Module talk:Language/data/ISO 639-3

"Multiple languages" to "Multilingual"

@Trappist the monk and Ish ishwar: Can we change the text for mul from "Multiple languages" to "Multilingual"? Currently, {{wikisourcelang}} creates a box saying "Multiple languages Wikisource has original text...", which sounds silly. (See Saint Fiacc for an example.) "Multilingual Wikisource has original text..." would sound much better. But I don't know what other repercussions such a change would have. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 13:37, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

I am opposed to making any such change here. mul at the ISO 639-3 custodian is named 'Multiple languages'; see sil.org. The data in this page are taken directly from the custodian's data so it is not proper for en.wiki to modify that data. I can see two solutions:

1. modify {{wikisourcelang}} so that it renders 'Multilingual' when given mul
2. add ["mul"] = {"Multilingual"}, to Module:Language/data/ISO 639 override

Of these, I prefer the first because 'Multilingual' may not be appropriate in all places where {{#invoke:ISO 639 name|iso_639_name|mul}} would be used.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:16, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

@Trappist the monk:: the first option is fine with me, but I don't know how to edit {{wikisourcelang}} to do that. Any ideas? —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 15:05, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Replace this:

{{#if:{{#invoke:ISO 639 name|iso_639_name_exists|{{{1|}}}}}|{{#invoke:ISO 639 name|iso_639_name|{{{1|}}}}}}}

with this:

{{#ifeq:{{lc:{{{1|}}}}}|mul|Multilingual|{{#if:{{#invoke:ISO 639 name|iso_639_name_exists|{{{1|}}}}}|{{#invoke:ISO 639 name|iso_639_name|{{{1|}}}}}}}}}

To prove that it works, before you save the change, enter 'Saint Fiacc' in the 'Preview page with this template' text box and click the adjacent 'Show preview' button. The rendered {{wikisourcelang}} template should read 'Multilingual Wikisource ...' You can further test it by changing mul in the above to something else (deleting a character is sufficient). Click 'Show preview' again and you should see the 'Multiple languages Wikisource ...' text. Restore mul and save.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 16:01, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

@Trappist the monk: It worked; thanks! —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 20:13, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Piedmontese

@Trappist the monk: I would suggest the name of the language be changed from Italianate Piemontese to Piedmontese. Is this possible? イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 13:26, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

The language name associated with ISO 639-3 code pms is 'Piemontese'; see entry at 639-3 custodian's website. We should not be making changes here to override that.

There are other ways and places to override the official ISO 639 name if a persuasive case can be made. Can you make such a case?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:55, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

@Trappist the monk: I’ve just thought it would be more consistent with the name used on the Wikipedia article and (possibly?) the one that is more likely used in English. In any case I think it’s better we either use the name Piedmontese for all categories etc. or Piemontese. I find it’s just something in between like this. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 14:06, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

I think that the 'problem' that you describe is one of your own making. Today, without comment, you edited {{ISO 639 name pms}} so that it renders 'Piedmontese' when it had been rendering 'Piemontese' since its creation, 16 August 2009. Because of that change, you also created Category:Articles containing Piedmontese-language text which is merely a redirect to Category:Articles containing Piemontese-language text. I do not think that you should have edited {{ISO 639 name pms}} because now that template does not render an ISO 639 language name for ISO 639 language code pms.

Since 21 April 2005, there has existed a redirect at Piemontese language to Piedmontese language (clearly, a bit of tweaking is desirable at Piedmontese language to highlight Piemontese as a synonym of Piedmontese) so it appears that what you really wanted to do was to mimic that by redirecting Category:Articles containing Piemontese-language text to Category:Articles containing Piedmontese-language text.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 16:05, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

No, that problem was there before. I just tried to see whether it was possible to move those pages to be more consistent with categories such as Category:Piedmontese language, which turned out not to be because there is module data behind the whole thing. I’m sorry if I made any mistake. However, it is pretty clear to me there has to be much more convergence of the usage of terms in Wikipedia categories. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 16:46, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

I've changed {{lang-pms}} so that the text it outputs matches the title of our article (which was requested on the template's talk page in March), though this won't have any effect on the names of the categories. – Uanfala (talk) 16:54, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

Not sure that that was a good decision. That edit caused {{lang-pms}} to output Piedmontese while {{lang|pms|<text>}} continued to identify <text> (via lang= attribute tool tip) as 'Piemontese'. Instead of taking the time to discuss and arrive at a workable solution, both of you leaped in, made changes that you hoped would work, and we now have the mess that you see. I will do my part to clean up the messes by properly overriding pms and reverting your edit at {{lang-pms}}. Both of those template will then categorize to Category:Articles containing Piedmontese-language text. You and Editor IvanScrooge98 can cleanup the rest of the mess.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 18:48, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

If the wikipedia article has the same scope as the ISO 639 identifier, then of course we should be using the spelling preferred by wikipedia. There's no reason to insist on using one spelling within the lang templates and another one everywhere else on wikipedia. Trappist the monk, you must have noticed by now that this is the view of almost everyone who's cared to express an opinion on the matter? – Uanfala (talk) 14:13, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

Apparently you chose to ignore what it is that I wrote. Let me repeat it for you: There are other ways and places to override the official ISO 639 name if a persuasive case can be made. This talk page is associated with Module:Language/data/ISO 639-3 which derives directly from data obtained from the ISO 639-3 custodian sil.org. We should not be making changes to this data because this module holds the 'official' code ↔ name definition as published by the custodian; that is its only purpose.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 16:05, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

No-one is suggesting changes to this specific page. You know where the override tablea are, and I think a persuasive case hase already been made. – Uanfala (talk) 16:30, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

Really? Tell me again why both you and Editor IvanScrooge98 pinged me to this discussion here on the talk page that belongs to Module:Language/data/ISO 639-3 if neither of you want changes to that module?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 18:48, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

I personally had no idea there was a module to override such text. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 19:04, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

Request to undo an edit

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Module:Language/data/ISO_639-3&oldid=724280343

This edit was done by an IP without a reason given, and is different from the name used in the Sinhala language article and other Wikipedia articles on Sinhala. Would a template editor please undo this edit? Danielklein (talk) 12:48, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

Why? That edit was overwritten with this edit.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:28, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

Category:Redirects from Sinhala-language terms is a category redirect that is slowly getting populated by this. Please can this be sorted one way or the other. Timrollpickering (Talk) 13:30, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

I thought that this was settled (preferred name is Sinhala); see Module talk:Language/data/wp languages#Request to undo an edit. If it is not, continue that discussion there (probably good idea to ping all of those participating editors if you restart that moribund conversation).

—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:56, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

Bhadarwahi

This module uses the "Bhadrawahi" spelling but the article is at Bhadarwahi. Can we get this modified to stop it populating the wrong category? Timrollpickering (talk) 09:43, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Not here. This is a list of ISO 639-3 language codes and their associated language names; not what en.wiki thinks the code-name pairings should be. At sil.org, the ISO 639-3 custodian, bhd is Bhadrawahi.

Changed at Module:Lang/data

{{lang|bhd|example text}} → <span title="Bhadarwahi-language text"><i lang="bhd">example text</i></span>

—Trappist the monk (talk) 10:56, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 9 May 2020

Taíno not Taino 223.204.219.124 (talk) 03:42, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 04:16, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

I guess it will make sense to add an entry to Module:Lang/data, so that the label matches the spelling used in our articles (Taíno and Taíno language). I'm not completely sure this is the most common spelling in English though. – Uanfala (talk) 11:51, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 22 May 2020

Why I can't edit? Theo.phonchana (talk) 14:23, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Because you don't have WP:Template editor user rights.

 Not done no specific request made.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:33, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Taino

To editor Trappist the monk: with this edit, was just trying to refill all the Taino-language redirects into Category:Redirects from Taíno-language terms. For example, the Borinquen redirect is sorted to Category:Redirects from non-English-language terms instead of the correct Taino-language terms category. Evidently when all of the "Template:ISO 639 name {{{1}}}" templates were deleted per this TfD, and {{ISO 639 name}} was Luafied, some things didn't make it through. And among those things were the Taino-language redirects. Since my Lua is not that strong, I'm having trouble restoring these to the correct category sort. Would very much appreciate your help when you can find the time. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 17:18, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

{{ISO 639 name|tnq}} → Taino

—Trappist the monk (talk) 17:56, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

I know, and that's what makes this a mystery wrapped inside an enigma for me. {{R from alternative language}} only allows sorting to the non-English category when the correct category doesn't exist. However, the correct category does exist at Category:Redirects from Taíno-language terms. So the "tnq" lang code in the first parameter should work, but it doesn't. It places the correct link into the redirect's text, but it does not sort the redirect to the Taíno-language category. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 18:45, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

The code in {{R from alternative language}} is:

 | [[Category:Redirects from {{#ifexist:Category:Redirects from {{#invoke:Lang|name_from_tag|{{{1|{{{from|{{{lang|}}}}}}}}}}}-language terms
  | {{#invoke:Lang|name_from_tag|{{{1|{{{from|{{{lang|}}}}}}}}}}}
  | non-English
 }}-language terms]]

So when Module:Lang is invoked, it seems to draw from the data file I edited and looks for Category:Redirects from Taino-language terms (without the diacritical mark), which doesn't exist. And yet I kept checking after my edit, did null edits and such, but did not see any change. Scratchin' my head. Back when {{ISO 639 name tnq}} existed, the Taíno-language redirects were in the correct category, but now they're not. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 18:57, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

I tweaked Module:Language/data/ISO 639 override so that {{ISO 639 name|tnq}} produced the language name spelling that you want. Since that did not work for you, I'll undo it.

It is not clear to me why we're having this discussion here. {{R from alternative language}} does not use {{ISO 639 name}} so does not use Module:Language/data/ISO 639-3. {{R from alternative language}} uses Module:Lang so the fix goes in Module:Lang/data but, if you 'fix' that, then you will have to create/re-create Category:Articles containing Taíno-language text and delete/redirect Category:Articles containing Taino-language text. There may be other changes that I don't know about.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 19:09, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

I started it here because this is where you reverted me. I see where you're coming from, though. The code "tnq" isn't found at Module:Lang/data. Could that be the problem? Should we add tnq to that module? P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 19:24, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Module:Lang gets all of its language tags from Module:Language/data/iana languages which is a transcription from the IANA language-subtag-registry file. tnq is in that module. Until now, there has been no call to override the IANA name spelling so, of course, tnq is not in Module:Lang/data. Overriding tnq will break links to Category:Articles containing Taino-language text as I described above.

Doesn't this get fixed if you create Category:Redirects from Taino-language terms? In your code snippet, the #ifexist: is looking for a category named 'Redirects from Taino-language terms'. Because Category:Redirects from Taino-language terms does not exist, the code snippet will always select Category:Redirects from non-English-language terms.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 19:55, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Exactly. My concern is that if I create that category as a redirect to the correct category, we'll have a category redirect that contains entries. I think that's a no-no. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 19:58, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Went ahead and created the non-diacritic category, then redirected the diacritic category to it. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 20:33, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

One obvious consideration here is that category names should match the corresponding wikipedia article. It's not desirable to have the article Taíno language use one spelling, while those categories have another. – Uanfala (talk) 08:43, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

No, it's not desirable, however editors must also try to be practical. The more visible something is to our readers, the more important it is to be as precise as possible. So the articles should be titled with the correct spelling with the diacritical mark, but that becomes less critical with category titles. Most readers won't discern the difference between Taíno and Taino, won't even notice it. Those that do will give little thought to the i-acute or lack thereof. With that in mind we as editors must weigh it against the sometimes huge ramifications of making everything "just right". P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 09:20, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

I'm fully with you that this is too insignificant to be worth the trouble, but I think we should differentiate between things that aren't desirable and those that are but we as a community can't be bothered to do them: we do try to keep category names in sync with articles (see e.g. WP:C2D). – Uanfala (talk) 09:45, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Actually, this is worth bothering about. The same bit in the module that determines the spelling used in the hidden editorial categories that no-one's expected to care about also affects the reader-facing output of Template:Lang-tnq. – Uanfala (talk) 09:51, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Well, perhaps you can convince the folks that compile the IANA registry, which is the data used by the module, to use the i-acute? They spell it "Taino". P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 17:43, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Of course not. There's no reason for them to follow our conventions, just like – and that's the crucial bit here – there's no reason for us to follow theirs. – Uanfala (talk) 17:59, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Well, you got me there. Is it "our convention" to spell this word with an i-acute? Or is it the actual way it's spelled? We spell "railway" like that, but if our convention were to spell it "raleway", that wouldn't make it correct. I don't think it's our convention or IANA's convention that is germane. What should count is the answer to the questions, "What is the correct way to spell this word? Is it 'Taino' or is it 'Taíno'? What is the Taí[i]no convention? Who decided to spell it with the i-acute? The people themselves? That's doubtful." Until we know the answers, then we're pretty much stuck. As per usual we should rely on reliable sources, but those seem as mixed up as we are. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 23:28, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Names used in categories should match the title of the corresponding article: that's not negotiable. Maybe we can't always be bothered to bring them in sync, and that's fine. But to suggest that the title of an article that's been stable for two decades and that's been backed with consensus from talk page discussions is "wrong" and that the name used in a hidden maintenance category or in a random database on the net is "right" – I really don't know what to make of that. If you believe the title of an article is incorrect or that it doesn't match usage in reliable sources, then the appropriate course of action is to start a discussion and if that gains consensus then the name will be changed both in the article title and across the templates and categories. – Uanfala (talk) 10:08, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Well, TM seems to think that it would take a lot of work to get there with little relative benefit, and I agree with TM. You once inspired me with an easy way to get around the round-robin page move procedure. Do you know of an easy way to get us where we want to be on this issue? P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 17:47, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Hän

Just found while editing that the link produced through this module from haa (Han language) is a redirect; Han should be replaced with Hän for this reason. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 13:56, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Real life example please?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:57, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

{{etymology}} as I tried at Klondike, Yukon: “from Hän Tr'ondëk 'hammerstone water'”. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 15:08, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

{{etymology|haa|Tr'ondëk|hammerstone water}} → from Hän Tr'ondëk 'hammerstone water'

—Trappist the monk (talk) 15:21, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Update procedure question

I need some hand holding to understand how to update this module. I followed the instructions at Module:Language/data/ISO_639-3/make which produced a single change: code wdt went from {"Wendat"} to {"Wendat", "Wyandot"}. I updated this module only to have it reverted with the comment "manual changes to this page are discouraged because they will be overwritten at the next automated update". The data I'm using from SIL is dated January 23rd. It's July. When is the "next automated update" scheduled? Do I need to do something to trigger it? Thanks. DRMcCreedy (talk) 23:14, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

At this edit on 2023-01-30 I updated the module to use the 2023-01-23 data set. In that edit, ["wdt"] = {"Wendat", "Wyandot"}, was changed to ["wdt"] = {"Wendat"},. I suspect that the change was made pursuant to change request 2021-041. It would appear that sil.org have committed the unforgivable sin, to wit: sometime between 2023-01-30T15:20 UTC and your edit, someone at sil.org changed iso-639-3_Code_Tables_20230123.zip without updating the zip file's timestamp. Looking inside the current zip there are several file dates listed.

If we are to believe the 2021-041 change request wya is deprecated and new codes have been adopted: wdt for Wendat and wyn for Wyandot. If that is true then wdt should not apply to both Wendat and Wyandot. In the zip file that I have just downloaded, iso-639-3_Name_Index_20230123.tab has wdt listed twice:

wdt Wendat Wendat

wdt Wyandot Wyandot

This seems wrong to me. So, as a sanity check, I looked in the current version of the IANA language subtag registry (2023-05-11). That shows wdt assigned to Wendat and wyn assigned to Wyandot.

I reverted your edit because it looked like a manual edit (the timestamp at the top of the module did not change). I'm not minded to revert myself because (I may be wrong) but I don't think that any templates or modules that use Module:Language/data/ISO 639-3 use the second name if one is listed – it's been a while since I looked at Module:ISO 639 name. If you believe otherwise, I'm happy to look.

And lastly, I am unwilling to connect my en.wiki identity with my real life identity so I will not be asking sil.org to clarify but you, or some other editor reading this might want to ask them to explain why they changed a released zip file without updating the file name and to explain the wdt for Wendat / Wyandot confusion.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 00:23, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick reply. What a HORRIBLE practice to update a zip file without changing the filename! I've sent an email as you suggested. It seems confusing to have wya Wyandot split into wyn Wyandot and wdt Wendat only to call wdt both Wendat and Wyandot. I agree with leaving your revert in place until clarification. Thanks again. DRMcCreedy (talk) 02:00, 13 July 2023 (UTC)