Talk:Adam's ale

Note at creation and other comments

Didn't make the cut

A Hebrew fable says that Noah's wine vines were fertilized by a sheep, ape, lion, and a sow. Thereafter wine-drinkers started to share some of the undesirable traits associate with these animals- e.g. being mischievous, filthy, and fierce (discrediting the grape).

• Similar info  Added to Noah's wine. Would no longer be appropriate for this article, as it no longer covers this topic.—Godsy^(TALK_CONT) 23:19, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

The term gained popularity during the emergence of teetotalism in the 1830's, which was fueled in part by Dr. Benjamin Rush's findings in 1789 on the effects of alcohol consumption on the human body. In contrast, the "The demon drink" was a metaphor referring to alchohol, frequently used by supporters of the Temperance Movement.</ref>

• Some info here that didn't make it through my pruning, copyediting, and rewriting before I published this in the article namespace for various reasons (e.g. poor sourcing, and perhaps not belonging in this particular article). Posting it here in case any of it can be of used in the future (i.e. to improve the article).—Godsy^(TALK_CONT) 05:32, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Comments

• Leaving citations in the lead (WP:CITELEAD), as a variation of this term has been nominated for deletion as a redirect in the past— Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2015 June 28#Adam's wine.—Godsy^(TALK_CONT) 03:49, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

• Removing most of them for now. See WP:OVERCITE.—Godsy^(TALK_CONT) 07:05, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

• Some more references (raw), much better than the former, that may be good additions along with info they provide:
  • https://books.google.com/books?id=ZbQEAAAAQAAJ
  • https://books.google.com/books?id=1b9VAAAAcAAJ
  • https://books.google.com/books?id=gfxIAAAAcAAJ
  • https://books.google.com/books?id=cDhIAQAAMAAJ  Added—Godsy^(TALK_CONT) 07:05, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
  • https://books.google.com/books?id=p5DYAAAAMAAJ

(search for Adam's ale)

• decent Reference finder— Google Books Ngram Viewer

—Godsy^(TALK_CONT) 04:01, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

A question of tense

Godsy I am puzzled by this edit [1] in which you change the verb back to the past tense after I had changed it to present perfect tense. The addition of "early" to "21st century" is not enough to make the past tense correct. It is too early in the 21st century to say that a trend begun in, or just before the beginning of, the 21st century has ended. Present perfect tense suggests a gradual change that may not yet have ended. CorinneSD (talk) 21:43, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

@CorinneSD: I was working toward a wording that wouldn't become outdated. I realize this is an online encyclopedia that will constantly be updated, but I always like to phrase things in a way that won't need to be if possible. I see your point however, that the trend is on going. Any suggestions? Feel free to change it back to the "has" wording, if there isn't a better way. Thank you very much for the copyedit and this added input, I appreciate it very much. Regards,—Godsy^(TALK_CONT) 22:59, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

@Godsy: Hmm. I see. Well, you could look at it this way: unless the trend changes direction, the trend will continue as the years go by. A verb in present perfect tense such as "has declined" will continue to be appropriate for many years until the point when one can say the phrase has completely disappeared from the language. So, some time in the mid- or late 21st century, an editor familiar with the phrase and the then-current usage, realizing that the phrase is no longer used, will come along and change the verb to past tense. As I read articles, I check things like this. When I see a present perfect verb for something that happened ten to fifteen years ago and I know it is a completed event, I change the tense of the verb to past tense, and I think there are other editors who notice things like this.

One possibility is to remove "in the early 21st century":

• In common use until the mid- to late 20th century, usage of the phrase has declined.

You could add "in recent years":

• In common use until the mid- to late 20th century, usage of the phrase has declined in recent years.

Another possibility is to use the noun instead of the verb (although usually the verb form is usually preferable):

• In common use until the mid- to late 20th century, usage of the phrase has seen a decline in recent years.

(Of course even this version has a verb in present perfect tense: "has seen".) So, what do you think? CorinneSD (talk) 01:20, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

@CorinneSD: I think I'll go with the first option, "In common use until the mid- to late 20th century, usage of the phrase has declined." I try to avoid recent as well (WP:RELTIME). If you ever need a copyedit or a second set of eyes on something, though my command of grammar isn't nearly as good as yours seems to be, don't hesitate to leave a request on my talk page. Thanks again,—Godsy^(TALK_CONT) 01:28, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Godsy Thanks! I'll certainly keep that in mind. CorinneSD (talk) 01:32, 20 July 2015 (UTC)