Talk:Thomas Jefferson
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Thomas Jefferson article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43Auto-archiving period: 30 days |
Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated. Please read recent comments, look in the archives, and review the FAQ before commenting. |
This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
Thomas Jefferson was one of the History good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
Frequently asked questions Q1: I added something to the article but it got removed. Why?
A1: In all probability what you added was trivia, unsourced information or information cited to an unreliable source; such information is usually removed quickly. Articles on Wikipedia require reliable sources for an independent verification of the facts presented; consequently, any information added to an article without a reliable source is subject to removal from the article at any Wikipedian's discretion. Q2: I tried to edit this article but couldn't. Why?
A2:This article has been indefinitely semi-protected due to persistent vandalism or violations of content policy. Semi-protection prevents edits from anonymous users (IP addresses), as well as edits from any account that is not autoconfirmed (is at least four days old and has ten or more edits to Wikipedia) or confirmed. Such users can request edits to this article by proposing them on this talk page, using the {{edit semi-protected}} template if necessary to gain attention. Q3: I want to add some sourced information with references but don't understand the referencing style.
A3: This article's established referencing is a specific type of Harvard style citations, making use of anchored references, using the hashtag symbol to anchor the references to the cited sources. The nomenclature looks like:
<ref>[[#abc| Author name, 2000]], p.123</ref>...placed as an inline citation within the text, which then creates a shortened footnote in the References section. |
This level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This has been mentioned by multiple media organizations:
|
Inventions[edit]
The inventions section of this article is pretty inaccurate. Most of the inventions this article credits Jefferson with were not things that he invented but rather gadgets that he saw elsewhere and added to his house. For example, Jefferson did not invent the Great Clock he just designed the appearance of it. That's also the case with the swivel chair. Here is a page from Monticello that explains the difference between what Jefferson invented and the pre-existing technologies that he adopted or made improvements upon. https://www.monticello.org/thomas-jefferson/thomas-jefferson-and/jefferson-technology/#inventions 50.217.1.254 (talk) 16:19, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
Fluff in lead[edit]
There's multiple problems with the current lead that I attempted to improve.
First of all, the lead implies (albeit you can interpret it differently) that Jefferson's anti-Indian policies were a novum in American history up until that point.
That's completely wrong. Washington was labeled by the Iroquois as Hanödaga꞉nyas — which means "town destroyer" in the Seneca language. Many of the American Founding Fathers wanted to or actually did ethnically cleanse, forcefully assimilate, or war against Native Americans at least inside of what is now called the eastern part of the United States. Implying that Jefferson "started" the process of Indian removal is laughable and completely wrong. Most of the intellectual justification was already being developed far before he ever assumed the presidency. This belongs far more on the pages surrounding Martin Van Buren, William Henry Harrison, and other early American political figures, rather than Jefferson.
Jefferson was a slave owner, but condemned the slave trade in his draft of the Declaration of Independence and signed the Act Prohibiting Importation of Slaves in 1807.
Comes across as WP: PEACOCK to me. (I'd argue, as many historians on the matter do, that banning the import of slaves actually makes the current "supply" of them inherently more valuable.)
And I'd bet it's only used as a "balance" sentence to this:
Since the 1790s, he was rumored to have had children by his slave Sally Hemings; according to scholarly consensus, Jefferson probably fathered six children with Hemings
As historians have variously portrayed Jefferson as a hypocrite who never actually intended to end slavery, a revolutionary anti-slavery figure who made pragmatic compromises on the matter throughout his political career, or as an anti-slavery figure who gradually grew to accept and support the continuation of slavery towards the end of his life, as indicated by the Notes on the State of Virginia, I think it would be best if the two above sentences are removed and replaced with:
Scholars have radically differing opinions on his views and relationship with slavery.
Selectively quoting different aspects of his life where he took positions that could be classified as "anti-slavery" (Declaration of Independence, ban on importing slaves, private quotations) and "pro-slavery" (continued ownership of enslaved humans, relationship with Sally Hemmings, and so on) and having that take up an entire paragraph seems like massive bloat, considering that a majority of presidents before 1865 owned enslaved individuals at some point in their lives. KlayCax (talk) 00:16, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- Tagging @Anwegmann:. KlayCax (talk) 00:16, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- I also think that "libertarianism" should be removed from the lead. Whether Jefferson's actual thoughts on the matter could be classified as such is disputable at best.
- Almost every part of the American political spectrum (like the Founders in general) selectively quotes aspects of the Founding Fathers to justify their views. KlayCax (talk) 00:19, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- I would agree with trimming
Jefferson's writings have been used by proponents of libertarianism to argue in favor of natural rights and small government
from the lead. As KlayCax says, citing founding figures like Jefferson is common across the political spectrum and isn't sufficiently distinctive to libertarianism to justify elevating it to the lead—especially when it doesn't appear in the article anyhow. I've gone ahead and removed that sentence. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 17:11, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
- I would agree with trimming
- Wikipedia articles that use American English
- Delisted good articles
- Old requests for peer review
- Former good article nominees
- Wikipedia controversial topics
- B-Class vital articles
- Wikipedia level-4 vital articles
- Wikipedia vital articles in People
- B-Class level-4 vital articles
- Wikipedia level-4 vital articles in People
- B-Class vital articles in People
- B-Class biography articles
- B-Class biography (politics and government) articles
- Top-importance biography (politics and government) articles
- Politics and government work group articles
- B-Class biography (science and academia) articles
- Top-importance biography (science and academia) articles
- Science and academia work group articles
- B-Class biography (core) articles
- Core biography articles
- Top-importance biography articles
- WikiProject Biography articles
- B-Class Human rights articles
- High-importance Human rights articles
- WikiProject Human rights articles
- B-Class International relations articles
- Mid-importance International relations articles
- WikiProject International relations articles
- B-Class Philosophy articles
- Mid-importance Philosophy articles
- B-Class philosopher articles
- Mid-importance philosopher articles
- Philosophers task force articles
- B-Class Aesthetics articles
- Mid-importance Aesthetics articles
- Aesthetics task force articles
- B-Class social and political philosophy articles
- Mid-importance social and political philosophy articles
- Social and political philosophy task force articles
- B-Class philosophy of religion articles
- Mid-importance philosophy of religion articles
- Philosophy of religion task force articles
- B-Class Modern philosophy articles
- Mid-importance Modern philosophy articles
- Modern philosophy task force articles
- B-Class politics articles
- High-importance politics articles
- B-Class American politics articles
- Top-importance American politics articles
- American politics task force articles
- B-Class Libertarianism articles
- High-importance Libertarianism articles
- WikiProject Libertarianism articles
- WikiProject Politics articles
- B-Class United States articles
- Top-importance United States articles
- B-Class United States articles of Top-importance
- B-Class United States presidential elections articles
- Mid-importance United States presidential elections articles
- WikiProject United States presidential elections articles
- B-Class U.S. Presidents articles
- Top-importance U.S. Presidents articles
- WikiProject U.S. Presidents articles
- B-Class US State Legislatures articles
- Low-importance US State Legislatures articles
- WikiProject US State Legislatures articles
- B-Class United States Government articles
- High-importance United States Government articles
- WikiProject United States Government articles
- B-Class United States governors articles
- Mid-importance United States governors articles
- WikiProject United States governors articles
- WikiProject United States articles
- B-Class Virginia articles
- Top-importance Virginia articles
- B-Class University of Virginia articles
- Top-importance University of Virginia articles
- WikiProject University of Virginia articles
- WikiProject Virginia articles
- Articles copy edited by the Guild of Copy Editors
- Wikipedia pages referenced by the press