Talk:50th Armored Division (United States)

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Untitled[edit]

--6. I would like to discuss the deletion of so much information that used to be here. I logged in many many years ago and loved to see my old unit posted with information listing the locations of the companies in the 113th mechanized infantry of the 50th AD

Untitled[edit]

Now it is erased. Memories gone. I was one of the last recruits in Riverdale, joined 1990. My brother also served in HQ in riverdale. HQ and Echo was in Riverdale, it has been to long for me to remember the where the other companies were located. would be nice if some one knew, and updated the post 3rd 113th mech inf 50th AD for short. SFC Beacher and SFC Revlant were NCOs there during my time from 1990-1992 67.86.197.192 (talk) 08:50, 18 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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FALSE references[edit]

Noclador, you have about 72 hours to remove all the lineage references from all the additions to the division articles you've been making, because lineages DO NOT SPECIFY which battalions are assigned to which brigades. Watching the sequence of your edits you can see you're working from a pre-existing source, not the lineages, as to which battalions are assigned to which brigades. Cite it, or watch me remove all the 1989 orders of battle!! YOU ARE FALSIFYING REFERENCES!!

Fix this, or at the 72 hour mark, I will post a detailed description of your lies at WT:MILHIST. FYI Nick-D Peacemaker67 Buckshot06 (talk) 13:44, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've just checked http://www.microarmormayhem.com/NATO_ORDER_OF_BATTLE_mod_8.doc. As I suspected, the list of battalions in 1st /2nd/3rd Brigades lines up exactly, as does for the divisional aviation brigade (that should be 'Combat Aviation Brigade, 50th Armored Division', according to CMH, though informally yes often called 4th Bde). Why did you not CITE the list of battalions in the line brigades? Why did you leave the citations off? You did for everything else!! Buckshot06 (talk) 14:05, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Buckshot06 - threats, personal attacks, accusation of falsifications, insults, ultimatums, article ownership. I see no reason to engage with such a rude personal attack. FYI: I am not working off microarmormayhem. And the information there lines up, because it is correct. When you are ready for a more constructive approach to improving the article, I will engage with you. Best regards, noclador (talk) 18:45, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nick-D and Peacemaker67 - if you have the time could you please have a look at the organization information below and let me know where the sourcing is still insufficient. Thank you, noclador (talk) 19:29, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Organization 1989[edit]

50th Armored Division 1989 (click to enlarge)
50th Armored Division (United States) is located in New Jersey
50th Armored Division
50th Armored Division
1st Brigade
1st Brigade
1-102nd Armor
1-102nd Armor
2-102nd Armor
2-102nd Armor
2-113 Infantry
2-113 Infantry
3-113 Infantry
3-113 Infantry
2nd Brigade
2nd Brigade
3-102nd Armor
3-102nd Armor
5-102nd Armor
5-102nd Armor
1-114 Infantry
1-114 Infantry
2-114 Infantry
2-114 Infantry
4th Brigade 1-150 Aviation
4th Brigade
1-150 Aviation
5-117 Cavalry
5-117 Cavalry
DIVARTY
DIVARTY
1-112 Field Art.
1-112 Field Art.
3-112 Field Art.
3-112 Field Art.
4-112 Field Art.
4-112 Field Art.
104 Engineer
104 Engineer
250 Signal
250 Signal
550 Mil. Intel.
550 Mil. Intel.
class=notpageimage|
50th Armored Division locations 1989:
1st Brigade units 2nd Brigade units 4th Brigade (Aviation) units
Division Artillery (DIVARTY) units Other units

At the end of the Cold War the division was a unit of the New Jersey Army National Guard, with a round-out brigade from the Texas Army National Guard. The division was organized according to the Army of Excellence table of organization and equipment:

  1. ^ "Brigadier General Kenneth F. Wondrack". National Guard Bureau. Retrieved 30 June 2020.
  2. ^ a b c d "102nd Cavalry Regiment Lineage". US Army Center of Military History. Retrieved 30 June 2020.
  3. ^ "Brigadier General Frank W. Dulfer". National Guard Bureau. Retrieved 30 June 2020.
  4. ^ a b "113th Infantry Regiment". National Guard Militia Museum of New Jersey. Retrieved 30 June 2020.
  5. ^ "Brigadier General William J. Marshall III". National Guard Bureau. Retrieved 30 June 2020.
  6. ^ "Brigadier General Frank R. Carlini". National Guard Bureau. Retrieved 30 June 2020.
  7. ^ a b "114th Infantry Regiment Lineage". US Army Center of Military History. Retrieved 30 June 2020.
  8. ^ a b c "A Brief History of the Texas National Guard after World War II". Texas Military Forces Museum. Retrieved 30 June 2020.
  9. ^ a b "133rd U.S. Field Artillery Regiment". Texas Military Forces Museum. Retrieved 30 June 2020.
  10. ^ "Department of the Army Historical Summary". Center of Military History. Retrieved 30 June 2020.
  11. ^ "Major General Darren G. Owens". National Guard Bureau. Retrieved 30 June 2020.
  12. ^ "117th Cavalry Regiment". National Guard Militia Museum of New Jersey. Retrieved 30 June 2020.
  13. ^ a b c d e f "Field Artillery - February 1987". US Army Field Artillery School. Retrieved 28 June 2020.
  14. ^ a b c d e f "Field Artillery - December 1989". US Army Field Artillery School. Retrieved 28 June 2020.
  15. ^ a b c d e f "Field Artillery - February 1990". US Army Field Artillery School. Retrieved 28 June 2020.
  16. ^ a b c "112th Field Artillery Regiment Lineage". US Army Center of Military History. Retrieved 30 June 2020.
  17. ^ a b c d e McKenney, Janice E. "Field Artillery - Army Lineage Series - Part 2" (PDF). US Army Center of Military History. Retrieved 28 June 2020.
  18. ^ "197th Fires Brigade Lineage - Annex 3". US Army Center of Military History. Retrieved 30 June 2020.
  19. ^ "42nd Support Group Lineage". US Army Center of Military History. Retrieved 30 June 2020.
  20. ^ "Air Defense Artillery" (PDF). US Army Center of Military History. Retrieved 30 June 2020.
  21. ^ "104th Engineer Battalion". National Guard Militia Museum of New Jersey. Retrieved 30 June 2020.
  22. ^ Raines, Rebecca Robbins. "Signal Corps" (PDF). US Army Center of Military History. Retrieved 28 June 2020.
  23. ^ "Military Intelligence, Volume 15, Issue 4". Military Intelligence Magazine October - December 1989. Retrieved 30 June 2020.
  24. ^ John Patrick Finnegan; Romana Danysh. "Military Intelligence" (PDF). US Army Center of Military History. Retrieved 22 June 2020.
  25. ^ a b "Justification of the budget estimates, Army - 1988". US Congress. Retrieved 30 June 2020.

Well, just examining the first two citations, the citation for 1st Battalion, 102nd Armor, Phillipsburg doesn't say that unit was part of the 1st Brigade, it just sources the fact that Wondrack was Executive Officer, Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 1st Battalion, 102nd Armor, New Jersey Army National Guard, Phillipsburg, New Jersey from May 86 to Sep 89, so it only tells us that 1st Battalion, 102nd Armor, New Jersey Army National Guard was in Phillipsburg, New Jersey from May 86 to Sep 89. You need a separate citation for the fact this battalion was part of the 1st Brigade in 1989. The second citation, that it was equipped with M60 Patton MBTs in 1989, is not in the source that I can see. Given this, I don't propose to go through the whole thing, but essentially the first one partly fails verification, and the second one completely fails. While the sources are reliable, this is a unacceptable standard of citation due to failed verification. WP:V is a core content policy, and must be complied with. The rest of this obviously needs to be checked for verification. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:43, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Peacemaker67. While I need to apologise unreservedly to Noclador for my tone and temper, this discrepancy is at the heart of what I was concerned about. The sources need to match what is being cited. *Only* microarmormayhem, in any of the post Isby & Kamps 1985 data that I have ever seen, tries to claim particular battalions are assigned to particular brigades. :If Noclador has an additional source which is not microarmormayhem, then tell us what it is; I do not understand what all the secrecy is about; better still, post it on the internet somewhere so the orbating community can examine it. Andy Johnson himself is working off screeds of 1980s official U.S. documentation, and Louis Vieuxbill writing his incredible British Army of Rhine magnum opus cites large number of official documents. What is the source? Without properly revealing the source, I will continue to have to point out these detailed inconsistencies!! Buckshot06 (talk) 08:52, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The equipment is not too hard to verify, however, and the listing of battalions by brigade is clearly from microarmormayhem. For example, it can be seen that 3rd Battalion, 102nd Armor converted from Pattons to M60A3s in 1989 from these newspaper clippings. Kges1901 (talk) 12:43, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Equipment is easy to source, because by May 1987 the M48 Patton was retired in all army / reserve / and national guard units, and all units, which did not receive M1 Abrams tanks had either M60A3 or M60A3 TTS tanks. The only National Guard units, which had for certain had received M1 Abrams were the 2-252, 1-198, 2-198, and 1-108 Armor. The same applies for the aviation units - Abrams units also received M2/M3 Bradley vehicles, while the M60A3 units remained with the M113. As per Army of Excellence TO&E the Cavalry units of the 4th Brigade had therefore a mix of AH-1 Cobra, OH-58 Kiowa, and M60A3, while the aviation units had AH-1 Cobra, OH-58 Kiowa and some UH-1 Iroquois. The AH-64 Apache was being introduced for units in Germany, Corps-aviation assets, and CONUS Abrams units first. The OH-58D Kiowa was earmarked for frontline units too. The second citation Peacemaker67 says "completely fails" isn't a source for the equipment, but only to show the unit was assigned to the division in 1989. The equipment listed is as per Army of Excellence TO&E, which all active units, all round out brigades, and the 29th, 35th, 40th, 49th, and 50th National Guard divisions were organized according to. noclador (talk) 16:52, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
If it is easy to source, cite it. If the citation is for what you say it is for, it is in the wrong place, and currently wrongly indicates that it is citing the tank. You need to do much better. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:23, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Noclador: For equipment, just add a source stating that all NG units had M60A3s by then and for M113s that it was the standard APC and that infantry battalions were equipped with APCs. Kges1901 (talk) 12:54, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I have just removed 5-102 Armor from the listing of the 1st Brigade. Of the three sources, one is a lineage, which lists 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 5th Battalions as elements of the division in 1975, but says nothing subsequent to that regarding battalions until 1991; one is a general officer bio that substantiates Dover as the battalion location, but does not give a brigade assignment; and the third is the 1988 annual report, that only mentions 5-102 Armor with a planned deployment to Fort Drum, NY, from 14 - 28 July 1990. None of these references makes any claims about which brigade 5-102 Armor was assigned to in 1989. I will copy this note to the main talk page. Buckshot06 (talk) 07:27, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The source lists the division's past and future training deployments. I.e.:

  • HHC 2nd Bde, 2-102 AR, 3-102 AR, 2-114 IN, 1-114 IN Fort Drum 12-27 Aug 89
  • HHC 1st Bde, 5-102 AR, 1-102 AR, 2-113 IN 1-113 AR [sic] [to] Fort A.P. Hill 3-18 Jun 88 (1-113 AR seems to be an error, as a 113th Armor was constituted only 4 May 1992 in the Iowa National Guard (see page 30), and the division had the 3-113 at Riverdale. If you search for "Riverdale" in the source it gives you three entries about the "3RD BN 113TH INF" being based there).

If that is not good enough as source, strip the data out. noclador (talk) 08:35, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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