Talk:2019 Beirut drone crash

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POV[edit]

This claims of Hezbollah is alleged it doesn't mean we should remove it.The Israeli claims reported by WP:RS and hence WP:DUE.--Shrike (talk) 15:58, 26 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Give a reliable source of that claim.Mr.User200 (talk) 15:59, 26 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Times of Israel [1] and ynet [2] --Shrike (talk) 16:05, 26 August 2019 (UTC)}[reply]

"The release of photographs of a drone that crashed in the Lebanese capital Beirut early Sunday morning cast doubt on the claim by the Hezbollah terror group that the craft belonged to the Israeli military, with some Israeli analysts speculating that the unmanned aerial vehicle was in fact an Iranian model."

Please avoid weasel Words. [WP:Alleged]Mr.User200 (talk) 16:08, 26 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:NPOV we bring both claims.The hezbollah has no proof that those drones are Israeli --Shrike (talk) 16:10, 26 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The second sources look fair to me. It clearly states the claim. Iam adding it dont worry.Mr.User200 (talk) 16:12, 26 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Better but my version is even better as it actually follows WP:NPOV and gives both claim equal weight as no one really knows what the WP:TRUTH is --Shrike (talk) 16:17, 26 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Those Israeli sources seem to have written the analyst early on, before the purpose of the attack, damage and Hezbollah response were announced. After their cover was blown Israeli media shifted towards accepting responsibility.[3] Even if the analyst you have given are true, Israel struck a second site in Lebanon the next day.(second time since 2006 counting this one) Therefore it makes this one more likely to be done by Israel. Bill497 (talk) 16:15, 26 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The meida cannot accept responsibility as it not a government but even you source write that "If Israel was behind this attack..." as it have no knowledge who behind it . --Shrike (talk) 16:32, 26 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That Israeli media article seems important too. Not all Israeli media point their fingers at Iran at all. I will fix that. Also, Shrike your edits are personal Research since Israel have declined to comment on the event. No formal accusation on Iran made.Mr.User200 (talk) 16:36, 26 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

We only report what the source say.They say that according Israeli analysts judging by photographs those were Iranian drones.Please read WP:RS and WP:NPOV -Shrike (talk) 16:45, 26 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes but we need a source indicating Israeli Government is accusing Iran if not its Personal Research, Plain and Simple.Mr.User200 (talk) 16:49, 26 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No where in source it says that "Israeli media" said something.Currently the article give one sided pro Lebanese POV. Please return the POV tag the problem was solved yet--Shrike (talk) 17:45, 26 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Future of the article.[edit]

I really dont know what going on, in the heads of some people regarding this article. Be patient lets wait until more information comes out, to make changes.Mr.User200 (talk) 18:43, 26 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I can't read your mind, either. Which people, what information, what changes? In general, articles should always only have verifiable content, in the future and the past, you're presumably right about that. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:55, 26 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

DEBKAfile as source?[edit]

Is DEBKAfile a reliable source? Really? The articles seem contradictory and speculative to me. Is it likely that a Harpy could be brought down by a kid with a rock? A photograph elsewhere clearly shows a four-propeller drone, clearly not a Harpy, and I don't find it likely that it would have the range to fly from Israel. The whole story is just a mess, with no plausible information or corroborating evidence from anyone.

Ketil (talk) 21:07, 26 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Why contradictory and ehy not plausible information?Mr.User200 (talk) 21:24, 26 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Debka is not WP:RS for example see this discussion at WP:RSN [4] --Shrike (talk) 12:19, 27 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Allegedly by Israel[edit]

Folks as far as I can see, Israel has not accepted that it did. Israel Media are alleging Iran did it. Whatever may be the case, we cannot say this in Wikipedia's voice. Accordingly I have added alleged in the infobox. Proper attributions need to be given for any statement alleging that Israel or Iran did it. Nothing should be added in wikipedia's voice here. --DBig Xrayᗙ 05:56, 27 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If "Israel Media" here means what "Some Israeli media" means in the Incident section, that's just Ron Ben-Yishai from the lead, and he's only alleging the drones were made in Iran. If making weapons for the international criminal market were a crime, profiteers wouldn't profit, and the children of mighty industrial nations would have to go back to subsisting on agriculture and mining by candlelight on horseback. Maybe that's a bit false, but the underlying point is not. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:41, 28 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Added two RS which attribute to Israel, not just allegedly. Wakari07 (talk) 02:07, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There are a lot of contradictory reports (Harpy vs pic of quadcopter, launched from Israel, launced from Israeli gunboats, Iranian, etc etc. None of this is particularly credible, IMO. Ketil (talk) 19:26, 1 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"3 people injured"[edit]

That's behind a paywall now (previously it was sourced to some private tweet [5] saying the info came from "Hezbollah", corroborated by an anonymous at hezbollah.liveuamap.com [6]), and I didn't touch that source nor am I able to verify it. Reuters clearly says there was only material damage [7], while AP News [8] (explicitly with reporters at the scene) and Al Jazeera [9] only mention material damage . This source claims 3 people injured [10]. It doesn't even matter who Prensa Latina is, I think I understand why they and the Financial Times seem to agree on this. At least Fidel Castro understands that information wants to be free and cites its sources, but "an anonymous inside Hezbollah" still doen't convince me. Haaretz blames the info on Lebanon's National News Agency [11], but among the many articles discussing the attack, I can't find any that mentions injured people. This is the official statement of the Lebanese Army to NNA: [12]. No mention of injuries. the nearest I come to a reliable source is this: 3 injured by falling disco ball at Beirut nightclub. Wakari07 (talk) 21:19, 27 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Anonymous sources from any purported organization are equally anonymous for roughly the same two reasons: fear of responsibility and reprisal or utter nonexistence. When contradicted by certain witnesses or official account, nobody always loses a reliability contest. But anybody you already know is real would lose a game of hide and seek to "them", so there are no overall winners here. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:58, 28 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

And my condolences to the other three. Maybe Lebanon will finally wake up to the fact that disco is an unfeeling irrational monster. Kick it out of its misery, like those nice Jewish boys did elsewhere. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:06, 28 August 2019 (UTC) [reply]