lfh (talk) 17:10, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Llyn Efyrnwy

Llyn Efyrnwy - [ɛˈvərnʊɨ]? Lfh (talk) 21:17, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Looks right to me. +Angr 07:04, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Caersws

[kɑːɨrˈsuːs]? (Sorry for the repetitive theme, but I like to be sure.) Lfh (talk) 14:20, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

My first guess would be [ˈkɑːɨrsʊs], but I don't know for sure. +Angr 18:09, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

If you're currently going through a specificic body of Welsh articles to give IPA, you could do them all at once and have someone like Angr look through them afterwards. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 19:10, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

OK, but I think that's pretty much it anyway. I'll just tag Caersws as needing IPA. I've only heard it from BBC football announcers, in English, who stress the second syllable. Thanks Lfh (talk) 16:41, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, there are Welsh words that are stressed on the final syllable, but they're not common. What's more common is that Welsh words sound to English speakers like they're stressed on the final syllable, because in Welsh, the final syllable of the word is associated with a high pitch (whether it's stressed or not), and that high pitch sounds to English speakers like stress. So maybe Caersws is stressed on the final syllable, but maybe English speakers just think it is. +Angr 19:51, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

I knew stress was tricky in Welsh. Good thing I asked, I guess. If I do find anymore that need some pronunciation fixing I think I'll just tag them. Lfh (talk) 20:12, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

sound file for 'll'

Do we think the recording here is ok to link to this guide? Or would that set an unwieldy precedent vis-a-vis the fact that most IPA projects have opted not to have sound links? Lfh (talk) 11:16, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

I've added a link to the article Voiceless alveolar lateral fricative; the sound file can be found there. That's probably enough, don't you think? +Angr 12:32, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that's probably better actually. Thanks. Lfh (talk) 13:19, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm no expert on IPA, but... (sound of 'y')

Can't say I'm familiar with IPA, but Welsh is my first language. I edited the English sounding equivalent for 'y' from 'about' to 'the', but the edit was reversed, with the comment "the varies in pronunciation depending on context". That's a fair point, but to say that 'y' as in ysgrifenyddes sounds like the 'a' in about is way off. Can someone suggest a better one? Or is it the IPA symbol itself ə that's incorrect in the first place?--Rhyswynne (talk) 22:33, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

The word the is either pronounced so that it has the same vowel as about or the same vowel as see. If about isn't a good example, I don't know if any English word would be and we can peg this as an approximation. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 23:17, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Rhyswynne, your user page says you're from near Denbigh, so I assume you speak Northern Welsh. If you came from northern Pembrokeshire, I could understand your saying that the "y"s in ysgrifenyddes are nothing like the "a" in "about", because in northern Pembrokeshire, "y" is always pronounced like "i", so the word sounds like "isgrifeniddes". But you're not from there, so that can't be the explanation. What about the word "buttock"? Do the "y"s in "ysgrifenyddes" sound like either of the vowels in that word? +Angr 08:22, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

While the Pembrokshire accent is quite unique, I don't agree that people from Pembrokshire (or anywhere) pronounce ysgrifenyddes as isgrifeniddes, but buttock is certainly a much better example. I'm changing it now.--Rhyswynne (talk) 09:06, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

It's not all of Pembrokeshire, it's just in Pencaer and the areas around Croes-goch and Puncheston. And they don't pronounced all "y"s like "i"s; sometimes they pronounce "y" like (Welsh) "w". Examples (taken from Pembrokeshire Welsh: A Phonological Study by G. M. Awbery, ISBN 0-8545-060-0) include ysgol 'school' pronounced "isgol", cryfach 'stronger' pronounced "crifach", ceffylau 'horses' pronounced "ceffile", llyfr 'book' pronounced "llifir" (and llyfrau pronounced "llifre"); bygwth 'to threaten' pronounced "bwgwth", dyrni 'to thresh' pronounced "dwrni", and ffasiynol 'fashionable' pronounced "fassiwnol". But the point is that this area of Pembroke doesn't have the /ə/ sound at all. +Angr 10:20, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

English-speakers learning Welsh (e.g. me, though not very much and a long time ago) are often taught to map Welsh /ə/ onto English /ʌ/ [as in "butter"], aren't they? I've seen this advice in books, and John C. Wells also recommended it on his blog, pointing out that English-speakers who map Welsh /ə/ onto English /ə/ end up saying things like [ˈkʊmɹi] ["koom-ree"]. (Can find the link if necessary.) I have also seen y transcribed as both [ʌ] and [ɐ] on Wikipedia. Lfh (talk) 09:14, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

But surely the purpose of the entry in the table is not how to pronounce "y" in Welsh, it's to give examples in Welsh and English of how to pronounce /ə/? The first syllable of "butter" is definitely wrong (the second syllable is correct). (That's a fact about IPA and English and has nothing to do with Welsh.) I don't speak Welsh, so I can't comment whether "ysgrifenyddes" is a valid example of /ə/ or not. -- Dr Greg  talk  19:08, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

You've got to keep in mind that the same symbol used in two different languages or dialects can be different sounds. To Rhyswynne's ears at least, the first syllable of butter sounds closer. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 19:50, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Dr Greg - you can listen to the Welsh /ə/ at Wales (the second sound file).

Does anyone know what the teaching materials say? Another option is to say "between about and butter". Lfh (talk) 19:56, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Describing a vowel as "between" two other vowels is never useful to non-linguists. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 20:26, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Maybe not. But it's been done at e.g. the Catalan and Hindi/Urdu keys, which is what made me think of it. Lfh (talk) 20:39, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate different dialects or accents have different pronunciations, but if the general consensus is that "ysgrifenyddes" sounds like "butter", you should be using /ʌ/ instead of /ə/. Isn't the whole point of IPA that it provides a language-independent guide? To pronounce something written in IPA, you shouldn't need to know whether it's English, Welsh, French or whatever, the pronunciation should be encoded in the IPA symbols. Shouldn't it? -- Dr Greg  talk  20:42, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Actually, IPA transcriptions pretty much have to be language-dependent; the symbols don't exist in a vacuum. Using the symbol "ʌ" to represent the sound of "butter" is a convention of English phonetic transcription; that sound isn't actually terribly close to the "ideal" pronunciation of [ʌ] as a cardinal vowel of the IPA. +Angr 20:53, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

'y' again

The Welsh hills and mountains seem to have been systematically written with [ɐ] rather than [ə] for "y" (e.g. Penycloddiau, Mynydd Bodafon), and also with [æ] for [a]. Could these be changed automatically with AWB or something like that? Lfh (talk) 14:24, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

No /y/ for "u"?

I can't see any example for the vowel u, which I've always heard as either /y/ or (rarely) /ɨ/. Is this an oversight? — OwenBlacker (Talk) 17:19, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

I've never seen a description of Welsh that says u is pronounced as /y/. Everything I've read says it's /ɨ/ in North Welsh and /i/ in South Welsh. It may have been /ʉ/ in Middle Welsh. +Angr 20:40, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

The examples here for u are punt and llun. You can hear it in the word Cymru on the Wales page, where it's given as [ɨ]. Lfh (talk) 14:03, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Talking of u - is it long or short in munud? Lfh (talk) 18:01, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

I think the first one is long in the south and short in the north, and the second one is short everywhere. +Angr 14:48, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

They're both short, both in north and south Wales, despite the spelling. In the south you sometimes hear muned [ˈmɪnˑɛd] as opposed to munud [ˈmɪnˑɪd].Llusiduonbach (talk) 11:50, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau

The IPA at Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau could do with some attention (stress and vowels in Wlad). Lfh (talk) 16:34, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Penysarn

I've added this name on request - [pɛnəˈsarn]. Please correct if necessary. Lfh (talk) 16:32, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Penysarn#Name says the ‹y› is silent, which suggests [ˈpɛnsarn] or [pɛnˈsarn]. +Angr 16:50, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

You're right. I read that sentence, but somehow managed to miss its significance entirely, in that peculiar way the brain sometimes behaves. I'll scratch the IPA for now, and ask the OP. Lfh (talk) 17:09, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Diphthongs

How about this for a reworked diphthongs table?

Diphthongs
IPA (north Wales)	IPA (south Wales)	Examples	English equivalents
ai	ai	tai
aɨ	ai	cau
aˑɨ	ai	cae
au	au	llaw
eˑu	ɛu	llew
ɛi	ɛi	Seisnig
ɛɨ	ɛi	gwneud, haeddu
ɛu	ɛu	tewi
ɪu	ɪu	lliw
ɨ̞u	ɪu	Duw, menyw
oˑɨ	ɔi	coed
ɔi	ɔi	osgoi
ɔɨ	ɔi	coeden
ɔu	ɔu	osgowch
uˑɨ	ʊi	gŵyl
ʊɨ	ʊi	mwya

Some thoughts:

• I need to add English 'equivalents' of course.
• Because the north has more vowel distinctions than southern varieties (short or long vowels in diphthongs, the presence of /ɨ/) I feel the need to separate the two, as does Peter Wynn Thomas in his authoritative Gramadeg y Gymraeg.
• I need to add /əi əɨ əu/ maybe, though I think too much prominence is given to these on Wikipedia. The modern realisations are [ɛi ɛɨ ɛu] by most, though the [ə]-initial diphthongs are preserved by a few speakers, and in formal singing, although this is changing. [əu] occurs in, e.g., bywyd [ˈbəuɨ̞d ˈbəuɪd] although I'd prefer to analyse this as [ˈbəwɨ̞d ˈbəwɪd]. In fact, I'd prefer to analyse any diphthongs ending in [i u] as ending in [j w] as I remember J C Wells says is perfectly acceptable in one of his books (can't remember which sorry, haven't got it). This would make more sense (I think) when discussing half-long consonants and vowels in stressed multisyllabic words in the traditional accent, e.g. cf. Hwntw, blinder, tonnau, tonau, gwledydd as roughly north-westeren: [ˈhʊntˑu ˈblɪndˑɛr ˈtɔnˑa ˈtɔnˑa ˈgʷledˑɪð (see next point), southern (accents with semi-long vowels): [ˈhʊntˑu ˈblɪnˑdɛr ˈtɔnˑɛ ˈtoˑnɛ ˈgleˑdɪð], therefore, e.g. lleiaf, cawod as [ˈɬɛjˑa ˈkawˑod]. This does, however, present the problem of trascribing the semi-vowel equivalent to [ɨ]. If [i] has [j], and [u] has [w], what would [ɨ] have? I'm sure someone with a better understanding of phonetics/phonology/IPA than me could come up with the correct symbol. [j̙] maybe?
• Re [ˈgʷledˑɪð] I guess I need to include examples of when ⟨y⟩ doesn't represent /ɨ/ in final position, but rather /i/ on Welsh orthography. (Sorry, this is a note to self.)
• I don't think I've ever seen it transcribed, but do /iˑu ɨˑu/ exist in north Wales? Any Gogs (northerners) about?

Llusiduonbach (talk) 13:58, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Re /əi/ etc. vs. /ɛi/: as always on Wikipedia, this has to be backed up with reliable, published sources rather than personal observation. I've always seen these diphthongs transcribed with ə, but if newer sources use ɛ, it can be mentioned at Welsh phonology and possibly represented here (depending on how widespread the new transliteration is). Angr (talk) 22:34, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Yep, you're right, it'd be a good idea to look up what the most recent studies say (though, sadly, the research on Welsh today, in Wales at least, seems to be more literature- rather than linguistic-based). Thomas gives /ɛ ə/ at least equal weight when writing /ɛi əi/ and /ɛɨ əɨ/ in Gramadeg y Gymraeg (1996, based on the research presented in Cymraeg, Cymrâg, Cymrêg in 1989) and Griffiths has the same in Geiriadur yr Academi (1995). A side observation is that adult learners of Welsh are also taught the pronunciations [ɛi ɛɨ] in classes and their learning materials, e.g. Meek in the WJEC's Cwrs Mynediad (2005) has "eu, ei and ey as in the English say". How about:

Diphthongs
IPA (north Wales)	IPA (south Wales)	Examples	English equivalents
ɛi əi	ɛi əi	Seisnig
ɛɨ əɨ	ɛi əi	gwneud, haeddu

Llusiduonbach (talk) 12:36, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Watkins, in his chapter on Welsh in The Celtic Languages (ed. Ball, 1993), sets out the diphthongs of Welsh as the following, without even acknowledging [əi əɨ]:

1. /-ɨ/: ei [ei], ai [ai], oi [oi]

2. /-i/: ey [eɨ], ei [eɨ], au [aɨ], ae [aɨ], oi [oɨ], wy [uɨ]

3. /-u/: iw [iu], ew [eu], aw [au], ow [ou], yw [ɨu], yw [əu], uw [ɨu]

He then goes on to explain long initial vowels in northern pronunciation.

So that would make the table:

Diphthongs
IPA (north Wales)	IPA (south Wales)	Examples	English equivalents
ai	ai	tai
aɨ	ai	cau
aˑɨ	ai	cae
au	au	llawr
aˑu	au	llaw
eˑu	ɛu	llew
əu	əu	bywyd
ɛi əi	ɛi əi	Seisnig
ɛɨ əɨ	ɛi əi	gwneud, haeddu, teyrnas
ɛu	ɛu	tewi
ɪu	ɪu	lliw
ɨu	ɪu	Duw, menyw
oˑɨ	ɔi	coed
ɔi	ɔi	osgoi
ɔɨ	ɔi	coeden, cyffrous, gloywi
ɔu	ɔu	osgowch
uˑɨ	ʊi	llwy
ʊɨ	ʊi	mwya

Llusiduonbach (talk) 13:21, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

One other thing: how are using the symbol "ˑ"? To indicate a syllable boundary? Are you saying that cae, llaw, and llew are two syllables in Northern Welsh? Angr (talk) 17:40, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

[ˑ] indicates a half-long vowel. Thomas uses this symbol, but some (like Watkins) have [ː], i.e. a long vowel. The first element of some northern diphthongs is longer in open syllables. [.] is a syllable break. Llusiduonbach (talk) 21:44, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Contrast between Northern and Southern dialect vowels

I've been looking over this and comparing it to the Welsh phonology page. Apparently /ɨ̞/ and /ɨː/ only occur in the Northern dialect, where they're replaced by /ɪ/ and /iː/ in the Southern dialect, respectively. However on this page, it has the vowels side by side representing two completely different sets of typographical values, u's and y's, and i's, again respectively, making in my mind the image that these vowels in actuality represent distinct typographical values and don't interchange. Could someone possibly elaborate on the differences between these two pages? - Znex (talk) 04:42, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't see a contradiction. In Northern Welsh, i=/ɪ, iː/ and y/u=/ɨ̞, ɨː/; in Southern Welsh, i/y/u=/ɪ, iː/. That's your basic phonemic merger. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ]} 13:55, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Ah, okay. Thanks! - Znex (talk) 21:10, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

'll' English approximation

In my opinion there is no English approximation for this sound and saying it is "Roughly like please" is worse than just saying "No English approximation, see <insert link to description/sound file>", seeing as it isn't really anything like 'please' and in my experience Welsh-speakers (rightly) don't really like it when people use it like that. Thoughts? Young trotsky (talk) 21:51, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

I've seen descriptions of the ll as being similar to some English speakers' inability to pronounce an s properly; a lisp. Perhaps that could be the approximation? - Znex (talk) 02:59, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, maybe, I've never heard it like that though. Does it have to have an English approximation? It seems unnecessary and more likely to cause mis-pronunciation. Young trotsky (talk) 20:56, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

There is no approximation for LL in English. The best description I've managed to come up with is that it's like an unvoiced L, so you put your tongue in the right place to say L, but you blow air around the sides instead. I've seen it described as similar to CL, CHL, and THL, but all of these are simply wrong. This is the first time I've seen the idea that it's like the L in please, but anyone taking that advice would really struggle to say llyfrgell, for example. Is it supposed to be plyfrgepl? It would be much better to use an instructive sound file if there is one, or failing that, just someone saying LL properly. --SuwCA (talk) 13:50, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

I've removed the sentence and changed it to read "No equivalent in English" — OwenBlacker (Talk) 15:20, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Would it be appropriate to add a special section on LL to explain how one can derive the correct - or at least an approximation to the correct - pronunciation? --SuwCA (talk) 21:07, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Not really necessary. Just click on the ɬ symbol and it will take to the article on the sound, which provides plenty of information and, I believe, a sound file. Angr (talk) 22:59, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Rh

The pronunciation for the letter rh might be simplified by pointing out its similarity to the wh in English when. It is, from my experience, the same effect, but with the w replaced by a trilled r. Cwbr77 (talk) 13:19, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

The problem with that is that most English speakers don't have a voiceless wh anymore, but pronounce which identically to witch. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:57, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Iwan Rheon

I'd like to add the transcription for the name of the actor Iwan Rheon. Is [ˈiwan ˈr̥eːɔn] correct? Also, I'm not sure which vowel (between [ɪ] and [i]) the i represents in this name, as the page Iwan (name) gives the transcription [ˈi.wan], while the vowel table here transcribes iw as [ɪu]. -GazetoBic (talk) 23:43, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

It's [ɪ]. Using the system on this page you'd get [ˈɪuan ˈr̥ɛɔn], but with that slight change, yours [ˈɪwan ˈr̥eːɔn] is totally acceptable too. Llusiduonbach (talk) 09:06, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Thank you very much. Does the alternation between [ɛ] and [eː] have anything to do with the dialects or the standard usage? -GazetoBic (talk) 01:44, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Help talk:IPA which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 16:18, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Use of "Whispered" or "Unvoiced"

For the sounds /m̥/, /n̥/, /ŋ̊/ and /r̥/, is there a good reason that most of the English approximations don't simply use the word "voiceless", or, better still, "whispered"? The vast majority of English speakers would struggle to interpret "No equivalent in English. Approximately like wormhole", while "whispered /m/", or even "loud whispered /m/" is a description that is more specific and easy to interpret, even for a non-linguist.—AlphaMikeOmega (talk) 21:48, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Unlisted sound entry

The page Culhwch has a pronunciation using the IPA symbols "ʉ", linking to this IPA/Welsh page. However, there is no such sound listed, nor any general rule such as "letters shown with a line through them mean thus-and-so". As a result, the pronunciation listed doesn't teach anything. - 98.29.142.35 (talk) 05:14, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

[ʉ] is a valid IPA symbol, but it represents a sound that doesn’t exist in modern Welsh. (It’s similar to the vowel in North Welsh llun, but with a rounded lip position.) I don’t know what the correct transcription of Culhwch would be, but the letter ⟨u⟩ usually stands for /ɨ/ or /ɨː/. Can anyone fix this? Stanaita (talk) 08:54, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Fixed. —Mahāgaja · talk 11:02, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

aː

I think that consensus needs to be established regarding how best to convey this sound. Currently, what we have is the 'a' in 'father', but this corresponds to /ɑː/, which doesn't occur in Welsh. It is therefore not a good comparison at all.

Maybe it would be more useful to appeal to a different language, that is, not English. For example, the 'a' in 'madre' [Spanish], but held for longer.

The logic given for reverting my edits for /aː/ being /a/ but held for longer is that the long vowel is realised in many accents as /æ/. This does not make sense, as the same logic would surely apply then to /a/. In Welsh, the only difference between these vowels is length, not quality. 2A00:23C7:7C9B:AB01:181B:4B17:AC6F:6D12 (talk) 14:37, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

the same logic would surely apply then to /a/ But TRAP is at least short, so it's one degree closer. Some other keys have used a word pronounced with /æ/ in the UK but /ɑ/ in the US for [ä], like pasta. So how about pasta for [a] and "pasta but long" for [aː]? Nardog (talk) 14:42, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

I think that is a good suggestion, and takes the uninitiated reader closer to the Welsh pronunciation. 2A00:23C7:7C9B:AB01:181B:4B17:AC6F:6D12 (talk) 15:02, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm a native English speaker who initially read pasta as /ˈpæstə/ and it took me a bit to figure out. Would it be fine to put the pronunciation of ambiguous approximations in the table? Such as: "pasta (/ˈpɑːstə/) but longer". 68.146.104.10 (talk) 01:21, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

If you pronounce pasta with /æ/ the chances are its quality is closer to [ä] than is your /ɑː/, so I don't think so. Nardog (talk) 07:22, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Dipthongs and their transcriptions

You will also see that in the article on dipthongs the following sentence:

"The non-syllabic diacritic, the inverted breve below ⟨◌̯⟩, is placed under the less prominent part of a diphthong to show that it is part of a diphthong rather than a vowel in a separate syllable: [aɪ̯ aʊ̯]".

This convention is widely used on Wiktionary for IPA transcriptions of Welsh words, and in it very useful in fully conveying that dipthongs are indeed a combination of vowels which are realised as one syllable, as opposed to two separately sounded vowels. This is especially pertinent in Welsh, as in its orthography it is not particularly uncommon to come across two adjacent vowels which are sounded separately and not as a dipthong, such as in caeedig (/kai̯ˈɛdɪɡ/) or dealledig (/deːaɬˈɛdɪɡ/).

It would be useful therefore for this article to include a breve in the dipthong section, such as /au̯/, /ei̯/ etc. 2A00:23C7:7C81:9001:79E4:CC96:47BF:D694 (talk) 18:10, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

The non-syllabic diacritic is omitted more often than not in most IPA transcriptions. Are you familiar with any dictionary or scholarly source that regularly employs it for Welsh? And is there a situation where a hiatus contrasts with a diphthong with the same components (when transcribed)? And even if so, we can still use the syllable break ⟨.⟩, which is more commonly seen. Nardog (talk) 01:27, 12 February 2024 (UTC)