Talk:2023 AFC U-20 Asian Cup qualification

Welcome!

Thank you for checking in. This article needs expansion and you can contribute to it.Footy2000 (talk) 19:55, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

Group H's situation

Originally, Australia refused to travel to Iraq and would rather be disqualified rather than going to play in Basra. But Iraq were later stripped of hosting rights and now there is no confirmation about the host, making group H in limbo. People speculate Kuwait, but Kuwait has not taken any answer. India has not (and may be unclear due to conflicting schedule with the U-17 Women's World Cup). And even when Australia had withdrawn, there is still a possibility of Australia reversing this decision if appointed host by the AFC and may again send team to compete.

We don't know how the AFC works, considering its history of corruption. Back after the 2019 AFC Asian Cup semi-finals, when UAE lost 0–4 to Qatar and was followed by fan brawl, the AFC imposed the ban on fan attendance in two home matches in 2022 WCQ, but it lifted the ban a month before that happened without providing an answer of how and why. This means we can't underestimate the potential host or a potential Australian return. HiddenFace101 (talk) 05:40, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Please limit discussions on the talk page to the article itslef, and not speculation about the content to which the article refers, or to the machinations of decision-making processes that are irrelevant to this article. Matilda Maniac (talk) 00:01, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Emphasising disciplinary points

With disciplinary points first used in Russia 2018, it is now essential to have information about how many yellow or red cards in the game. Don't ignore it. HiddenFace101 (talk) 15:09, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Name problem regarding Zakarya Al-Taftoof

Hello @HiddenFace101 Can you please explain me the problem you are trying to explain in the edit summary. I think that the surname for the footballer is Al-Taftoof just like all the Arab surnames which is usually converted to Altaftoof. And thus Altaftoof which starts with 'A' should be above 'H', 'M' and 'N'. I am not talking about 'T' but the 'A'. Also, why do you think that 'Al' is not part of the name. If you think that 'Al' is not part of the name then is their a reason why you don't have problem with 'Qusai Al-Mansouri' 'Mohammed Al-Qashmi', 'Abdullah Al-Khalasi', 'Sultan Al-Sheyab', etc on this page. If you think that all of these should be updated as well, then do you think everything should be rearranged on 2022 FIFA World Cup qualification – AFC Second Round as well. If you think yes, then what to do here, since the name sorting has been automated here by initially planning the same (the script which sorts name on the above linked page sorts 'Al-Taftoof' as 'Altaftoof' with 'A'). Anbans 586 (talk) 17:04, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

The Arabs do not use "Al" to define the name. It's just honorary. When you talk about the Arab surnames, if someone has the word "Al" in front of its surname, ignore it, because it is honorary, not surname. That's the rule regarding surnames of the Arabs. HiddenFace101 (talk) 17:08, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

@HiddenFace101 I understand that. See when you are writing surnames, according to your argument, you should even use the parts like 'Taftoof', 'Mansouri' etc and not the full thing like Al-Taftoof, Al-Mansouri etc. Here we are just sorting names. When doing that, the names should be indexed in the order of the surname (that's what we are doing here), so conditions where the surname 'Darwish' comes before 'Al-Sharshani' become problematic since as a user I am trying to find 'Al-Sharshani' which starts with 'A'. Basically, the name sorting should be done in dictionary sorted format. I understand that 'Al' is honorary, but it is part of their name. Let's discuss it please. I am not reverting anything here, and you have been active on making on your own changes regarding this matter. Anbans 586 (talk) 17:21, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Well I won't blame anyone if they don't understand the Arab culture. Arab surname is rather unique because they are very difficult to guess. I used to make the same mistake, assuming "Al" or "El" as part of surname, until I realise this later (in Arabic, "Al" or "El" is equivalent to "the" in English). So when we talk about Arab surname, let's make sure that we don't make mistakes regarding the honorary title "Al" or "El". HiddenFace101 (talk) 17:24, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Hello @HiddenFace101 Please check into Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Arabic#Collation in alphabetical order, for how the manual of style has been discussed when sorting the surnames starting with 'Al'. Anbans 586 (talk) 20:30, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

For your definition, it [-al] is just "should not be ignored", but not to make it as a definition of a surname of a person. There is no law demanding the use of "al" to be used first in their names. This is why I agree that "Al-" should have been there and to stay, but we don't start with "Al-", but with the first letter after it (for instance, Al-Taftoof starts with Al-Taftoof, not Al-Taftoof. Did we require King Charles III to start with letter K if your suggestion of making honorary title a name or surname thing comes true? HiddenFace101 (talk) 02:22, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

See 'Al' here is not the same as what is used for other objects. For example 'al-kitab' means 'the book', the 'al' there is used to mean 'the', but with a person it is used to state that 'this is a person' and not 'the person'. Languages usually don't have the same meaning for a given word at every place, the meaning changes in accordance with how and where it is being used. For example 'Osama Bin Laden' means 'Osama son of Laden' but the 'Bin Laden' is considered as his surname as a whole and the name is always sorted using 'B' and not using 'L'. This is what the reference Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Arabic#Collation in alphabetical order and then eventually WP:NAMESORT says about the Arabic names. I think the confusion is mostly what 'Al' means, I think that you are mainly generalising the meaning of this, and that is what is creating the problem. Here is a list of Islamic honorifics and 'Al' clearly is not a part of it, it just a 'definite article' which should be ignored when we are not talking about people and should be used when we are talking about people. Anbans 586 (talk) 09:04, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Per WP:MCSTJR, In modern Arabic or Islamic names, the prefixes al and el, regardless of capitalization, are never part of a family name for indexing. For example, Osama Al-Muwallad is sorted {{DEFAULTSORT:Muwallad, Osama}} and Ezzat el Kamhawi is sorted {{DEFAULTSORT:Kamhawi, Ezzat}}. This has been my modus operandi for years. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 11:07, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Hey @Nehme1499 Is there a reason then about why 2019 WAFF Championship, 2019 AFC Asian Cup and almost all of the football pages which have Arabic names not used it or ever even rectified it? Anbans 586 (talk) 13:49, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Idk, I guess no one noticed. Those should be corrected as well per WP:MCSTJR. I'll rectify some when I get the time. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 13:52, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Actually, 2019 WAFF Championship orders the players without "Al". See the players with 2 goals: "Al-Khatib" is (correctly) below "Dabbagh". Nehme₁₄₉₉ 13:55, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

@Nehme1499 It does not apply to Al-Khatib and Dabbagh since Al-Khatib scored for Syria and Dabbagh for Palestine. Thus the reason why Al-Khatib is below Dabbagh is not because it is "indexed correctly" but because country takes precendce over surname when indexing this kind of list. While you are at it, why is that no one updated the Goalscorers module in such a way since the module automtically sorts on the basis of the country name. Also, if this is the case do you think that the same should be rectified on Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Arabic#Collation in alphabetical order as well? It feels weird that over all these many years no one noticed something like this, and when given a reference (the above mentioned manual which states alphabetization for Al-Qaeda should be done from 'A' and not 'Q') a counter reference is presented which invalidates the first reference. I believe that both of the references should contain the same thing to stay away from any kind of future possible discussions. Anbans 586 (talk) 14:10, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

I think it's a good idea to open a discussion at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Arabic and/or Wikipedia talk:Categorization of people to clear this up. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 14:21, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

@Nehme1499, @HiddenFace101 A notice for the discussion to be started regarding the same has been put on here - Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Arabic#Alphabetization.--Anbans 586 (talk) 15:04, 17 September 2022 (UTC)