Talk:2017–18 Leeds United F.C. season

Nation of birth

For players who represent a different country from the one they were born in, their birth country should be represented in tables under 'nb', and the country they have declared for as 'ni'. For example, Liam Cooper was born in England, but plays for Scotland, so he has 'nb=ENG' and 'ni=SCO'.

The nation of birth should be as it was when they were born, as is the case with many Russian or Croatian players, who still have their birthplaces listed as USSR or Yugoslavia. Vurnon Anita was born in Netherlands Antilles. Meesher (talk) 18:17, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

@Meesher: - The nationality column is for players' FIFA nationality, or nationalities if they have more than one; this is based on FIFA eligibility rules. The nationality column is not specifically for a player's nation of birth, although this will in most cases correspond with their FIFA nationality. Vurnon Anita is a Netherlands international player but he was born on Curaçao in the Netherlands Antilles. In 2010, the Netherlands Antilles was dissolved into four successor nations, one of which is Curaçao. Anita is now a national of Curaçao and the Netherlands. He is not currently a national of the Netherlands Antilles because it no longer exists.

The Curaçao Football Federation is recognised by FIFA as the legal successor to the Netherlands Antillean Football Union btw. The Netherlands Antilles is no longer a FIFA member therefore he cannot have Netherlands Antillean FIFA nationality.

Let me give another example to draw comparisons. Fiodor Černych was born in Moscow, Soviet Union in 1991, however he is currently a Lithuania international. If we were to go by your logic, we'd be saying he is a national of Lithuania and the Soviet Union, not Russia even though he was born in what is present day Russia. IJA (talk) 15:42, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

Please note that I've requested a third opinion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football. Regards IJA (talk) 15:58, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

I agree with IJA. The nationality column on a soccer-related article is for FIFA nationality (I would say it should only include one nationality anyway, especially if the player has represented an international senior team. The only case where I would say to have 2 flags is with young players who are eligible for more than one nation, haven't made a statement about their preference and it is a reasonable assumption that the nations would want them on their senior team), which isn't necessarily related to birth place. --SuperJew (talk) 16:12, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

First, not a fan of these dual flags business other than in cases were they have actively represented more than one nation and where we are unable to source their actual declarative nationality. Anyway, the flags in these tables should be about eligibility, not nation of birth (in which case most of the "English" players in this list would have the British flag). It would seem somewhat obvious that Vurnon is not eligible to represent Netherland Antilles if it doesn't exist. This info can be found in prior discussions here which states under item 5:

"Do not use flags to indicate locations of birth, residence, or death: The use of a flag can only imply citizenship and/or “representative nationality”. Many people born abroad due to traveling parents never become citizens of the countries in which they were born, and do not claim such a nationality. For example, actor Bruce Willis was born on a U.S. military base in Germany, so putting a German flag in his infobox, for any reason, might lead the casual reader to assume he is or was a German citizen. Similarly, many people die on foreign soil due to war, vacation accidents, etc., and many people emigrate, without any effect on their actual citizenship or nationality."

This is further reiterated at the bottom "Where flags are used in a table, it should clearly indicate that the flags represent representative nationality, not legal nationality". Koncorde (talk) 16:25, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

The dual flags wouldn't be allowed in the squad list, so why is it done here? The two should match. I've proposed removing secondary nationalities from the template here. Number 57 17:49, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

I don't mind if the dual flags is removed, but until that time, Černych is clearly a Lithuania international, whose nation of birth is the USSR. Saying that he was born in the Russian Federation makes no more sense than saying that Charlemagne was born in the Federal Republic of Germany. Anita isn't a national of Curaçao; he has declared for the Netherlands and plays for the Netherlands. The fact that a new country exists in the location where he was born is immaterial. Meesher (talk) 09:22, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

You're missing my point, I'm opposed to saying that he is a national of a country that no longer exists. Like with Černych, he'll be a national of Lithuania and Russia. I'm not saying that Černych was born in the Russian Federation (I specifically stated he was born in the USSR), I'm saying that he'd be a national of the Russian Federation for being born in what is present day Russia. I was using him as an example to state why it'd be daft to use a USSR flag for his nationality in 2017. Anyway, country of birth is irrelevant in this matter. The nationality column is for a player's nationality, not for a player's country of birth. And to say that Anita is not a Curaçao national is simply ridiculous. He was born and raised there, he would be eligible to play for them had he not committed himself to the Netherlands instead. It'd be like saying that Diego Costa isn't a national of Brazil because he has declared for Spain and plays for Spain. IJA (talk) 22:32, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

The following is from here:

Historical considerations: Flags change, and sometimes the geographical or political areas to which a flag applies, may also change. The rule is, always to use the historically accurate flag, for the moment of time it refers to whenever being used. I.e. the USSR flag and country name should be used for reporting before 1992, not those of the Russian Federation or the CIS. Some countries are also new, formed from parts of -or entirely subsuming- one or more other countries. Once again, it is important only to use the historical correct flag; meaning that new flags for new nations, are not allowed to be used for any time frame, prior to the moment where the new nation was born.

As this article refers to the 2017-18 season, we should use flags which reflect this current time period. It isn't historically accurate to state that Anita is a Neth Ant national in 2017-18. IJA (talk) 22:56, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

The historically accurate flag to represent Anita's nation of birth is that of the Netherland Antilles. I don't understand why this is difficult. It's the country he was born in. Meesher (talk) 21:05, 29 December 2017 (UTC)