Talk:2017 Hamburg knife attack

This is the talk page of a redirect that targets the page:
• List of mass stabbing incidents (2010–2019)
Because this page is not frequently watched, present and future discussions, edit requests and requested moves should take place at:
• Talk:List of mass stabbing incidents (2010–2019)

Crime and Criminal Biography

This redirect is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related articles

Germany: Hamburg

	Germany portal This redirect is within the scope of WikiProject Germany, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Germany on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GermanyWikipedia:WikiProject GermanyTemplate:WikiProject GermanyGermany articles
	Hamburg portal This redirect is supported by the Hamburg task force.

Islam: Islam and Controversy

	Islam portal This redirect is within the scope of WikiProject Islam, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Islam-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IslamWikipedia:WikiProject IslamTemplate:WikiProject IslamIslam-related articles
	This redirect is supported by the Islam and Controversy task force.

Terrorism

This redirect is within the scope of WikiProject Terrorism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles on terrorism, individual terrorists, incidents and related subjects on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.TerrorismWikipedia:WikiProject TerrorismTemplate:WikiProject TerrorismTerrorism articles

Nationality of the offender[edit]

The offender comes from United Arab Emirates or is a Saudi-Arabia born Palestinian --Zevener in Ostwestfalen (talk) 20:17, 28 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Jumping the gun[edit]

Can editors please stop jumping the gun here on motive? I am pretty sure in Germany just because a prosecutor says something does not make it automatically true. "There is a difference between truth and facts." - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 13:49, 1 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. "Motive is unknown until proven to be fact". Will edit article to reflect. XavierItzm (talk) 19:44, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Recent edit re motive[edit]

Re this edit, the trial has yet to take place; it's too soon to ascribe motive to the suspect. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:27, 2 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The source listed in the article (local.de) states:

A 26-year-old failed asylum seeker who carried out a deadly knife attack in a Hamburg supermarket likely had a "radical Islamist" motive, German prosecutors said Monday.
"It appears that there is a radical Islamist background to the act," they said in a statement with reference to the attack on Friday. Source: [1]

Note the language: "likely", "appears", "background". I don't believe that it's appropriate to state, in Wikipedia's voice, what the motive was in the infobox. The edit summary "the motive has already been stated as a fact by the authorities" does not jive with the source provided (emphasis mine). K.e.coffman (talk) 04:37, 2 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That is not the source cited with the motive in the article infobox.

The first source cited in the infobox states

"Officials acknowledge that Ahmad A. was known to them as an Islamist" [2]

The second source cited states

"(the attacker) had a “radical Islamist motive,” prosecutors confirmed in a statement on Monday." [3]

The language "known" and "confirmed" does not suggest there is any doubt about this information Murchison-Eye (talk) 05:13, 2 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Murchison-Eye: you need to be more careful with your interpretation of sources, especially when BLP issues come into play. You completely ignore sources describing his "psychological ailments" and the fact he receives a trial. His defense will most likely plea insanity and hence Islamism would not be the motive. Three editors have told you to stop including the motive prematurely. I suggest you abide by consensus.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 09:19, 2 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There is very little 'interpretation' when a source states things so clearly, but have it your way. Murchison-Eye (talk) 10:54, 2 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes the source says it but is it fact? You are agreeing here that the prosecution is right and that the case is closed without giving the other side the benefit of the doubt. Remember that this is a living person so WP:BLP applies. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 13:25, 2 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is based on the assumption that the information provided by reputable news sources is accurate, its not our place to extrapolate implications not directly mentioned in the source.Murchison-Eye (talk) 21:54, 2 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Then you clearly do not understand the WP:BLP implications. Of course the prosecution will say the suspect had an Islamist motive -- but they have to prove it at a trial first. A court determines whether sufficient evidence is presented to establish a motive and guilt. For whatever reason you are still blatantly neglecting the possibility forwarded in the same reliable sources that he is suffering from a mental illness and hence can be found not guilty by reason of insanity. Can you explain why you are ignoring this @Murchison-Eye:?TheGracefulSlick (talk) 23:54, 2 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Please read WP:BLPCRIME. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:02, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not arguing his guilt or anything that needs to be tried in court, several articles state that the alleged attacker was a 'known' Islamist to German officials. Thus it was added to the article, end of story really. His alleged mental issues are already mentioned in the article also, despite it not being proved in court. I'm not ignoring it as its already there...Murchison-Eye (talk) 00:30, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You are correct he is known as an Islamist, but this doesn't tell us the motive. [4] Committing jihad in the name of Islam is a motive which has been claimed but not connected. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:12, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If you aren't satisfied with "(the attacker) had a “radical Islamist motive,” prosecutors CONFIRMED in a statement on Monday." [5] Note they are not alleging it, it doesn't say anywhere that it needs to be worked out in court, you are synthesizing that yourselves. Then there is really no more for us to say. We disagree :) Murchison-Eye (talk) 01:51, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think you quite understand what "innocent until proven guilty" means. A court determines whether the prosecution has brought sufficient evidence to identify the motive and submits a ruling to reflect that. The prosecution does not simply confirm its own claims...TheGracefulSlick (talk) 02:42, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I have never mentioned guilt or innocence, its not our place to decide if we personally agree with the German officials or not. It has been stated that the motive is 'confirmed' and wikipedia should reflect that. However I am outnumbered so lets leave it at that, we aren't getting anywhere.Murchison-Eye (talk) 03:43, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The Interior Minister said the suspect is an islamist. Uncontroversial. Read article. Undid revision 802085018 by TheGracefulSlick (talk)[edit]

Editors are deleting corroborating sources of that which the BBC said.
Hamburg's Interior Minister Andy Grote stated that the suspect "was known as an Islamist but not a jihadist".^[1]
It would be nice if people would read the article before deleting WP:RS. XavierItzm (talk) 22:32, 23 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ "Hamburg supermarket attacker 'was known Islamist'". BBC. 29 July 2017. Retrieved 9 August 2017.

Recent edit[edit]

I undid this edit diff; this is not suitable content for BLPs. K.e.coffman (talk) 22:33, 23 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Worth mentioning that User:K.e.coffman's rationale for deletion was "Hearsay; pls also see edit summary for the prev revert." "hearsay" is the Minister of the Interior? 22:40, 23 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

His neighbours thought he was an "islamist" (in quotation marks); this content is not suitable for inclusion in a case that's still under investigation. K.e.coffman (talk) 22:45, 23 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. I find it interesting that you write: «His neighbours thought he was an "islamist" (in quotation marks)», yet editor TheGracefulSlick wrote «Now you are just misrepresenting the sources. The residents complained about the disturbances he was causing.» XavierItzm (talk) 22:57, 23 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You are misrepresenting the source; you claim it said the residents warned management that Ahmed was an Islamist but the source actually described complaints for disturbances he caused. Current events such as this are incredibly sensitive and most be handled with careful research and an accurate description of the sources. Time and time again, however, I find I, or some other diligent editor, must clean up your edits. Please improve before this becomes an even bigger issue.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 00:47, 24 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The source reads, quote:
«The fact that they reported Ahmad to the hostel management on numerous occasions and no one reacted to their complaints, for example, makes them angry. Why did no one react? Why didn't the police watch him more closely when they knew he was an Islamist?»^[1]
Let anyone reading this judge the merits of the accusation made above. Emphasis added. XavierItzm (talk) 19:57, 25 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

^ JAAFAR ABDUL KARIM (7 August 2017). "Germany leaves frustrated young refugees alone". Die Zeit. Retrieved 23 September 2017. Why didn't the police watch him more closely when they knew he was an Islamist?

Requested move 28 June 2018[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved. Simplexity22 (talk) 15:27, 8 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

2017 Hamburg attack → 2017 Hamburg knife attack – Clarification. Plenty of non-terror attacks may have happened in the city. Gateshead001 (talk) 12:45, 28 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose I choose to oppose because WP:COMMONNAME. MayMay7 (talk) 08:01, 29 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support WP:COMMONNAME isn't relevant here but would actually support https://www.dw.com/en/hamburg-supermarket-attacker-charged-with-murder/a-41328584 per newspaper reports "knife attack". And this is more the style for terrorist attacks. Maybe an WP:ATTACK shortcut should indicate "20XX/city/weapon/attack".... now that the risk of these is part of everyday life. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:14, 29 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

[1] "Hamburg supermarket attacker 'was known Islamist'". BBC. 29 July 2017. Retrieved 9 August 2017.

[2] JAAFAR ABDUL KARIM (7 August 2017). "Germany leaves frustrated young refugees alone". Die Zeit. Retrieved 23 September 2017. Why didn't the police watch him more closely when they knew he was an Islamist?

[1]

[1]