Talk:Aaron Klein/Archive 1

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Edit warring

The anonymous person who has been deleting unfavorable information from this entry calls such information "inaccurate," but no evidence has ever been offfered to contradict it. As long as this information continues to be deleted without cause by those unwilling to identify themselves or offer any legitimate reason for doing so, I will continue to restore it. I believe the full story of Aaron Klein's reporting needs to be told; those who believe otherwise are hiding behind anonymity to censor this entry. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tkrepel (talk • contribs) 12 August 2006.

The neutral point of view is a fundamental Wikipedia principle. Unregistered users are well-advised to:

  • 1. Refrain from reverting neutral statements of fact.
  • example: "Subject is an American radio host" is neutral language appropriate to an encyclopedia.
  • example: "Subject is known to millions on top radio programs" is not.
  • 3. Register, and adhere to these quite reasonable standards with more credibility.

Athaenara (talk) 06:10, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Removing sentence pursuant to WP:BLP

WP:BLP is the Wikipedia policy on Biography of Living Persons. "Editors should remove any controversial material about living persons that is either unsourced, relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Wikipedia:Reliable sources, or is a conjectural interpretation of a source."

I'm removing unsourced material from the main article and moving it to the talk page. What caught my eye was the phrase 'some left-wing critics' which I've seen referred to as 'weasel-wording' elsewhere on Wikipedia. Negative comments should be attributed to an actual source.

"Some left-wing critics of Klein's reporting have accused Klein of bias, citing as examples his heavy criticism of Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and his apparent sympathy toward Israeli settlers in Gaza and the West Bank who oppose Olmert's policy of Israeli withdrawal from those areas."

If someone can get a source for these comments, please restore the above to the article, with attribution. Also don't call them left-wing critics, give their names. (If they call themselves 'left-wing critics' then that's OK, but it seems unlikely that's how they refer to themselves).

Klein's political views appear sufficiently original that any simply pigeon-holing of either his views or those of his opponents may be unwise. EdJohnston 21:50, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

"Major scoops" sections deleted

This isn't notable and the citations don't establish the claim that it was "first reported," or even credible, but simply that it was on WorldNetDaily. This article looks like an advertisement than an encyclopedia article. It needs a complete re-write. I'm deleting the two sections containing lists of "scoops," and requesting a re-write.

Case in point, this text right here: Following is a list of some of several hundred exclusive stories Klein broke on WorldNetDaily that went on to make national/international news in 2005

Well, the first story is about the Eastern Orthodox leader, Theofilos III. I can't find ANY other articles on it, aside from WorldNetDaily. And with all of these supposed "scoops," I'm sort of wondering whether this guy is like a Jewish Stephen Glass. Robocracy 01:24, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Reading over the rest of the article, some other sections had to be removed. Quite frankly, this article looked like advertising and it appears to have largely been written by Aaron Klein himself and others from WorldNetDaily.com. Robocracy 01:31, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
There is no legitimate reason for the removal of the "in the news" section. It was restored and will continue to be restored. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.118.11.112 (talk) 12 November 2006
Anonymous user 192.118.11.112, you can't simply tell people on Wikipedia how a certain article is going to be, because this site is based upon consensus and collaboration, not domination. Your edits and the others with you (assuming they aren't sockpuppets) are obviously not a NPOV and you're filling this article with promotional material. You didn't read the talk page before and even now, you aren't even explaining your edits. Please stop. Robocracy 04:55, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Please stop erasing 'In the news' section claiming it is inaccurate material. This is biographical material appropriate for a Wiki article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.118.11.112 (talk)

Here is one sentence you've added to the article:

He is known to millions of Americans for his regular segments and commentary on some of America's top radio programs.

Here is another sentence:

Klein's article, "Mideast terror leaders to U.S.: vote Democrat," became one of the most talked about topics on American radio and on American cable news channels prior to the elections.

And your only sources are pages from WorldNetDaily.com. Do I really need to explain how this is spam? You need to break the contract with whoever is paying you because Wikipedia policy does not allow commercial entities to use articles as advertising, hence you will not be successful in writing a promotional article for Aaron Klein, and if that is the requirement by said contract for you to get paid, then such contract would be void and I suggest you stop now for your own benefit. And if you are Aaron Klein himself, this is highly immature and surely someone of your caliber has better things to do than spam Wikipedia with extravagantly embellished descriptions of yourself. Robocracy 02:53, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Lets then discuss this.
Your first issue is with: "He is known to millions of Americans for his regular segments and commentary on some of America's top radio programs
This is indeed accurate -- Klein was a co-host for nearly two years for ABC Radio's national John Batchelor Show (nightly audience: 5 million, the show is on break for three months); and he is currently featured at least once a week on the following radio shows: Rusty Humphries (audience 5 million); G. Gordon Liddy (audience 3 million); Tammy Bruce (audience 1 million); Michael Savage (audience 10 million). In addition, Sean Hannity (audience 12 million) and Rush Limbaugh (audience 13 million) mention him frequently. It is fair to state milliona of listeners of conservative American radio in the U.S. are familiar with Klein. Hence the statement "Klein is known to millions..." is entirely accurate.
Next you take issue with the following: Klein's article, "Mideast terror leaders to U.S.: vote Democrat," became one of the most talked about topics on American radio and on American cable news channels prior to the elections.
Your issue is this is only documented with a WorldNetDaily article. Did you bother to actually read the WND article? It contains all the necessary links to some of the media that discussed Klein's article. It documents how the article was discussed on multiple Fox News shows (and links to the Fox News website) in the days before the election, and repeatedly was a main topic on America's top radio programs. Klen himself was a guest on all the above-mentioned programs (the show spots were plugged in WND articles) plus on dozens of local stations across the U.S. to discuss the article. A simple Google News search on the topic will also find Klein's article was made into multiple editorials and oped at such publications as National Review and several local U.S. newspapers.
If you have any other specific issues, I'd be happy to address them. Lastly I assure you this is not Aaron Klein. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.1.187.177 (talk • contribs) 15:57, 16 November 2006 (UTC).
To stop the bickering, the paragraph was changed to: Klein's article, "Mideast terror leaders to U.S.: vote Democrat," was discussed on cable news networks and became a popular topic on American radio prior to the elections. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.1.187.177 (talk • contribs) 16:04, 16 November 2006 (UTC).

This is a ridiculous argument. The language used in this article, even now, is so clearly biased that no rational, neutral party could deny that this isn't some kind of attempt at marketing. Your edits go beyond simply a non-NPOV and furthermore, you keep removing my request for rewrite tag without consensus. Robocracy 04:16, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Mr. no-NPoV is back

He's been at it again during the past week. I waited for awhile to see if he'd learned anything from the strong opposition to his activities, but what was finally becoming a good encyclopedia article is being corrupted once again into quasi-journalistic advertising puffery. Recent registrant MikeJason has figured out how to get around the semiprotection. As can be seen from his contributions page, this is the only article he edits.

I am removing the obvious bits ("popular" "well-reported" "top-rated") and leaving the lengthy "Miscellaneous" section (some of which is appropriate, most of which is not) alone for now—perhaps someone else would like to take that on. –Æ. ✉ 13:16, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikification/details: Klein's date of birth is not given in this article. Too many external links to WorldNetDaily, not enough links to news sites not directly related to it. Could find no evidence that Boston Globe or Washington Post carried Klein's "My Weekend With the Enemy" article. Trimmed Syria/visa and Democrats/withdrawal passages of lengthy quotes from twice-linked news article (citations remain); each now a single paragraph. –Æ. 11:50, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

response to latest call for edits

1) The Jewish Press is well-known to be the largest weekly Jewish newspaper. There is no competition that comes close to its circulation. Do a simple internet search, and stop deleting that it is the largest Jewish newspaper.

2) Klein only appears on top 20 radio programs, as rated by Talkers Magazine, the official radio magazine. He is featured on 6 of the top 10 programs regularly thoughout the week. It is appropriate to state he is on top radio programs.

3) Klein's article, "My weekend with the enemy" indeed was featured in the Jerusalem Post, Boston Globe and Washington Post. Unfortunately, many 1999 archives are not still on the Internet; also the article title was changed for each newspaper, so a search under "My Weekend with the enemy" will not yield all the results. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.1.187.177 (talk) 15:39, 19 December 2006 (UTC).

1) As noted in The Jewish Press article, it bills itself as the largest independent weekly Jewish newspaper in the United States. There is no purpose (other than non-encyclopedic promotion) in repeating the claim in an article about one of its columnists. I suggest that you research the circulation figures and add them to the article about the newspaper.
2) Advertising-style language such as "top" and "top-rated" is appropriate in press releases, not in encyclopedia articles.
3) If "the article title was changed for each newspaper," what were the other titles? Athænara ✉ 18:15, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Single purpose accounts 1

→ See Talk:Aaron Klein/Archive 1#Single purpose accounts 2 - count is up to twenty now. 01:24, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Sixteen single purpose accounts (four registered, the rest not) used by Aaron Klein and (very likely) by his boss Joseph Farah and others at WND (Wikipedia:Sock puppetry) to edit the Aaron Klein article:

  • Example: Sequence of edits in the same day by three of the nine users/IPs:
1. 13:34, 17 March 2006 (UTC): last edit by Jerusalem211
2. 15:35, 17 March 2006 (UTC): first edit by 195.93.60.342
3. 20:53, 17 March 2006 (UTC): first edit by 192.118.11.1123
1. 13:22, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
2. 15:35, 17 March 2006 (UTC) (Added birthdate)
3. 15:36, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
4. 00:19, 21 March 2006 (UTC) (Removed birthdate)

Additional data on anonymous accounts

Images

Image:Aksuit1.jpg added to article 13:33, 17 March 2006 (UTC).
Image:Rice9090.jpg added to article 23:19, 2 September 2006 (UTC).
Image:Brigadesklein.jpg added to article 23:24, 2 September 2006 (UTC).
Image:Talibanbreak.jpg "changed image name" 23:31, 2 September 2006 (UTC).
Image:Kleineditor.jpg added to article 23:38, 2 September 2006 (UTC).
Image:Kleineditor.gif changed in article 23:39, 2 September 2006 (UTC).
Image:Kleinedit.jpg added to article 00:04, 3 September 2006 (UTC).
Image:Kleinedit1.jpg added to article 00:07, 3 September 2006 (UTC).
Image:Aarontaliban.jpg uploaded, added to article 15:19, 5 September 2006 (UTC).
Image:Kleinbrigades.jpg uploaded, added to article 15:24, 5 September 2006 (UTC).
Image:Aaronhamas.jpg added to article 15:29, 5 September 2006 (UTC).
Image:Aaronhamas4.jpg added to article 01:27, 6 September 2006 (UTC).
Image:Hamasaaron.jpg added to article 01:34, 6 September 2006 (UTC).
Image:Aaronaqsa.jpg added to article 01:46, 6 September 2006 (UTC).
Image:Hamasaaron1.jpg added to article 10:24, 7 September 2006 (UTC).
Image:Aqsaaaron2.jpg added to article 21:17, 30 September 2006 (UTC).
Image:Aksuit1.jpg added to article 15:19, 21 January 2007 (UTC).
Image:Aaronklein21 uploaded (see below*), added to article 15:30, 21 January 2007 (UTC).

Identification as Aaron Klein

In the Image:Aaronklein21.jpg upload* file, "SandyBMW" identified himself as Aaron Klein:

"10:30, 21 January 2007 (UTC) … SandyBMW (Talk | contribs) … 70×123 (5,234 bytes)
"== Summary == From WorldNetDaily.
"== Fair use for Aaron Klein == … from: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/speakers/aklein.asp …
"This is Aaron Klein of WorldNetDaily, holder of the copyright. … " (Emphasis added.)

February 2007 status of the article

Nearly 100% of the content of the article was contributed by its subject and, perhaps, also by his employer Joseph Farah, founder and editor of World Net Daily (WND). The references in the article, with very few exceptions, are:

  • Links to articles on the WND website,
  • Links to reprints of WND articles on the Y Net News website.

One solution—a modest proposal ...

  • After removing the tags (primary sources, autobiography, etc) from the article as per Wikipedia:Userfication, move it in its present form to the userspace of one of the Aaron Klein sockpuppets.
  • Extract the bare encyclopedic bones from the present highly POV/COI content, leaving a smaller page in the article name space.

There could also be a disambiguation page for the name but, as Ed Johnston once pointed out, there are no Wikipedia articles for any of the others among the following:

  • Aaron Klein—one of the "Ghosts of Gold Hill", murdered in 1842 in the Randolph Mine on Gold Hill, near Concord, North Carolina, in what is now the Charlotte metropolitan area.
  • Aaron Klein—mathematician, PH.D. (1966) Hebrew University of Jerusalem.
  • Aaron Klein—designer of "Body War" (an AIDS medical educational game in which "human immunity cells struggle against invading viruses, bacteria and tumors") 1986, BT Games.
  • Aaron Klein—member of Sierra College Board of Trustees (as of 2004).
  • Aaron Klein—candidate, 2006, Montgomery County, District 20, Maryland House of Delegates; chief economist, five years, for Maryland State Senator Paul Sarbanes' Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs Committee.
  • Aaron Klein—reporter, World Net Daily.
  • Aaron J. Klein, not a WND reporter but military and intelligence affairs correspondent in the Jerusalem bureau of Time magazine and author of a book about the Munich Massacre, Striking Back: The 1972 Munich Olympics Massacre and Israel's Deadly Response, Random House. Hardcover (2005): ISBN 1-400-06427-9, ISBN 978-1-40006-427-4. Paperback (2007): ISBN 978-0-8129-7463-8, ISBN 0-8129-7463-8.
  • Aaron J. Klein—Co-translator (with Jenny Machlowitz Klein) of Eliyahu Ashtor's The Jews of Moslem Spain. Volume 1 (1992) Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society of America. Volumes 2 and 3 (1993) Lightning Source, Inc. Paperback: ISBN 0-827-60428-9.
→ Probably not the guy we've been dealing with here, either, even if it was published in Philadelphia. If he were, wouldn't he have said so? (Or perhaps he is and will soon tell us.)

Updated. Expanded on what I posted here 19:20, 22 January 2007 (UTC) nearly a month ago. — Athænara ✉ 07:28, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Nuts. I cleared out everything that relied solely on WND and ynetnews WND reprints as citations and near-stubbified the article. I kept one photo and jettisoned the other, which was not dated and could have been nearly anyone, anywhere, anytime. With all the editing experience the AK socks (Klein and Farah?) have accumulated on Wikipedia, surely they know by now that if they want to keep their unencyclopedic COI POV autobiographical promotional handout on Wikipedia they can retrieve it from the diffs in the article history and plant it in one of their userspaces. — Athænara ✉ 11:31, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

One of these accounts has added a link to Aaron Klein from the Meir Amit page. It is a factual (if insignificant) addition, so I would feel awkward deleting it, but this should obviously be watched in case Aaron Klein links start showing up everywhere. Joshdboz 23:32, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
You're right, that addition was by 192.118.11.120 (talk · contribs). — Athænara ✉ 14:10, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Excessive linkage

The external links section today, 13:22, 23 January 2007 (UTC), the tip of the links iceberg:

  1. [http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/archives.asp?AUTHOR_ID=239 Aaron Klein's article archive]
  2. [http://www.worldnetdaily.com/speakers/aklein.asp Aaron Klein's bio page]
  3. Klein barred from Syria
  4. [http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47297 Klein/Humphries radio interview with Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades]
  5. [http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47827 Leaders of Lebanon condemn Syria over Klein snub]
  6. Klein served as college newspaper editor-in-chief
  7. NY Times article on Klein
  8. "WorldNetDaily's Digitial Cudgel," ConWebWatch, August 24, 2006
  9. "WorldNetDaily Undermines Olmert: Biased WND reporter Aaron Klein is portraying the Israeli incursion into Gaza negatively in order to attack Israel's prime minister," ConWebWatch, July 12, 2006

A closer look at those links

World Net Daily

  • 1. [http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/archives.asp?AUTHOR_ID=239 World Net Daily] archive of Aaron Klein articles.
  • 2. [http://www.worldnetdaily.com/speakers/aklein.asp World Net Daily] "Speakers and Talk Show Guests" description of Aaron Klein's merits for hire as such a speaker or guest.
  • 3. World Net Daily reprint on Y Net News (Yedioth Internet), headlined "Jewish reporter denied entry to Syria," bylined "Joseph Farah, WND," of [http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47806 World Net Daily] article, "U.S. reporter denied entry to Syria because he's a Jew: Aaron Klein, ABC Radio's John Batchelor to broadcast tonight from Amman, Jordan," by Joseph Farah, Editor and CEO of World Net Daily, December 8, 2005 © 2005 WorldNetDaily.com.   → n.b.: Every ynetnews.com article cited in Aaron Klein is a WND reprint.
  • 4. [http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47297 World Net Daily] article, "Jerusalem chief, radio host visit gun-toting terrorists: Bombings, Lewinsky discussed in chat with Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades." No author named. "Posted: November 8, 2005 3:00 p.m. Eastern © 2005 WorldNetDaily.com." (Includes Kleinbrigades.jpg)
  • 5. [http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47827 World Net Daily] article, "Lebanese leaders blast Syria's Klein snub Say rejection of reporter's visa 'new level of depravity'" No author named. "Posted: December 9, 2005 6:50 a.m. Eastern © 2005 WorldNetDaily.com"

College days

Critical

Additional criticism

A larger assortment (full titles) here, all by Terry Krepel, among others found by searching on Con Web Watch. Appropriately, as nearly every article cited in the auto-bio was authored by its single subject, these critical articles also have a single author:

  • "Where the Killer is a Victim: Why does WorldNetDaily have as its Jerusalem reporter someone who is so cozy with a militant Jewish movement that he whitewashes and obscures its history of violence and extremism?" 12 August 2005, Terry Krepel
  • "World Net Daily's Junk Journalism: Its founder and editor is a thief. Its reporters obediently do the bidding of conservative groups. Is this any way to run a news organization?" 12 September 2005, Terry Krepel
  • "The Masters of World Net Daily: What are the links between WND and an evangelist and radio mogul who has been accused of being a cult leader?" 19 April 2006, Terry Krepel
  • "Aaron Klein's Terrorist Buddies: Another election, another excuse for WorldNetDaily's Jerusalem reporter to try to link Democrats to terrorists. Do the terrorists Klein quotes know he's using them, or are they a party to his game?" 6 November 2006, Terry Krepel
  • "Implications Have Consequences: WorldNetDaily's Aaron Klein implies that Fox News paid a $2 million ransom for two kidnapped journalists—then denies that he implied it." 22 November 2006, Terry Krepel

In re accounts and links above: I'm just supplying information here. — Athænara ✉ 13:22, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Related controversy at Talk:WorldNetDaily

See Talk:WorldNetDaily and its Talk:WorldNetDaily/Archive_1 for more furor involving Aaron Klein. The WorldNetDaily article does have a lot of citations of Terry Krepel's work, but I have questions about using blogs in a reference list. The credibility of both WorldNetDaily and ConWebWatch as sources might have to be checked out using WP:RS. EdJohnston 19:35, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

removed tag

I removed tag claiming 'factual accuracy' of the article is in dispute. There is not a single sentence that can be proven factually inaccurate. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.1.146.35 (talk) 16:52, 7 February 2007 (UTC).

This article is still awaiting printed references. Blogs and activist websites are not reliable sources per WP:RS. Until such time as good references are provided, the whole article must be considered unconfirmed, and the accuracy banner is fair. See Wikipedia:Accuracy_dispute:

The accuracy of an article may be a cause for concern if:

  • it contains a lot of unlikely information, without providing references.
  • it contains information which is particularly difficult to verify.
  • in, for example, a long list, some errors have been found, suggesting that the list as a whole may need further checking.
  • it has been written (or edited) by a user who is known to write inaccurately on the topic.

There are not even any printed sources for basic biographical details on Aaron Klein's life. It's not up to us to prove things accurate. If you want something kept in the article, document it. (This is from WP:V). EdJohnston 17:08, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Added sources/removed tag

Added third party sources to verify "constoversy" section. The links may be reprints of WorldNetDaily articles but they are published in Ynetnews, which is the website for Yediot Aharonot, Israel's largest circulation print daily. Also the original WorldNetDaily articles themselves are acceptable as third-party sources anyway as WorldNetDaily is not a blog but a news werbsite accredited by both the White House and the Israeli Government Press Office. WorldNetDaily articles would suffice here as 3rd party since this article is not about WorldNetDaily but Aaron Klein. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.118.11.112 (talk) 00:26, 20 February 2007 (UTC).

Hello 192.118.11.112. Since you've now been here a number of times, would you consider logging in with a regular account? The many apparently-furtive changes using different IP addresses give the impression you would like to make changes without being detected. (It's hardly likely that there are 23 different anonymous editors that all have the same point of view, and collectively edit only one article). It seems likely you are affiliated with Aaron Klein, or at least know him personally. It would make sense for you to take a higher profile on Wikipedia and step up to the plate as a real editor, with a name. You might then be in a position to make deals with the regular editors about the future of the article. It's hard for us to make deals with someone who logs in with a different account every week. EdJohnston 03:32, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
He returned as MikeJason (talk | contribs) to re-enact the same WP:COI edit, including removal of the {{Primarysources}} and the addition of a YNet reprint of a WND article, with the edit summary "signed in with an account name, now which deals do you want to make; this text is fine"—what do you suppose he's really after? — Athænara ✉ 13:20, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Controversies

  • " (diff) (hist) . . Aaron Klein‎; 22:45, 6 March 2007 (UTC)  (+1,618) . . 192.118.11.120 (Talk) (added controvercies [sic]; dont give me that crap it's not verified, it was covered by Fox News and others, do a Google search and stop erasing) "

There are several things wrong with this edit and edit summary.

  • It added material which had been removed on the encyclopedic grounds that it had been in the article for many months without reliable sourcing.
  • It included three additional links to the subject's website, which site is already in the external links section.
  • It was accompanied by an uncivil edit summary which inappropriately attempted to require other editors to support the subject's conflict of interest edits.
  • It was in violation of several Wikipedia policies and guidelines:
Wikipedia:Attribution
Wikipedia:Civility
Wikipedia:Conflict of interest
Wikipedia:Disruptive editing
Wikipedia:External links
Wikipedia:Neutral point of view
Wikipedia:Tendentious editing     … — Athænara ✉ 00:57, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

"Editors should provide attribution for quotations and for any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or it may be removed. The burden of evidence lies with the editor wishing to add or retain the material." — Wikipedia:Attribution Policy (emphasis added) — Æ. ✉ 03:24, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Obtain Wikipedia:Attribution before adding. — Æ. ✉ 01:52, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Third party references were added from Investors Daily, National Review online and Yediot Aharonot. As already noted, even WorldNetDaily.com articles would suffice as a 3rd party sources since this Wiki article is not about WorldNetDaily, but one of its writers, who also writes for other publications and is heard on the radio. A browsing, for example, of Wiki articles for Fox News personalities finds many souces for material from Fox News' own reporting. A look at personalities from CNN finds CNN news online articles listed as 3rd party sources. This is legitimate since the articles in question are not about Fox News or CNN. Ragardless, third party sources were added to KLein's entry. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.138.166.212 (talk) 20:20, 10 March 2007 (UTC).

New paragraphs from User:Tkrepel seem to lack reliable sources

I suggest that User:Tkrepel's new material lacks the support of reliable sources, since it has to appeal to Conwebwatch and Worldnetdaily as references. Was the alleged bad behavior of Aaron Klein covered in any major media? Also, I don't see the interest to our readership of an extensive byplay between two political web sites with opposing views. We ought to be offering the basic biographical facts about Aaron Klein, and I think we've done that. Readers who are eager for more details can go to the respective web sites, that we list in the references. I'm not even sure that the section about 'Klein excluded from Syria' has enough interest to be included in Wikipedia, but I would consider recommending that we restore the version that incorporates that. The Pelosi story appears more substantive. And, from that we may surely conclude that Klein is no longer excluded from Syria. EdJohnston 06:06, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Allow me to throw myself in here. As the editor of ConWebWatch, I think that I offer legitimate commentary on Aaron Klein. (As ConWebWatch is narrowly focused on conservative news websites, I am probably the only person writing about Klein on a regular basis, so commentary about him by sources other than myself and WorldNetDaily is difficult to come by.) I think that my articles speaks for themselves; my claims about him are fully documented and supported, and they come from a journalistic perspective rather than an ideological one. The fact is that Klein is a biased reporter, and I would like to see that reflected in a way that balances out the current puffery of the article and, also, meet Wiki standards as well as attempts by Klein's sock puppets to delete any negative information about him. I would be happy to do what I can to help achieve a fully rounded bio of Klein. Tkrepel 04:37, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
At present ConWebWatch does not appear to meet Wikipedia's definition of a reliable source. See WP:RS. Our guidelines tend to regard most web sites as 'self published' and lacking the control of a neutral editorial staff. Since you follow the work of Aaron Klein, you may be aware of mainstream press coverage of his doings, and any quotes from the mainstream press that you find would serve as reliable sources. If the regular press doesn't cover Aaron Klein very much, then that is a vote on which items are notable enough to cover, and we should accept it. EdJohnston 15:01, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

To illustrate the problem of finding sources or references that appear in credible, third-party publications to improve this article, I searched Google News today with "Aaron Klein" as the search string.

Only two of the thirty four results were not direct links to the WND website.

Of the two exceptions, one[1] did not duplicate WND content. The other[2] said Klein broke a story "in the Yediot newspaper," which is Yedioth Ahronoth.

As veterans of this article know, Yedioth Ahronoth operates Ynetnews which (as[3] in this[4] case) reprints many WND stories. And so it goes. — Athaenara ✉ 05:07, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

  1. ^ Aaron Klein (30 May 2007). "Quick Takes: News From Israel You May Have Missed" (html). Jewish Press. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
  2. ^ David Bedein (15 May 2007). "Hamas Ambushed U.S. Convoy, Seized Weapons For Fatah" (html). Philadelphia Bulletin. Journalist Aaron Klein, a native of Philadelphia, Israel bureau chief of World Net Daily, writing in the Yediot newspaper in Israel, broke the story yesterday… {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
  3. ^ Aaron Klein (14 May 2007). "Hamas seizes US weapons" (html). Ynetnews. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
  4. ^ Aaron Klein (14 May 2007). [http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55682 "Hamas seizes U.S. weapons"] (html). World Net Daily. {{cite news}}: Check |url= value (help); Check date values in: |date= (help)

added book section

Klein's books is his most high profile venture and absolutely deserves a section; it's been widely covered by the media, including newspapers, CNN, Fox News and celebrity gossip columns and television shows. As well, there is no debate as to the book title and subtitle. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.200.87.76 (talk) 04:20, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Everyone has a book these days. Its not enough to merit a wiki entry. Furthermore, Klein's most high profile venture is, by far, the story he manufactured (and later retracted) about a conspiracy theory entry on Obama's wikipedia page that keeps getting removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.123.160.138 (talk) 16:42, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Birthdate

Last year, the information "born August 29, 1979" was added (15:35, 17 March 2006 UTC) and removed (00:19, 21 March 2006 UTC) by someone who was using the anon IP 195.93.60.34. I don't know how important it is. Any views on what should be done with it? — Athaenara ✉ 03:20, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

George Galloway

The Galloway story was reported widely on Fox News, including on 3 Fox News shows. It is not in dispute regardless of the reliability of WorldNetDaily -- the entire episode was recorded on audio played on Fox News and readily available on the Internet. The fiasco will be re-written to reflect a more Wiki-style but it would be unfair editorial practice to delete. You can instead suggest alternate phraseology. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.139.71.40 (talk) 20:23, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

This is the content discussed above:
Booted from British Parliament building
During an argument over whether Hamas is a terrorist organization, Klein was reportedly abruptly dismissed from the British lawmaker George Galloway’s London office and handed over to Parliament police. Galloway claimed Klein was a "Zionist operative" who had breached security by falsely presenting himself as a reporter. [1] [http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=58924]
The entire incident, which occurred in June 25, 2007, was recorded on audio tape. The fifteen minute sound file was released on the Internet and played on Fox News Channel. [http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=58962]
Klein interviewed Galloway along with national radio host Rusty Humphries. After Klein repeatedly referred to Hamas as a terror group during his interview with Galloway, the Scottish politician accused Klein of conducting a "political broadcast on behalf of the Zionist movement," stating "Hamas is a legitimate liberation movement." Galloway argued Hamas' suicide bombings against Israeli soldiers and settlers is morally justified.
The politician handed Klein and Humphries to the parliamentary police, who briefly detained the two until they could verify Klein and Humphries were reporters and not operatives that infiltrated parliament security.
The issue here is what is encyclopedic. Two of the three inline external links are to WorldNetDaily, the other is to The Jewish Press, for which Klein also writes, with almost exactly the same text. I searched for the Fox News Channel coverage which was claimed and could not find any except on the sites linked above and on blogs. — Athaenara ✉ 06:30, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Klein on Hannity's America

KLein's booting from British parliament was a major event covered extensively by Fox News Channel and dozen's of top U.S. radio shows with audiences in the millions. It absolutely deserves mention. Please re-load it. Regarding coverage, this blog detail's Klein's Fox interview: [2]

As well: 1) How can you unilaterally decide WorldNetDaily, a news website, is not reliable? 2) The event is not in question. The entire episode was recorded on audio tape. The audio is available within this article: [http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=58924] 3) The Jewish Press is a respectable U.S. Jewish newspaper and also reported on the issue. 4) You are using unfair criterea in ruling out WorldNetDaily on Klein's page. A brief review of other reporters pages finds multiple instances in which the only source is the very newspaper/website that employs the reporter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Israelafriat (talk • contribs) 00:40, 9 December 2007 (UTC) 5) Even if you view WorldNetDaily as an "extremist" website, which it is not, Wiki rules specifically state such a source IS allowed if the article is about/related to the source: "Extremist sources Organizations and individuals that are widely acknowledged as extremist, whether of a political, religious or anti-religious, racist, or other nature, should be used only as sources about themselves and their activities in articles about themselves, and even then with caution." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Israelafriat (talk • contribs) 00:46, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Single purpose accounts 2

Nearly thirty single-purpose accounts, four registered, the rest not. Some very obviously used by Aaron Klein and (very likely) by his boss Joseph Farah and others at WND (Wikipedia:Sock puppetry) to edit the Aaron Klein article:

  1. 192.118.11.112 (talk · contribs) Most active (100+ edits) March 2006 to September 2007 (blocked one week, September 2007)
  2. 192.118.11.120 (talk · contribs) January - September 2007 (blocked one week, September 2007)
  3. 89.138.145.173 (talk · contribs) March 2008
  4. 89.139.71.40 (talk · contribs) December 2007
  5. 85.250.52.28 (talk · contribs) December 2007
  6. 217.132.208.208 (talk · contribs) November 2007
  7. 85.250.34.238 (talk · contribs) - October 2007
  8. 69.200.87.76 (talk · contribs) - October 2007
  9. 89.138.148.164 (talk · contribs) - August 2007
  10. 85.250.13.52 (talk · contribs) (?) - August 2007
  11. 217.132.254.31 (talk · contribs) - July 2007
  12. 217.132.10.198 (talk · contribs) - June 2007
  13. 217.132.141.207 (talk · contribs) - June 2007
  14. 89.138.231.164 (talk · contribs) - June 2007
  15. 89.139.195.205 (talk · contribs) - June 2007
  16. 89.139.242.38 (talk · contribs) - May 2007
  17. 217.132.141.231 (talk · contribs) - May 2007
  18. 89.138.215.232 (talk · contribs) - April 2007
  19. 89.138.116.157 (talk · contribs) - April 2007
  20. 217.132.234.44 (talk · contribs) - March 2007
  21. 89.138.166.212 (talk · contribs) - March 2007
  22. 85.250.173.2 (talk · contribs) - March 2007
  23. 89.0.159.106 (talk · contribs) - February 2007
  24. 89.1.146.35 (talk · contribs) - February 2007
  25. SandyBMW (talk · contribs) - January 2007
  26. 89.1.187.177 (talk · contribs) November 2006 - January 2007 (~ 13 edits)
  27. MikeJason (talk · contribs) November-December 2006 (~ 14 edits)
  28. Joshua1988 (talk · contribs) - September 2006 (~ 37 edits)
  29. 68.236.30.36 (talk · contribs) - September 2006 (Philadelphia)
  30. 89.1.187.215 (talk · contribs) August - November 2006 (~ 12 edits)
  31. Jerusalem21 (talk · contribs) - March 2006 (~ 14 edits) (Wrote first version of article.)

→ (Earlier report in Talk:Aaron Klein/Archive 1#Single purpose accounts 1.) — Athaenara ✉ 19:36, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Forwarded message

89.138.145.173 posted the following message (diff) on my user talk page:

message to Athaenara
Dear Athaenara:
Since you seem to be regulating the page Aaron KLein, may I ask that you please add the below text to the section titled 'controversy' as I think it is a significant and bio-worthy update.
Obama
In February, 2008, Klein first reported Senator Barack Obama, a frontrunner for the Democrat presidential nomination sat on the board of a nonprofit organization, the Woods Fund alongside William Ayres, who was a Weathermen leader and has written about his involvement with the group's bombings of the New York City Police headquarters in 1970, the Capitol in 1971 and the Pentagon in 1972. [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?pageId=57231]
Klein also reported while Obama served on the board the Woods Fund granted funding to an Arab group Klein said mourns the establishment of Israel as a "catastrophe" and supports intense immigration reform, including providing drivers licenses and education to illegal aliens. [8]
The co-founder of the Arab group in question, Columbia University professor Rashid Khalidi, also has held a fundraiser for Obama. Klein detailed what he said was a relationship between Obama and Khalidi, whom Klein labeled as a harsh critic of Israel who has made statements supportive of Palestinian terror and reportedly has worked on behalf of the Palestine Liberation Organization while it was involved in anti-Western terrorism and was labeled by the State Department as a terror group.
Klein's piece gained U.S. media attention, including in the Jewish media, and was also widely criticized by the liberal media as "the first major swift-boating" of Obama, referring to conservative-led attacks against Presidential candidate John Kerry during the 2004 presidential election. [9] [10] [11]
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.138.145.173 (talk) 23:25, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

This page is the central location for discussing improvements to the Aaron Klein article, so I forwarded it here. — Athaenara ✉ 23:43, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Update: Seven minutes later, Special:Contributions/Jerusalem21 added the identical text (diff), removing the {{pp-semi-protected}} page protection template (note, however, that removing the template has no effect on the actual protection status of the page). Three minutes after that, Jerusalem21 added an additional paragraph (diff) with the edit summary "(punctuation changes)". — Athaenara ✉ 01:46, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Wow

This article in its current state is absolute garbage. It reads as a total puff piece and was obviously heavily influenced by Klein himself and cronies/sockpuppets at WND. Doubtless if Klein were more important or a better journalist prominent Wikipedians would be all over this article for its blatant NPOV violations. Are we SERIOUSLY allowed to use the phrase "the liberal media" now? However, this is not Conservapedia and people (like myself) are going to actually come to Wikipedia expecting objective information about this guy. I don't want to start an edit war or a giant flame war but this article needs some degree of compromise, because in its current state it is basically acting as nothing more than a conduit for Klein's questionably notable "journalism." It is in pretty clear violation of WP:SOAP and WP:NPOV (as well as the policy on autobiography/subject-added content), and unless anyone who is NOT Aaron Klein or one of his sockpuppets has any objections, I am going to be bold and make some changes in a day or two. Iamblessed (talk) 20:04, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I encourage you to go ahead and propose any improvements to this article. If you use the Talk page to give us a general idea of the changes, that will put you in a good position should later controversies arise. (We may be able to point to a Talk page consensus, if such a consensus can be worked out). Since the article is semi-protected, it may be easier to defend it against promotional editing than before. (Last year a set of IPs was adding material that was promotional of Klein, hardly ever the same IP twice. See #Single purpose accounts above). If you do make some revisions and then it turns out that, once again, people affiliated with the subject come forward to slant the article content, a posting at the Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard remains possible. EdJohnston (talk) 20:52, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree that the article is in serious need of editing for neutral point of view policy compliance. A comparison of Talk:Aaron Klein/Archive 1 posts and the article history also shows that, while there once were several neutral editors helping out here, the number seemed to drop to a mere two in the past year. Another - more! - needed and welcome. — Athaenara ✉ 06:50, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Still garbage. I've seriously condensed the section on Klein's attacks on Obama to remove irrelevant asides that attempt to prove Klein's point of view, and that focus on Obama rather than Klein. That's considered a WP:COATRACK. There was a lot of unsourced stuff, and unencyclopedic tone as well as some paraphrasing running close to plagiarism. I note there's a lot of use of primary sources (i.e. referring to Klein's pieces, while summarizing what they say as evidence of Klein's opinions) which, given the low quality of prose, is not trustworthy. The citations are not in proper format either. It would take a while to go through each to clean them up, remove the unreliable sources, verify that each stands for what it's claimed to stand for, etc. If someone were watching at the time, this kind of stuff should be rejected in the first place when someone tries to add it without proper sourcing. Wikidemon (talk) 14:55, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
The effect of the coi spa army has been to give the article a marked "why the world thinks Aaron Klein is very, very, very important" tilt which is quite out of proportion to his actual notability.
More cleanup, please! — Athaenara ✉ 08:30, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
In fact, I would support semi-permanent full page protection, which would require the coi spas to request edits with the {{editprotected}} template. — Athaenara ✉ 08:44, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Criticism / Accusations of Plagiarism

Fellow Zionist Debbie Schlussel has accused Klein of plagiarism, among other things:

Aaron Klein Watch: WND's Plagiarist Rips Off Schlussel Again, Book Plagiarized Schlussel, Israeli Newspapers, Fabricated the Rest

--Kitrus (talk) 06:33, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

That piece also links WorldNetDebbie: Website, Its "Reporter" Aaron Klein Copy Schlussel Column Almost Word for Word in "Exclusive," Plus False Info From Sleazy Source. Given that Klein (Jerusalem21 and dozens of socks) typically uses WND and his own articles as sources, it might be appropriate to treat these as equally reliable sources. — Athaenara ✉ 12:22, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
(My sarcasm ("reliable" [not]) above may have been too subtle.) — Athaenara ✉ 03:16, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
My point: Klein considers himself a reliable source for his notability. Schlussel probably is a reliable source about the plagiarism. — Athaenara ✉ 03:23, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Maybe a sentence or two about this could be included in the article, if we could find a newspaper comment on Schlussel's allegations. One would think that, if this story is legit, some of the Israeli newspapers would have taken note of it. A Google search for 'Klein Schlussel plagiarism' gets 1440 hits, at least one of which offers some rebuttal. This offers a way to spend a relaxing afternoon slogging through neutral, pleasant, well-written blogs </sarcasm off> :-) EdJohnston (talk) 17:53, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Schlussel has little credibility. She has an easily verifiable history of accusing just about everyone who breathes of plagiarism. Her idea of plagiarism is if someone else writes about the same general topic as her. A brief browsing of her claim of plagiarism regarding Klein's article on the Nation of Islam and Obama already discredits her claim; nothing is copied word-for-word or even very similar except the quotes they both obtained from the same source, which would obviously be similar. Klein even credited Schlussel in his article and then linked to her original piece! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jerusalem21 (talk • contribs) 04:36, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

A good rebuttal of Schlussel's unfounded claims can be found here. [12]. The site also links at the bottom so other Schlussel claims of plagiarism, including Schlussel's own admission to stalking radio host Sean Hannity after she accused him, groundlessly, of plagiarism. The site also links to a Congressman who was stalked by Schlussel after she falsely claimed he plagiarized her. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.132.158.182 (talk) 04:53, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Schlussel's claims were entirely discredited and proven false - see [http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=89178] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.179.112.254 (talk) 12:42, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Coatrack

Mr. Klein is probably notable. If so the article should be about him. The fact that he has criticised President Obama could be mentioned. But a whole section, sourced by primary sources, should not be used to merely repeat the criticisms. Steve Dufour (talk) 01:57, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Entire coatrack removed (diff) and {{fact}} tag added for the unsupported claim that "In 2008, Klein gained additional attention for penning numerous investigative pieces critical of presidential candidate Barack Obama." (Underline added for emphasis.) — Athaenara ✉ 03:21, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Good work. :-) Steve Dufour (talk) 18:39, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Aaron Klein promotional editing

"Klein's Hamas interview became a dominant theme of the 2008 presidential elections". This is one of the new claims in the dramatically expanded article, now 30% longer thanks to the November 20 edits of Jerusalem21 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). We might surmise that the subject is once again editing his own article. I suggest that most of these November 20 edits may need to be rolled back, unless better sources for the new emphasis and claims can be provided. Wikipedia is not for advertising or promotion. The citation for the sentence about dominant theme is this Boston Globe article, which does not mention Aaron Klein. EdJohnston (talk) 05:24, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Aye, the subject, his editor/employer, or someone else with a vested interest. After more than two years of this, is it time for this article to have full protection until the COI SPAs understand that they can't puff this thing up without running into the NPOV policy? — Athaenara ✉ 06:00, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

What is wrong with the new Hamas interview section? It's not promotional. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.132.158.182 (talk) 16:27, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

What was the role of Aaron Klein in the 2008 American presidential election? References in American media that discuss the election campaign don't seem to mention Klein. EdJohnston (talk) 16:29, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

1) The media does mention him. Here is one article from The Nation, which was also reprinted on CBS.com http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080331/berman

2) The question with regard the Hamas interview is not Klein's role in the presidential debate, but the role of Hamas during the elections. The purported Hamas endorsement became a central theme of the president debate. Do a simply Google search under 'Hamas, Obama' or 'Ahmed Yousef, Obama'. And since Ahmed Yousef's infamous 'endorsement' of Obama came during an exclusive interview with Aaron Klein, Klein's role in the Hamas affair was important. http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2008/04/020315.php; http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=61631; Therefore, a simple mention of the Hamas affair and Klein's role is relevant to the Wiki page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jerusalem21 (talk • contribs) 12:17, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Citations needed in Student Career section

I added a citation needed tag to the claim about the high school newspaper. This is likely to be unverifiable, as, without original research, are the facts that Klein attended Torah Academy or Penn. (For what it's worth, I happen to have attended the same high school, two years behind Klein, and I don't remember a monthly newspaper, but maybe it existed before my time.) Even if this information could be sourced, it's hard to see how any of it is notable, until we get to the newspaper confiscations at YU. MOE37x3 (talk) 16:09, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

response -- the info about Klein's student career and attendance at Penn was taken from the NY Times - see [13] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.81.45.32 (talk) 18:28, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

OK, the Penn part is sourced, but the Torah Academy part isn't. I'll delete the latter. MOE37x3 (talk) 16:25, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
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