Talk:'Tis the Season

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Requested move 30 December 2014[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this particular section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move. Cúchullain t/c 14:06, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

'Tis the Season → 'Tis the Season (disambiguation) – Surely the primary inference of this phrase is by far the song, Deck the Halls, compared to which all other uses of the phrase are obscure. I would move this page and redirect to Deck the Halls, with a hatnote pointing the disambig. bd2412 T 19:09, 30 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Let's see what the pageviews have to say about that. In the last 90 days:
In other words, the song that originated the phrase gets 80% of the traffic. Whether that traffic is coming from this page is an open question, but the numbers suggest a close parity. bd2412 T 02:56, 4 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Those counts are from an odd anomaly of a few days, noted at Wikipedia:Top_25_Report#Exclusions. Ignoring those few days, there are few visits to the disambig page. The Deck the Halls views blipped around there, too, a bit, but had steady traffic for the month before Christmas, then plummeted. Let's review the numbers at the end of January, and your numbers will evaporate. Dicklyon (talk) 05:08, 4 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
OMG, I just noticed that your 90-day count for Deck the Halls is almost all from 1 day about 90 days ago! Weird. Wait a few days and try again. Dicklyon (talk) 05:13, 4 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Dicklyon The "odd anomaly" is a misnomer. It was just the Xmas season Google Doodle, so it should have been included in the Top 25 as normal and was highly influential as, atypically, it lasted several days. The click through from the dab to the carol was low (1/4M dab and 3-9K respectively per day if I remember correctly). The point is, I added and maintained the link to what clearly is the primary topic. As far as my WP:OR, that also matched the meaning the Google Doodle had in mind. We should neither be influenced by Google's choice of link, or shoot ourselves in the foot by omitting this obvious quote PT. Widefox; talk 13:12, 4 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Nobody is suggesting omitting it, but the transient reason for a primarytopic claim has passed. And the many views counted at Deck the Halls were 90 days ago, on one day in early October, related to the Google Doodle. Let's look at the 60-day hits to avoid that:
These are still ridiculously influenced by the surge in traffic from the disambig page when the doodle hit, but they give a very different picture by ignoring the October spike at Deck the Halls. Let's wait and see what the new year brings before basing primary topic claims on this season's anomaly. By current numbers, a primary topic claim looks wrong. Dicklyon (talk) 17:17, 4 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If we can't rely on pageviews, should we not then look to historical importance? Deck the Halls is the origin of the phrase, and has been a standard for over a hundred and twenty years. bd2412 T 17:56, 4 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Agree both aspects are important per PT, popularity via pageviews are just one aspect. No point in waiting for further analysis or going down long-term stat analysis, when the long term significance of the carol is not in dispute. Widefox; talk 20:22, 4 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That is hardly a reason for a primary topic claim on this ambiguous phrase. Dicklyon (talk) 22:17, 5 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I was just paraphrasing WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Widefox; talk 00:24, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This is OK per WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT. Widefox; talk 00:24, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This is a small dab, not that the number of other entries is relevant for deciding on a PT (we have PTs with > 10x this many entries). The notion that everyone must know a PT would set the bar so high to exclude all PTs. Widefox; talk 22:16, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I think a credible case can be made that virtually everyone in the world who is familiar with the phrase "'Tis the Season" would be familiar with the song. Certainly anyone who is familiar with the other Christmas-themed topics on the page would be. Note that both of the albums with matching titles actually do include the song. bd2412 T 10:25, 24 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Likely yes, and all other items here are Christmassy/presumably derive from it. Even the wiktionary link I put in wikt:'tis uses the carol as an example for just "'tis". Anyhow, certainly for selecting the PT, our focus here is just in comparison with the other items, a clear PT. Widefox; talk 22:58, 24 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
A clear case of "NO PT" you mean. "Selecting the PT" is a non-goal when there is this much ambiguity. Dicklyon (talk) 23:40, 24 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Which ambiguity? Coming back to the point of this !vote, there seems to me no backing for this objection in guideline/policy - it is allowed per WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT, and thresholds of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Widefox; talk 12:52, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You'd have to show a primary topic reason for that to apply. Since Deck the Halls is getting way less than half the hits in the last 30 or 60 days, it would be better to use a disambig page than make this spurious primary topic claim. Did you look at the counts data I collected above? Dicklyon (talk) 17:38, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
WP:PRIMARYTOPIC is explicit in that there is not one single criterion (e.g. pageviews). Long-term significance is mentioned, and pertinent here, although more subjective. Widefox; talk 22:16, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - apart from the "anomalies" mentioned above, there is no clear evidence that people visiting this dab page are looking for "Deck the Halls". It is not the name of the song, and our readers are best served by having a free choice as to which they go to (including the song if necessary), direct from the dab page. I would also suggest that 'Tis the season (the version with a lowercase s) redirect to this dab page, for similar reasons.  — Amakuru (talk) 15:29, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Already covered above that it's not an anomaly - we count Google Doodles as normal views, and the Traffic Report was fixed to include these views, including this dab in the top 10. If I'd have boldly redirected at that point, 1/4M views per day would have gone to the carol correctly. I'm not advocating considering just that week's traffic alone, but it was 99.99%:0.01% where we would have served readers better with the right article rather than a dab. The fact that Google chose to link that term causing the traffic blip just adds credibility that the long term significance of the term is with that article and not the obscure ones. (I can equally understand opinions that we shouldn't be influenced by that week at all, but consider this - if we get that much traffic while the article (and primary topic) were missing from the dab, shouldn't we aid readers even if it was a spelling error or unusual referral?) Widefox; talk 10:04, 24 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Amakuru. --BDD (talk) 16:05, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Before objecting on the PT not being the name of the article, please see WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT, as we use redirects for entries and PTs all the time (and by default for initialisms). We also have a tag for redirects from quotes. Widefox; talk 13:01, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think most of us opposers understand this plenty well. I know I do. But "Deck the Halls" is very unlikely to be referred to by the phrase "'Tis the Season". Just try to think of an example: "The carolers did a good rendition of ''Tis the Season'."? No. A person wouldn't say that, and if they did, I'd assume they were talking about a different song. 'Tis the season should be retargeted to the disambiguation page. No objections the longer "'Tis the season to be jolly" and variants as redirect to "Deck the Halls". --BDD (talk) 17:05, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There is no other song (at least, not in our corpus) by that title. If someone said they were singing "'Tis the Season", I would guess that they meant "Deck the Halls" and were mistaking its best-known verse for its title, as happened with "Baba O'Riley" (commonly known as "Teenage Wasteland"). bd2412 T 17:26, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, that's more plausible. But as you've noted, this is a really well known song, and its title is essentially its incipit, so I'm skeptical of how often that would actually happen. In my book, that's enough for a entry on the dab, but not for calling primary topic. --BDD (talk) 17:40, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It happened often enough for all the other items to use it as their titles, plus a Google Doodle for several days driving 1/4M views per day.
(We have a dab with entries that derive their name from the PT candidate. I'm selecting it only in relative terms to the other items. If there were no others it would be a redirect that nobody would question.) Widefox; talk 21:20, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Semi-protected edit request on 23 December 2016[edit]

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.75.43.12 (talk) 05:39, 23 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Google Doodle[edit]

Hi User:Bkonrad, 'Tis the Season is the Google Doodle again. Previously the Xmas doodle wasn't a single day but lasted a week (AFAIR). Can you extend protection for 1 week. (I write here so it's documented). Regards Widefox; talk 13:16, 23 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • we arnt sure if it will be for a week or not and its better to reprotect if needed becuase of the way of wikipedia — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smith04076 (talk • contribs) 13:32, 23 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Minimum protection is standard procedure yes, Doodles are normally one day too, sure. Check the protection log: [1] in 2014 a weeklong Doodle was protected three times by three admins covering 23-28 Dec, 2015 was a three day protection. Last time I checked we had 1/4M daily views of the dab, so may as well protect for the multi-day duration. Widefox; talk 14:02, 23 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Doodle is over today, but the protection ran out just before and IP vandalism resumed. Widefox; talk 10:43, 26 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

google[edit]

New google Ajparmarr (talk) 02:32, 24 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move (after Doodle over)[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Was not actually opened as an RM; that was done later, resulting in a duplicate thread which I'm closing as moot.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  06:46, 13 January 2017 (UTC) (non-admin closure)[reply]

There's clearly a primary topic 'Tis the Season -> Deck the Halls same as 'Tis the season, and we've yet again got the year's longest lasting Google Doodle driving readers for days. I'm leaving the request until that's over. Widefox; talk 12:11, 24 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 26 December 2016[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. It has not been conclusively demonstrated that Deck the Halls is the primary topic for the phrase "Tis the Season", and there is no consensus for this move. It remains a disambiguation page. (closed by non-admin page mover) Bradv 02:13, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

'Tis the Season → 'Tis the Season (disambiguation) – Clear primary topic referring to lyrics of "Deck the Halls" in comparison to the other items. Since the previous no consensus above, the lowercase 'Tis the season has been challenged at RfD and consensus was to keep the redirect to that topic and not redirect to the dab. For the uppercase there is no point in forcing users to this dab with so many relatively less significant, or, actually non-notable, articles. Per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC this is both a clear primary topic for popularity and long-term significance. The fact that this is a primary redirect, lyrics, different case are irrelevant when it comes to the goal of navigation which is the sole purpose of disambiguation - sending the ~1M readers per day to the article they wish, and not false balancing demand for non-notable topics in the pretense that any of them are wanted. The dab was previously removed from the most viewed article list as "erroneous", but this continues to be an annual own goal with Google's longest annual Doogle. (non neutral nom rant to underline issue of putting readers first per WP:IAR) Widefox; talk 11:13, 26 December 2016 (UTC) --Relisting as consensus is still not clear. GeoffreyT2000 (talk, contribs) 21:12, 2 January 2017 (UTC) The selection of the primary topic isn't related to the (timing of the) Google Doodle Widefox; talk 13:21, 26 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Note "'Tis the Season" is from Deck the Halls (Why Do We Say ’Tis the Season?) and is an example at wikt:'tis. Widefox; talk 18:44, 26 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per argument above by @Dicklyon: "Let's look at the 60-day hits to avoid that: Deck the Halls has been viewed 67876 times. 'Tis the Season (Vince Gill and Olivia Newton-John album) has been viewed 61165 times. Tis the Season (Wendy Moten album) has been viewed 5843 times 'Tis the Season (novel) has been viewed 37836 times. 'Tis the Season to Be Fearless has been viewed 7376 times These are still ridiculously influenced by the surge in traffic from the disambig page when the doodle hit, but they give a very different picture by ignoring the October spike at Deck the Halls. Let's wait and see what the new year brings before basing primary topic claims on this season's anomaly. By current numbers, a primary topic claim looks wrong. Dicklyon (talk) 17:17, 4 January 2015 (UTC) ....that argument still stands. The 500,000+ selling original Olivia Newton John and Vince Gill album currently has an AFD on it because it was commissioned by Hallmark Cards and sold through 40,000 Hallmark Cards outlets rather than a Billboard system outlet, and is therefore quote "crap", but those figures from pre blip 60-day hits show that across 60-day hits Deck the Halls had been viewed 67876 times while 'Tis the Season (Vince Gill and Olivia Newton-John album) has been viewed 61165 times. Those 61,165 readers may well also be quote "crap", but it shows that 'Tis the Season is not automatically/normally the immediate only subject. This phrase has become generic. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:33, 26 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The assumption that readers know which topic they want Doodle -> dab -> article for "'Tis the Season" is just an assumption. Two of those examples are not notable and the deletion discussions are underway. That lack of notability may be an indicator that this assumption is wrong, explaining those numbers. The previous suggestion by Dicklyon of kicking the issue down the road for better stats has resulted in this dab not having the obvious primary topic yet again for ~1M pageviews per day:
The cause is a dab without the obvious primary topic. The effect is we're driving millions of readers to a dab when there's an arguably clear primary topic but failing to provide that to them. Result - error or uncertain navigation from readers. Commonsense is that they're using it to remember where it's from. We know, but we still force them an extra click that they may get wrong (or out of curiosity they click other entries). Repeating that failure every year is just not learning. (the above RM is out of line with the sentiment at the 'Tis the season RfD) Widefox; talk 13:21, 26 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
How do you explain 61,165 people going to an article clearly labelled 'Tis the Season (Vince Gill and Olivia Newton-John album) if those 61,165 people don't want it? In ictu oculi (talk) 13:50, 26 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Ultimately, we go by policy, guideline. So... Here is not the place to defend an article you created that was already deleted this month. The 2nd AfD is for that and it's WP:OFFTOPIC here. (and I've answered that same question already at the 2nd AfD which appears to side with "delete"). Widefox; talk 14:32, 26 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – clearly no primary topic still. Dicklyon (talk) 15:54, 26 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Dicklyon 1. Why Do We Say ’Tis the Season? 2. why does Google send millions of readers to this dab every year? 3. it was originally a redirect to 'Tis the Season (novel) in 2012, we've been dragging our feet on this since, despite the RfD agreeing on the lowercase, and a repeat every year of sending millions of users to a dab with a strong entry and only weak rivals per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. "Clearly" how in the light of that? Widefox; talk 17:48, 26 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I can't speak for Google, but lots of articles on the doodle do not mention the "Deck the Halls" song; it's more about seasonal traditions (including caroling and other musical performances) as the articles explain. If they link the disambig page about all this, I have to assume that's probably what was intended. Dicklyon (talk) 22:52, 26 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The doodle in question leads to a Google search for "'Tis the Season" when it's clicked. The top results include the Wikipedia articles of subjects titled "'Tis the Season", which gives them a huge bump compared to what would normally experienced for these articles, several of which are quite obscure. As I say below, when 'Tis the Season (novel) was merged to Main Street (novel series) and fell off the Google results, its page views declined precipitously. The same is likely to happen if others are merged or moved.--Cúchullain t/c 00:21, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Taking Google: they really aren't intending to link to any of the obscure albums are they?!, so that leaves "'Tis the season" (famous carol and root of the phrase) or the Xmas season link which fails WP:DABMENTION. People I know all associate (kids up) it with the lyrics not the season. Christmas is linked from the lyrics, so the only harm is leaving a clear primary topic off so driving millions to a dab with obscure / deletable articles. Much better to provide the carol. We know from the stats that tens/hundreds of thousands of readers aren't getting straight to the carol as they're clicking on the obscure stuff. Widefox; talk 11:20, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Dicklyon in your Google search you excluded "Deck" and "Halls" 0.9M hits, not excluding them 2.5M hits (easiest to see including them 0.5M hits) where secondary sources support the Doodle is linked to the carol (as well as referring to the general season) "...the lyrics to Deck the Halls" [2] "...Tis the season is a line from the popular carol Deck the halls...[3] "lyrics from the 1862 Christmas carol Deck the Halls" [4]. More important than Ghits, I note you didn't mention Why Do We Say ’Tis the Season? - an RS backing the noun phrase is from the lyrics. "'Tis the Season" fails WP:DABMENTION at Christmas and holiday season so we have more likely than all others put together per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC (and the bonus that a primary redirect would better serve readers with a Christmas season article than a dab). Widefox; talk 14:01, 3 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I excluded those terms to show that "lots of articles on the doodle do not mention the 'Deck the Halls' song", as I said. Dicklyon (talk) 16:10, 3 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Evidence of absence isn't absence of evidence. This is evidence that the ambiguous term is from the carol Why Do We Say ’Tis the Season?, and the other sources above back that for the Doodle, don't you agree? Widefox; talk 17:54, 3 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. It's clear that the article traffic is greatly influenced by the annual Google doodles. It appears that the vast majority of the hits for all the other articles besides Deck the Halls shoot up at that time, inflating hits for what are much less notable topics. Looking at the stats just between March 1 and October 1, Deck the Halls receives 73.3% of the hits.[5] We can also see that as soon as articles are merged, and thereby fall off Google searches, their hits decline precipitously. 'Tis the Season (novel) reportedly got 37836 hits back in 2015, [6] but after it was merged to Main Street (novel series) the redirect got only 65 total hits between March and October 2016, while the series article got 13,388.[7]
This is a sign that readers are only coming to these articles due to the Google Doodle, not because there's intrinsic interest in the topics themselves. So far as I can see, all evidence points to Deck the Halls, a common and very well known Christmas carol for over 150 years, as being the primary topic as the only one of all the ambiguous topics with perennial interest and substantial long-term significance.--Cúchullain t/c 17:53, 26 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yup, exactly. Ping editors User:BD2412 User:Gregkaye User:Kamek98 User:Dicklyon User:Steel1943 User:Andrewa User:Amakuru User:BDD User:Bkonrad User:Sjude43 User:Joemeservy User:Comic Book Runner User:Brandmeister User:Newone User:Hiplibrarianship User:Hydrargyrum. Widefox; talk 18:44, 26 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
We have {{R from quotation}}lyrics, and primary redirects. The "'Tis the Season" is referenced to come from the carol unlike those other examples (links now provided above). I only just added Christmas and holiday season to the dab today, so millions of readers and writers didn't miss it for years. Widefox; talk 18:48, 26 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
'Twas the Night Before Christmas isn't the title either. We do have primary topics for lyrics that are synonymous with the titles and have wider Xmas association - at least one precedent 'Twas the Night Before Christmas (disambiguation), and no reader would expect a sourced lyric to redirect to a general calendar article i.e. both 'Twas the Night Before Christmas 'Twas the night before Christmas --shouldn't-redirect-to-> Christmas Eve. We have a redirect tag for quote which targets the origin. Done. Widefox; talk 12:35, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, as before. In the mind of the casual reader, "'Tis the Season" is inevitably followed by "to be jolly, fa la la la la, la la la la". bd2412 T 18:50, 26 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. "Tis the season" does not mean Deck the Halls in particular, it is a much more widely used phrase than that. There is no primary topic here.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:20, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Nobody is claiming (the ambiguous term) exclusively means the carol - the other dab entries are all valid. The carol satisfies WP:PRIMARYTOPIC more likely than all others put together (from common sense rather than stats / page views). All the others are obscure apart from the Xmas season which the carol covers anyhow. Widefox; talk 17:00, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Note the Google Doodle [8] "'Tis the season for song! Wintertime ... caroling. .... original carols were songs ... caroling ... orchestras that played songs for people to sing ..." (emphasis own)...Today’s Doodle features a merry crew of carolers….." . Similarly for the alternative climate one [9] . Widefox; talk 17:37, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Amakuru, again. By all means, tweak the hidden comment (which is currently fairly opaque) with reference to talk page discussion to keep people from removing Deck the Halls from this dab, but otherwise, we shouldn't let Google Doodles drive our decisions. --BDD (talk) 15:19, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That's just it. The only reason any of the other topics get such high page views during the holidays is because of the Google Doodles.--Cúchullain t/c 16:42, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'd expect an increased interest in any Christmas-related topics during the Christmas season. --BDD (talk) 17:03, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
BDD we also shouldn't convince ourselves that the phrase isn't synonymous and originating from the carol just because of the Doodle. The dictionary link at top is clear it's from the carol [10]. User:Amakuru is wrong - it does refer to Deck the Halls in particular, with the other entries all derivative. Wider associations of the lyrics about the season are just that...looking at the obscurity/popularity of the other topics it's a clear PRIMARYTOPIC. The only clear rival would be the season article, which doesn't mention it (so fails WP:DABMENTION) and wasn't in the dab until I put in this year. Dabs just being for navigation - readers either want the carol topic or the wider season topic associated with it which is available at the carol. We shouldn't be forcing millions of readers to select from the dab when the other albums are not desired. Widefox; talk 17:00, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's not synonymous, though. See my comments in the previous discussion. No one calls "Deck the Halls" "'Tis the Season". The phrase really has acquired a genericized meaning that has nothing to do with the song. Just today, in fact, I read something in a newspaper about drinking habits that began "'Tis the season to imbibe". --BDD (talk) 18:13, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't that like any lyrics? in terms of the dictionary definition it is [11] . Widefox; talk 00:20, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well, yes. And typically, one doesn't navigate Wikipedia by searching lyrics. To wit: Ancient Yuletide carol, Our gay apparel, etc. --BDD (talk) 15:21, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
BDD Typically isn't the question, specifically the quote "'Tis the season" is (with all the other items deriving from it, forcing us to disambiguate just that ambiguous lyric), and we do support navigation from quotations per {{R from quotation}} Category:Redirects from quotations (and {{R from phrase}} {{R from catchphrase}} {{R from slogan}}) and primary redirects. Don't think we should discriminate based on either. Is it more likely than all others put together, yes. It's a primarytopic. We agree it's not common, may be even ugly (as a WP:PTM of lyrics line) but there's RS backing it as a phrase originating from the carol, and sources linking the Doodle to the carol, and it's only navigation. Is it better to force millions of readers to the dab every year, or just take them to the most likely? (note I only just added the Xmas season to the dab, so it appears that none of the millions have missed it, which is the only likely alternative for most readers). Widefox; talk 14:38, 3 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
'Twas the Night Before Christmas (disambiguation) is a similar one, both sets of lyrics are synonymous with the titles, have wider Xmas meaning (Christmas eve), and is a primary topic. The redirect template gives "From a quotation: This is a redirect from a quotation to its best-known source." We all agree that's Deck the Halls. Readers wanting the season article are linked from Deck the Halls now (due to the wider meaning being explained there as originating from the lyrics). Widefox; talk 12:35, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Very different cases. "The Night Before Christmas" (with or without "Twas") is a WP:COMMONNAME. Many people familiar with the poem, including me, don't know it's actual name. I doubt you could find someone who genuinely doesn't know the name "Deck the Halls" but would say, "Oh, let's go sing ''Tis the Season'!" Furthermore, poems are quite commonly used as alternative names in some cases (see incipit). I'm seeing a lot of arguments that this phrase is commonly associated with "Deck the Halls", that it originates there, but none that it's a genuine alternative name. --BDD (talk) 15:24, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Agree it's not the same (as I said below), but similar. Well, genuinely BDD, I didn't have to look far - before adding "Deck the Halls" to this dab a couple of years ago, I'm not sure I remembered "Deck the Halls" as the title! Although I believe I'm competent enough to complete the lyrics "'Tis the season..." "...to be jolly" (as others mention here). That's just me though, for what it's worth. Considering COMMONNAME isn't the bar for PRIMARYTOPIC, and we have many primary topic redirects a long way from WP:COMMONNAME article titles, or even bold terms e.g. subtopic redirects (random example Suwen, presumably there's even {{R from incorrect name}} ones too, IDK). As the phrase is more broadly used, this seems to qualify as a subtopic of Deck the Halls, which is now much better covered in the article than by a dab. I do agree with your broader point that I wouldn't bold "'Tis the season" as an alternative title without RS. I'm guessing this is the main use of navigation for readers - navigation of a well known phrase to the article covering it per {{R from quote}} "to its best-known source" is more useful than via a dab with one article that's more likely than all the others combined - a PRIMARYTOPIC. (I don't understand the WP:COMMONNAME aspect of A Visit from St. Nicholas as it states that it's more commonly known as "'Twas the Night Before Christmas") I'm thankful it's there for me and others to navigate - being the only purpose of these primary topics and dabs. More similar is The British are coming!, Dead rabbit. Widefox; talk 02:17, 5 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per parallel cases of Happy Holidays (disambiguation) and Season's Greetings (disambiguation) — HipLibrarianship talk 23:25, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Hiplibrarianship, what's the parallel here? We have specific articles about those phrases themselves. We have an article about the song that includes this phrase, but not one about the phrase itself. --BDD (talk) 20:07, 1 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    BDD, the parallel is that all three phrases are associated with a generalized Yuletide season, and said phrases are routinely recycled in various contexts, including (most pressing for the 'pedia) the titles of works (i.e., albums, books, films). It seems best to keep these various titles on a dab page akin to Happy Holidays (disambiguation) and Season's Greetings (disambiguation). Since I'm not convinced that 'Tis the Season (capitalized) should be treated differently from 'Tis the season (lowercase), I support the dab page. Furthermore, I think it would be valuable to add 'Tis the S/season to Christmas_and_holiday_season#Greetings, indicating the "Deck the Halls" origin. — HipLibrarianship talk
    What do you mean you "support the dab page"? No one's arguing to get rid of it altogether. I would agree that capitalization shouldn't matter here, but if you're suggesting you support the dab page being the default place for the phrase, that would put you in the oppose camp. --BDD (talk) 18:53, 3 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    'Twas the Night Before Christmas (disambiguation) is the best similar dab, where the phrase from the lyrics are synonymous with it (the poem), and it is a clear primary topic. User:Hiplibrarianship as BDD asks, can you clarify your reasoning for us, thanks. (Just to explain, currently 'Tis the season -> Deck the Halls, and I'm proposing 'Tis the Season does likewise, as per {{R from quotation}} "This is a redirect from a quotation to its best-known source", the dab will still exist but have a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. As for adding, I've already added it to Deck the Halls linking to the season article which explains the cultural impact of the lyrics - as comparison 'Twas the night before Christmas and 'Twas the Night Before Christmas have primary redirects to A Visit from St. Nicholas, not Christmas Eve) Widefox; talk 11:54, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    I registered a straightforward vote of SUPPORT for the proposal as written, which is to MOVE & RENAME said content to a dab page. I regret that my logic was ambiguous to some; I suppose I failed to explicitly register my thoughts on the proper primary topic, so to be clear: I think it would benefit the vast majority of readers if all forms of (')tis the season redirected to the Deck the Halls article. — HipLibrarianship talk 20:46, 5 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support people definitely refer to the lyrics of "Deck the Halls" more often than not when using this phrase. I'm surprised this form isn't already a redirect to there. Snuggums (talk / edits) 15:01, 31 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. We wouldn't even be using this phrase if it weren't for the song "Deck the Halls". It's the original source of all those album titles. It doesn't matter that it's not the actual title of the song. All you have to do is hum "'Tis the season"—what song is stuck in your head afterwards? I see no ambiguity about this at all. Neither do various sources: [12], [13], [14], [15]. — Gorthian (talk) 00:22, 5 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments after relisting[edit]

  • Still no consensus for this primarytopic grab is not really a great reason to relist. Closing as no consensus would make more sense. Dicklyon (talk) 21:22, 2 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I've replied to your Google search argument above, yes a Google search excluding the carol finds hits. Not excluding the carol finds more hits and provides secondary sources that back the claim that the Google Doodle refers to Deck the Halls. The lowercase did have consensus to redirect to the carol Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2015_February_6#.27Tis_the_season. I see this as a conservative primary topic debate, as nobody would break the primary topic redirect with millions of users if the dab had been setup more thoroughly at the start (after removing the novel redirect), hysteresis? Widefox; talk 14:09, 3 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Dicklyon re "grab" - two of us have independently proposed this - this is a considered, discretely timed attempt to help millions of readers avoid this dab which doesn't help the majority of them navigate, in fact as someone pointed out here the stats are that the dab aids navigation error. I half fixed the dab by adding Deck the Halls, and I've waited 2 years to finish the fix. It was perverse an omission that the origin of all the entries was missing, it remains perverse until we finally fix this primary topic (PT). Now the carol article also covers the the wider meaning (does anyone really think readers type "'Tis the Season" if they want "Christmas season", really?) There's no other rival PT for readers, and we select only by relative merit. Why isn't this fixed already? The concern about having a lyric as a PT is strong, but we have others so nothing new. Widefox; talk 02:01, 6 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Update rightly held views above about usage of the phrase from the lyrics more widely for the Christmas and holiday season topic - that's now mentioned at the topic "Deck the Halls". Precedent we already have a similar dab 'Twas the Night Before Christmas (disambiguation) which correctly has the primary topic 'Twas the Night Before Christmas as the lyric (which is also synonymous with the title of the poem, in this case, as well as a broader meaning of Christmas Eve - standard hatnote fitted at primary redirect). The fact that "'Tis the season" isn't listed at the carol (yet) as an alternative title doesn't detract from this even more so being what readers want rather than a dab page (as all the other entries are obscure). Widefox; talk 11:54, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Two articles deleted which were linked here due to lack of notability (entries kept per usual). Widefox; talk 11:44, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is now only one article besides the carol (the Jimmy Buffet album) and a bunch of redirects.--Cúchullain t/c 16:53, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wikipedia:Top 25 Report "For the third year in a row, a Google Doodle sent hundreds of thousands of people to a disambig page. You'd think they would have sorted this by now." I'd have thought we'd have sorted this by now User:Serendipodous. 20th position for December 2016 with 2.4M views [16], and 160K for Deck the Halls [17] . Widefox; talk 00:33, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    And why did the Google search send them to the disambig page? Because "Deck the Halls" is not really a primary meaning for this phrase. It refers to the season as a whole. I just did a Google search for the phrase, and not one single link that came up refers to Deck the Halls. Not one. Similarly for a book search. We would be far better redirecting this to Christmas and holiday season, because that's the primary topic for this by common usage, but in the absence of that, we may as well stick to the dab page, rather than making a redirect somewhere that people probably don't want to go.  — Amakuru (talk) 17:51, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Circular argument - we put a dab at this location, so it's us that's sending them to a dab, and we can fix that now. The sources WP:V that the origin is from the carol, we have redirects from quotes for primary topics, and the wider meaning is also covered at the carol article. The downside for forcing millions of users to the dab is they get a selection of non-notable topics, there's no upside compared with landing them at the carol (when we all agree they're after the carol or the wider meaning also covered at the carol article). Per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC it's worth considering usage and long-term significance which the carol topic covers all aspects. Just like Apple vs Apple Inc. - even if the usage is larger we can still select the long-term significance (which readers will get the etymology and Xmas link at the carol, whereas dab pages are for navigation only). What concerns me in addition, is now we've moved 'Tis the SeaSon, that Google search lists 'Tis the SeaSon first. Amakuru, you realise that I added an entry for Christmas and holiday season after this years Doodle [18]? Millions of readers and all editors didn't miss it for 3 years of Doodle traffic and longer. ) Widefox; talk 11:38, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
So the solution to that is to redirect somewhere people don't want to go, instead of to the new article which you've kindly added, and which makes a lot more sense as a target? Or alternatively take them to a dab page where they can actually choose where they want to go? There is no consensus for this move, because it does not make sense. By any standard there is no WP:PRIMARYTOPIC here, and we should just move on already.  — Amakuru (talk) 15:24, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It's a matter of primary topic based on articles that do cover something called "Tis the Season". In contrast to Deck the Halls, Christmas and holiday season does not mention the phrase "Tis the Season", and so probably shouldn't even be here. Discounting the influence of Google driving the traffic every year, is Deck the Halls the most likely and significant topic compared to a Jimmy Buffett album and several non-notable topics? I think the answer is rather obvious.--Cúchullain t/c 15:53, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Amakuru again that's based on the assumption that readers don't want to go there. Even if that's is correct (which I don't believe is so), just like Apple vs Apple we can favour the long-term meaning rather than the modern usage (as a WP:PTM) in Xmas marketing "'Tis the season to buy widgets" etc which are all hanging off the original quote, along with non-notable Xmas albums) Readers navigating via a quote get both the origin of the quote normally per {{R from quote}} "This is a redirect from a quotation to its best-known source." , plus content covering the broader meaning, plus a link to the season, plus a wikt link, plus a hatnote to the dab. That's a clear primary topic for those wanting the context of the saying in connection to the season which, unless I'm mistaken, is your point! Millions of readers not missing the season link on the dab for years is evidence to me that they don't expect "'Tis the season" to redirect to Christmas and holiday season (similar to 'Twas the Night Before Christmas doesn't redirect Christmas Eve but - more firmly than this - goes to the origin of the quote). As this isn't the 19th Century, do we really expect readers to type 'Tis the season to get to Christmas and holiday season? We can't (shouldn't) put a quote redirect to the season article as 1. it's not the "best-known source" 2. it fails WP:DABMENTION 2.5 we list those dabmention fails in the dab "See also" rather than consider them primary topics 3. the carol is the right article per WP:SONG "Then write about the music and lyrics, its influences and its effect on culture" 4. two people have proposed this primary topic. Widefox; talk 13:57, 12 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: The ultimate origin of a popular phrase has nothing to do with the notability or primary-ness of that origin (origins of very notable words phrases are sometimes themselves obscure), so "we wouldn't even use that phrase if not for that particular song" arguments are not valid. Of the things on this list, the oldest of the songs is the best known to me, but I'm 40+ and all such arguments are just WP:IKNOWIT. It makes more sense to me to leave this as-is, especially since "'Tis the Season" isn't even the title of the work in question. Overall, the argument to me seems like moving the Doom video game franchise to disambiguation on the basis that the name came from a line in the movie The Color of Money (which it did), and redirecting to that movie (except that the analogy is broken by the game being disambiguated already and Doom already being a DAB page, but I think you can see my point, which is about the reasoning not the exact title configuration at any given moment).  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  06:57, 13 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • See also Talk:Never Gonna Dance Again (song)#Requested move 12 January 2017: Essentially an identical case, except that it is moot because of WP:TWODABS.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  07:03, 13 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Agree iff the phrase isn't still associated with the original. As it is, how is it in any way like Doom?! (which the person-in-the-street wouldn't associate "doom" with the game). I agree the etymology isn't a factor, or the age of topic (per Boston vs Boston, England). Does the reader want the season article if they type 'Tis the season?? Really? That's the only rival for a primary topic, and that association is covered by the primary topic describing the influence of the quote on popular culture. it's actually similar (but not as strong as) 'Twas the Night Before Christmas (disambiguation). Widefox; talk 13:13, 13 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:%27Tis_the_Season&oldid=1223580313"