Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Islam-related articles/God vs Allah
"Allah" and "God" Debate
[edit]- God-Allah and God-Jehova are not the same. (God in the english Bible should be Jehova in the KJV is Lord) - Allah does not have a son. God has a Son which He sent as a sarifice for salvation of the world. - Allah saves by works which then are put on a balance and if you did enough good works then you'll be save; notwithstanding your good works, you'll never be sure if you are saved. God's salvation is by faith through the grace of God not by works. - Allah will take those who make it to a paradise. God will take those who accept His Son's sacrifice at the cross for salvation to heaven. There is no standardization needed to be made. There is Allah and there is God. You choose which one you want to beleive in the Allah of the Quran or the God of the Bible.
Can we make decisions regarding how we can standardize the use of the words of "Allah" and "God" in articles. I've seen so many edits changing words to the other or putting something like "Allah (God)" and "God (Allah)." Personally, I don't really care either way, but it would be nice if we could choose one standard. BhaiSaab talk 04:29, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
- I have been consistently using God, and changing Allah to God. Cuñado
- Talk 04:49, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
- This is a tricky one. I suppose it could be argued that God be used because everyone will know what that means and the God article mentions Allah anyway. The problem is made worse because the etymology of the word God is unclear. I prefer to use Allah, as it is unambiguous and carries Islamic connotations of a creator (which is what is needed in Islam articles) rather than just God. The two are definitely not synonymous (God can mean Allah, but it can mean many other things too, but Allah is a unique term and doesn't refer to any of the 'gods' of other religions) and this must be made clear. In conclusion: I propose to use Allah. MP (talk) 08:18, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
- God, definitly. The last thing the enlish reader needs is Isa instead of Jesus and Allah instead of God. --Striver 19:09, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
- I am sorry but Allah is technically more correct. One of the things is that they are they same person, but details vary from the religions. God refers to the father of Christianity, of Jesus, one part of the Trinity. Allah, however, is not a father, but a hermaphodite (I hope I spelled that right :)), having no gender. Allah is not the father of anyone, but humanity itself. And while we're at it, please don't refer to the Devil under Islam as "the Devil", "lucifer", "Satan", or anything else. It's Iblis, they are actually two different people, Iblis is a jinn, the Devil is a fallen angel (if I remember my Mythology 101 correct). Arabic Pilot 01:47, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
- "God refers to the father of Christianity" is false, see God. -- Striver 01:50, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
- Woops, you got me there, my mistake. Sorry (stone the noob!)Arabic Pilot 03:21, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
- "God refers to the father of Christianity" is false, see God. -- Striver 01:50, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
- I am sorry but Allah is technically more correct. One of the things is that they are they same person, but details vary from the religions. God refers to the father of Christianity, of Jesus, one part of the Trinity. Allah, however, is not a father, but a hermaphodite (I hope I spelled that right :)), having no gender. Allah is not the father of anyone, but humanity itself. And while we're at it, please don't refer to the Devil under Islam as "the Devil", "lucifer", "Satan", or anything else. It's Iblis, they are actually two different people, Iblis is a jinn, the Devil is a fallen angel (if I remember my Mythology 101 correct). Arabic Pilot 01:47, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
- God, definitly. The last thing the enlish reader needs is Isa instead of Jesus and Allah instead of God. --Striver 19:09, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
- This is a tricky one. I suppose it could be argued that God be used because everyone will know what that means and the God article mentions Allah anyway. The problem is made worse because the etymology of the word God is unclear. I prefer to use Allah, as it is unambiguous and carries Islamic connotations of a creator (which is what is needed in Islam articles) rather than just God. The two are definitely not synonymous (God can mean Allah, but it can mean many other things too, but Allah is a unique term and doesn't refer to any of the 'gods' of other religions) and this must be made clear. In conclusion: I propose to use Allah. MP (talk) 08:18, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Hello Arabic Pilot. A hermaphrodite is a creature that has both male and female sex organs, so describing Allah as a hermaphrodite (af!) is wrong. However, you were correct to say that Allah has no gender. Thanks. :) MP (talk) 14:26, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
So far I think we have more support for "God." BhaiSaab talk 21:13, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, I also support "God." --Aminz 21:16, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I've been consistently changing Allah to God except in the article Allah. I am wondering if you guys know David Khairallah? -- Szvest 21:18, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
This debate was briefly discussed on the Halal Talk Page. Look it over if you wish. It is a confirmed fact that "Allah" is not idential to "God". The article on Allah very adequately states "...Allah is associated with Islam, and is used to refer specifically to the Islamic concept of God." On the other hand and according to the article on God, "Concepts of God can vary widely, despite the use of the same term for them all, and these conceptual differences are the fundamental distinctions between various religious definitions."
When an editor uses the word "God", he is interpreting/concluding that the source he is citing refers to the universal concept of God. When an editor uses the word "Allah", he is interpreting/concluding that the source he is citing refers specifically to the Islamic concept of God. Either way, I think there is a NPOV issue, because very understandably, most (all?) sources don't have a footnote at the bottom indicating which meaning they intended.
When directly quoting sources, I think the original wording should be maintained. When direct quotes aren't being used, but the choice of whether "Allah" or "God" must be made, I hold the opinion that generally, MOST sources refer to the Islamic concept of God and thus, "Allah" should be used to prevent ambiguity.
I have no proof for this assumption. Like I said before, using "Allah" is interpreting the source in one way and inserting a POV, and the same goes with using "God". I believe using Allah is correct more often than using God. All in good faith(pun unintended).Starwarp2k2 06:22, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
- Starwarp2k2, I do agree that we can not change Allah to God in the Qur'anic or Hadith quotes. Just in the wikipedia text. Also the academic sources on Islam do use the word "God". The conception of God among Christians and Jews is different but those article use the same word. I think the context of the article makes the meaning clear though. Also, "Allah" is not an Islamic word actually. It is just an Arabic word for God. Arabic Bibles use that word to refer to God. So, some have argued that in the English Encyclopedia, we should not use it. --Aminz 06:31, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
- I agree that reading "God" in the context of an Islam related article imples the Islamic definition of God, more commonly referred to as Allah. But I still support using the word Allah to prevent any chance of ambiguity. If God is used, there is a chance that the general definition of God may be assumed by the reader, while if Allah is used, any chance of ambiguity is eliminated.
- Point noted that in the strictest definition of the word, Allah is the Arabic equivalent of God. "Allah is the Arabic term for "God" in Abrahamic religions, and is the main term for the deity in Islam" reads the article on Allah. Yet, I don't think that the English Encyclopedia argument is valid because although strictly speaking, Allah = Arabic for God, the more common usage is the second one, in reference to the diety of Islam. Thanks for your input!Starwarp2k2 06:46, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
- Starwarp2k2, Thanks for your input as well. How is it to use the word "Allah" when there is a chance of ambiguity but use "God" otherwise? --Aminz 07:43, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
- It solves the problem of ambiguity, but the catch is that an article can contain both "God" and "Allah" in different places, and the problem of non-uniformity we were trying to solve is no longer really solved. And if the policy states "Generally you should use God, but where there can be ambiguity, use Allah ", that gets us no where, right? If that policy is adopted, editors now have to sit down and determine whether each reference to God/Allah is ambigous or not, making life unnecessarily difficult.Starwarp2k2 19:29, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
- I strongly object to use Allah, it might, might be usefull for disambig, but it even more so adds to the inaccurate missconseption that Muslims belive in their own God, not the God of Israel and Abraham. I also strongly object to the quote thing, if true, then lets be consitent and change every Jesus quote around to "Alah" (sic), the word for God in Jesus native tongue. --Striver 10:30, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
- Dissagreeing on the color of a car does not make it two different cars. --Striver 10:31, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
- I'll address the quote issue first. I believe it is wikipedia policy not to alter a direct quote from an external source. So when quoting, the original wording must be maintained, regadless of whether they use "Allah" or "God". Maybe I interpreted your point incorrectly?
- Also, I don't beleieve it is the job of every page mentioning Allah to pre-emptively account for the misunderstanding some people may have. That is a clarification that should be, and is made, on the Allah page.
- If I talk about the "Toyota" or "Toyota Camry", I can be referring to two different cars, but can also be referring to the same car. Would you not prefer that I use "Toyota Camry" to prevent you from think about the Toyota Sienna, one of which is a sedan and the other a minivan?Starwarp2k2 18:19, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
- Regarding quotes: If we are quoting a translations, the the nothing must be altered, but if we are quoting another language, and the translation we are using happens to not translate "Allah", then we are free to do so, since we are not bound by any particual tranlation. Please remeber that "Allah" is not a Islam-only word, it is a arabic word. Arabic Jews, Christians and Atheist use "Allah". Pre-Islamic arabia used "Allah". It is simply wrong to equate it with the Islamic consept of God, no matter what people in the west think. --Striver 19:59, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
- I don't understand your point in the quoting issue. Can you please explain a bit more?
- It is true, and I mentioned this above in response to Aminz, that Allah does not (and has not) always concretely refered to the Islamic concept of God. But in everyday usage in the English language, it does.Starwarp2k2 20:31, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
- If a tranlations inclues "Allah", it should not be changed if the aim is to quote the translation, but it should be changed if the aim is to quote the Arabic. --Striver 21:42, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
- So according to this, if I were to quote a website which is citing the Quran itself, should I replace "Allah" with "God" if the website uses the former?Starwarp2k2 01:06, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
- If you are quoting the website, no, if you are quoting the Qur'an, yes.--Striver 02:52, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
- I disagree, for the reason that the Quran most definately refers to the Islamic definition of God(more commonly known as Allah), rather than just "God".Starwarp2k2 04:46, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
- So according to this, if I were to quote a website which is citing the Quran itself, should I replace "Allah" with "God" if the website uses the former?Starwarp2k2 01:06, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
- If a tranlations inclues "Allah", it should not be changed if the aim is to quote the translation, but it should be changed if the aim is to quote the Arabic. --Striver 21:42, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
- Regarding quotes: If we are quoting a translations, the the nothing must be altered, but if we are quoting another language, and the translation we are using happens to not translate "Allah", then we are free to do so, since we are not bound by any particual tranlation. Please remeber that "Allah" is not a Islam-only word, it is a arabic word. Arabic Jews, Christians and Atheist use "Allah". Pre-Islamic arabia used "Allah". It is simply wrong to equate it with the Islamic consept of God, no matter what people in the west think. --Striver 19:59, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Regarding "Toyota Camry" vs "Toyota". Its not a anology of "Allah" vs "God", its a anology of "Islamic view of God" vs "God". --Striver 21:43, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
- For our purposes, and since we are dealing exclusively with "Islam-related articles", we can generalize Allah to mean the Islamic definition of God. That is the definition that is implied in the everyday usage of the term anyway. And then the analogy works perfectly.Starwarp2k2 01:06, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
- You just repeated your stance. No need for me to repeat mine.--Striver 02:52, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
- My argument stands as it is then, because you gave me no substantial point to issue a new response to. All in good faith and no hard feelings. I propose taking a poll regarding this issue.Starwarp2k2 04:46, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
- You just repeated your stance. No need for me to repeat mine.--Striver 02:52, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
- For our purposes, and since we are dealing exclusively with "Islam-related articles", we can generalize Allah to mean the Islamic definition of God. That is the definition that is implied in the everyday usage of the term anyway. And then the analogy works perfectly.Starwarp2k2 01:06, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
- Starwarp, western academics feel free to use the word "God" in their works; in books published in famous presses like "Oxford press". They even do say: "Prophet Muhammad" or "Jesus Christ". "God" and "Allah" don't pose any POV issue. So there is no problem from the academic and scholarly side or POV side. Moreover, other faith's articles do use the word God. Isn't it a bit unfair to compel Muslim editors who wish to use the word "God" to do so? If they wish to use "Allah", we can let them do so, but forcing them to use "Allah" is a bit unfair to my mind. You can see several Muslim editors who wish to use "God" because they feel people think they are worshiping a different god. It makes sense. Aside from these, there are translations of Qur'an that uses the word "God". Those scholars who didn't use the word "Allah" probably have had an argument in mind. --Aminz 05:33, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
- I propose settling the debate in the following manner: Islam-related articles use the word "God" wherever it occurs outside of quotes, but inside any quotation marks, the wording of the source must be maintained. Also, the first occurrance of "God" in the articles should be something to the effect of the following: "God (see Islamic concept of God)". I think this solution should be acceptable to all, given that "God" is used, and ambiguity is eliminated at the first mention. Seems fair to me. What do you think, esp. Striver and Aminz?Starwarp2k2 06:11, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
- Starwarp, western academics feel free to use the word "God" in their works; in books published in famous presses like "Oxford press". They even do say: "Prophet Muhammad" or "Jesus Christ". "God" and "Allah" don't pose any POV issue. So there is no problem from the academic and scholarly side or POV side. Moreover, other faith's articles do use the word God. Isn't it a bit unfair to compel Muslim editors who wish to use the word "God" to do so? If they wish to use "Allah", we can let them do so, but forcing them to use "Allah" is a bit unfair to my mind. You can see several Muslim editors who wish to use "God" because they feel people think they are worshiping a different god. It makes sense. Aside from these, there are translations of Qur'an that uses the word "God". Those scholars who didn't use the word "Allah" probably have had an argument in mind. --Aminz 05:33, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
- Good suggestion, I think. --Aminz 06:25, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
- Its wonderfull, im all for it. --Striver 11:52, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
- Good suggestion, I think. --Aminz 06:25, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
- By the way, i found a ancient story/interview [on google] that goes back to a period during the emergence of the islam. It seems that the Arabs had a polytheistic god called "Allah", if i understood/interpretted it correctly, and if the story is real [not a lie], i think this is supported by the Quran.
- But on the other hand, it is not very clear since the most people understand "Allah" as a synonymous of God. If this last tradition is correct, there is then no problem, because you are free to use the synonymous.Read3r 12:11, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, before emergance of Islam, the word "Allah" was used by Arab Christians and Jews to refer to "God" AND ALSO by pagan Arabs to refer to their highest god. The Qur'an of course, borrows this term and uses it in a very particular sense. And this is not only with word "Allah", but with too many other words. For example, I've heard that the word "taqwa" have had a different meaning before emergance of Islam; and so was the word "ayah". --Aminz 00:07, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
- Well now, remember the differences between Islam and, say, Christianity. In an Islam related article, would Allah be more correct? After all, according to each religion, their God's did not take the same exact action, and no matter what language you see a Muslim say it in, he/she will say Allah. English, French, Danish, or Arabic, this is one word that does not have translations. Simply refering to it as God can both add some level of confusion, as no Muslim texts refer to Allah as this, and "God" under the normalized-Christian sense was slightly different than "Allah" in the Islamic sense (sort of taking back to the "God is male and Allah is genderless" argument I made earlier). Take this for example: Allah is prohibited from being made an image of, much like the Islamic prophet Muhammad, while there are countless Christian depictions of God. I will admit that there is little that could be done to change my mind, but since so many people agree otherwise, I'm not bothered at all if Wikipedia uses God, I'm just stating my take on this. Arabic Pilot 22:33, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
"The most beautiful names belong to ALLAH, so call on Him by them…". ( 7 : 180 ) Al-Quran.
According to Quran it is Allah Himself selected that name not us.
Khalidkhoso 07:15, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
"Allah" and "God" Polls
[edit]Style
[edit]How about we always write "God (Arabic: الله)", and creat a template that we can subst? --Striver 02:49, 23 September 2006 (UTC) I am sorry but this is totally incorrect thank you and have a nice day. If you have any problems write me at cshingles1@yahoo.com
- I am for this, this seems more accurate in its portrayal of the Islamic Allah, and reader won't get confused. --Djihed 19:09, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
- I created {{Allah}}--Striver 20:33, 11 December 2006 (UTC)