Category talk:Albums by producer

What constitutes "produced by"?

Given the proliferation of this category structure, some notion of what constitutes "produced by" needs to be determined. There has been one category recently deleted, for Bryan Adams, partially on the grounds that it included albums for which he was not the sole producer. A second CFD, for Category:Albums produced by Rick Rock, is up for deletion on similar grounds. Some of the albums in that category list as many as six producers, usually with no explanation of what contribution to the album was made by any particular one of them. That means potentially six produced by categories on a single album. My proposal is that the categories be expressly limited to albums with a single credited producer (or recognized producing team) and that articles with multiple credited producers be deemed ineligible for categorization on this basis. For an album with multiple producers, each producer's article can contain a discography that includes information on that person's work on each album. Otto4711 (talk) 21:32, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

• I don't know why we've started categorising by producer anyway. The category is a terrible way of presenting this information, given that you have to actually look at the article to find out who the artist is. And the name of the producer isn't even that important in most cases, I wouldn't have thought. Where it is important there's little point in making a category out of it - any producer worth their salt should already have a list (like the Neptunes, Albini). These lists aren't perfect but they're far more usable than the cats. I say we nuke the whole tree before it's too late. (Or is it too late?) Flowerparty^☀ 00:42, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

• I would have no problem whatsoever in listifying and deleting the lot of them. I don't believe that an album in most cases is defined by its producer (except in rare instances like Phil Spector's "Wall of Sound"). You are correct that there should already be a list in each producer's article. It's never too late to dismantle a category tree (we dismantled a number of sizable ones for such things as actors by TV series and the like) so, while this would be an enormous undertaking it's not impossible. Otto4711 (talk) 00:58, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

• I don't have a problem with using categories to navigate through albums by a producer. I think that many producers do have some effect on a record's sound, even if not so drastic as Phil Spector, and many less well-known producers have an even greater effect than he did.

My main problem is when a single song on an album, gets the album put into the albums produced by category. This is inaccurate, and I strongly feel it should stop. A secondary problem is when there are many producers, and each gets a category. This is an offshoot problem of the first one. Maybe someone has to have a hand in producing at least half the songs on an album, to be listed. This is also a notability sort of issue. One song produced by a barely notable producer, does not deserve categorization. Too bad WP:N doesn't apply to whether something can be categorized. -Freekee (talk) 02:09, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

• Not to go all WP:ALLORNOTHING, but how, other than categorizing those producers who did an entire album can any standard for inclusion be objective and non-arbitrary? Say we adopt the 50% rule. But what if we have a 10-song album with six songs by producer A and four by producer B and the four songs from producer B become monster smash hits and the six from producer A never become singles? It would be misleading to categorize that album as only being produced by A when it is the contributions of B that made the album a success. Otto4711 (talk) 22:21, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

• Judgement calls can always be made. But without such a guideline, people will add every album they can think of that has a single song that's produced by that producer (even compilation albums). Is that okay? -Freekee — Preceding unsigned comment added by Freekee (talk • contribs)

• I think that in some cases, it's pretty clear-cut. For instance, Reba's If You See Him album had only ONE song produced by Tony Brown, so I removed it from Category:Albums produced by Tony Brown. Robert Ellis Orrall has no solo production credits (one of five producers on Weather the Storm, for instance), so he shouldn't have a category. James Stroud and Kyle Lehning are probably notable, and even though they have solo credits aplenty, neither has a Wikipedia entry, so they don't need categories. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Broken clamshells•Otter chirps)} 16:48, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
• Suggestion - there are a couple of issues here. One is when a producer should have a category at all and the other is what should go into a producer's category. For when a producer should have a category, I'd suggest that the producer in question must 1) have a Wikipedia article and 2) have at least one solo producer credit. For what should be in a category, I suggest that only those albums for which the producer has sole credit be included. Does this sound reasonable? Otto4711 (talk) 13:18, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

• I agree with the 'sole credit' part (for the whole album), but not with the 'must have an article' part. A producer with several 'sole credits' is worth a category (and probably an article). If it's just 1 sole credit then perhaps not. Occuli (talk) 11:44, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

• How about then that they must pass WP:MUSIC? If they are notable enough for an article then they can have a category whether the article's been written or not. Otto4711 (talk) 12:36, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

• I agree with Otto's idea. For instance, Richard Landis doesn't seem to meet WP:MUSIC (as I can find no sources for him), so he shouldn't have a category for the albums he's produced. Jerry Crutchfield, though he doesn't yet have an article, does meet WP:MUSIC (multiple sources), so it probably wouldn't hurt to have a category for him. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP)} 15:58, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

• Comment This is a perfect example of why an article is better than a category. I don't like the idea of saying an album was produced by someone who might've only produced one album track. It's misleading. Spellcast (talk) 01:09, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

New guidelines

Given the outcomes of recent CfDs, I think we should establish a set of criteria for these categories. I think that the criteria should be something like this:

Categorization by producer should not be used unless the following criteria are met:

1. The producer or production team must meet WP:N, but does not necessarily have to have an existing article.
2. The producer or production team must be the sole producer of at least x amount of albums.

This cfd can be cited as the precedent for point 1, and this cfd for point 2. As for the first point, I said earlier that while Jerry Crutchfield doesn't yet have an article, it wouldn't be unreasonable to have a category for his albums, as there are plenty of sources about Crutchfield himself that could make for an article on him, as opposed to Richard Landis for whom virtually no sources exist. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP)} 21:24, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

• Oh, and one more wrinkle. They must have produced at least a couple albums not recorded by themselves. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP)} 17:23, 11 December 2008 (UTC)