Talk:Adele Spitzeder/GA1

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GA Review[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Reviewer: Spintendo (talk · contribs) 14:12, 9 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]


It will be my pleasure to begin this review. If I may say so, this topic was found to have a dearth of English language sources available (beyond the good ones provided so far), so the fact that this article exists and with the good level of information appended to it, owes a debt of gratitude to the efforts of the nominator and editors at the German Wikipedia who edited the article there. The nominator, who is fluent in German and English, was able to incorporate these important German language sources into English so well, that the article in no way appears as if it has been translated into English from another language, as many articles with poorer translation-related efforts show.

Let's take this section by section, with the end results being tabulated in the table I've placed below.  Spintendo  14:12, 9 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking the time to review this. I'll address stuff asap but it might take a day or two because I have to catch up on work after my vacation. Regards SoWhy 15:02, 9 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
There's no hurry. Please take as much time as you need to reply.  Spintendo  16:07, 9 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Spintendo: I think I addressed everything and left some comments below. Regards SoWhy 16:01, 10 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Lead section[edit]

  • "She ran the bank out of her house and never married. She maintained the persona of a pious Christian woman who helped the poor, although she was documented as carrying on more than one lesbian relationship." This phrasing, with the word "although", has the effect of implying in Wikipedia's voice that the subject's lesbianism runs counter to a Christian lifestyle. Philosophical arguments aside, I think it would be better to place the information in the first sentence, which mentions her never marrying. On its own, that sentence does not mesh well "She ran the bank out of her house and never married", as not marrying does not seem to be related to running a bank out of her house. My suggestion would be "In her personal life she never married, but was documented to have been in more than one lesbian relationship. Outwardly, she projected the persona of a pious Christian woman who helped the poor, running her bank out of her own house."
    •  Major rephrasing. SoWhy 16:01, 10 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Her competitors were real banks, and authorities eventually brought her to trial" suggested to become "Her competitors were more established banks, and authorities eventually brought her to trial with their help", as I believe that these established banks were instrumental in bringing her to trial as the article states.
    •  Rephrased. SoWhy 16:01, 10 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Early life[edit]

  • "Bavaria's King Ludwig I was a fan of the Spitzeders and agreed to pay them 6.000 Gulden yearly" - can we expand on this point? As worded, it leaves open the reasoning for why the king supported the Spitzeders. The source states "Der sonst so sparsame bayerische König Ludwig I. hatte offensichtlich einen Narren an der Familie Spitzeder gefressen, denn erst stimmte er dem jährlichen Spitzengehalt des Sängerpaares von 6.000 Gulden zu, und nach dem plötzlichen Tod des Vaters half er der jungen Witwe, indem er die Ausbildung der Kinder finanzierte." In this case I will need the assistance of SoWhy for the translation, the Google software translation does not do it justice, particularly the word "gefressen" which translates as 'eaten' but I suspect has a different meaning (the Google translation comically suggests that the King ate the Spitzeders).
    • @Spintendo: The expression is "einen Narren gefressen", which can roughly be translated as "to be crazy about someone" (see LEO). I don't think "Ludwig I was crazy about them" sounds right though... Regards SoWhy 15:01, 9 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That makes more sense. If this describes the King being a fan of their music, maybe that works better? Or was this a case of infatuation?  Spintendo  16:15, 9 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Not really a fan of the music but themselves. I think infatuation is a good word here. How does it look now? SoWhy 16:01, 10 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and then a convent school" - convent schools are not common in the English language - these are usually referred to simply as convents unless this was a school run by the convent, in which case the phrasing is perfectly fine.
    • As I understand it, a convent is a place where nuns live and work. In this case, the German phrase "klösterliches Internat" can probably best be translated as "boarding school run by a convent". I'll change it accordingly. Regards SoWhy 15:01, 9 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
If it was a convent-run school, then it's fine as is.  Spintendo  16:15, 9 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • " The money, however, was not sufficient to pay for her lifestyle; she lived in hotels and inns with her girlfriend and six dogs." should be "The money, however, was not sufficient to pay for a lifestyle of living in hotels and inns with her girlfriend and six dogs."

Spitzedersche Privatbank[edit]

  • "Spitzeder also inserted an advertisement into the city's major newspaper, the Münchner Neueste Nachrichten, requesting to borrow 150 Gulden with the promise of 10 percent interest after two months" was this request made of the public? It seems unusual to post requests for money in a newspaper. Was it that she was soliciting investments? that would make more sense.
    • You can check the Harper's Weekly source which has the full wording (translated). It literally says "A respectable lady desires to borrow ...". Regards SoWhy 16:01, 10 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Growth of business[edit]

  • "Spitzeder's banking services quickly became the talk of the town in Munich's poor communities" should be "in Munich's poorer communities" unless there was only one fixed geographical poor community.
  • "She continued to pay interest in cash, which was not common, and thus led to some word-of-mouth advertising" should be "She continued to pay interest in cash, which was not common, leading to favorable word-of-mouth advertising".
  • "Because her customer base consisting mostly of workers from the northern outskirts of Munich, her bank was also called "Dachauer Bank". should be "Because her customer base consisted mostly of workers from the northern outskirts of Munich, her bank was also called 'Dachauer Bank'". (This may have resulted from the use of the German auch, which in certain translations results in the placement of the word also, when in the English phrasing that word may not be necessary. With regards to the name of the bank, I'm curious what "Dachauer" translates to — is that a term for the suburbs of Munich?)
    •  rephrased. It's the name of the town were most came from. Regards SoWhy 16:01, 10 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Soon after, she began employing more than 40 people and rented additional rooms in the hotel in which she was staying." should be "Soon after, she began employing more than 40 people, requiring her to rent additional rooms in the hotel in which she was staying."
  • "In early 1871, Spitzeder survived the first public attempts to discredit her because the government failed to find a legal reason to stop Spitzeder, who was fulfilling her obligations to her customers as promised." should be "In early 1871, Spitzeder survived the first public attempts to discredit her, as the government failed to find a legal reason to stop Spitzeder, who was fulfilling her obligations to her customers as promised."
  • "While the city of Munich now taxed her as a "Bankier 2. Klasse" ("second class banker"), she successfully avoided calls to be entered into the companies' register, which would have led to closer scrutiny." should be "While the city of Munich began taxing her as a "Bankier 2. Klasse" ("second class banker"), she successfully avoided calls to be entered into the companies' register, which would have led to closer scrutiny."
  • "Her employees, all without training in accounting, regularly took money and the accounting was restricted to recording the names of depositors and the amounts they paid in, often only signed with "XXX" by her illiterate customers." should be "Her employees, all without training in accounting, regularly took money, with the accounting being restricted to recording the names of depositors and the amounts they paid in, often only signed with "XXX" by her non-literate customers." This final point, about literacy, should be delineated. If the customers had access to becoming literate but chose not to because their stations in life did not require literacy, they would be considered non-literate. If they grew up with a requirement for literacy but somehow fell through the cracks (so to speak) then they would be considered "illiterate". (But if this is the specific term that the source uses, we can leave it as is.)
  • "In October 1871, the proprietor of the hotel in which she was living and working was no longer willing to tolerate the customer traffic." should be "By October 1871, the proprietor of the hotel in which she was living and working was no longer willing to tolerate the customer traffic.
  • "Spitzeder moved into a house on Schönfeld Street No. 9 in one of Munich's best areas." should be "Spitzeder moved into the house at No. 9 Schönfeld Street in one of Munich's most affluent areas.
  • "In 1871, she received 50,000 to 60,000 Gulden each day, although she had lowered the return paid to 8% per month." should be "By 1871 she was receiving 50,000 to 60,000 Gulden each day, although she lowered her returns paid to 8% per month."
  • "Despite the size of her business, the bank had no premises of its own and all business was done in Spitzeder's hotel and later her house." should be "Despite the size of her business, the bank had no premises of its own and all business was done first out of Spitzeder's hotel rooms and later her house." Also this should clarify, was it Spitzeder's hotel room or out of the hotel as a whole. (This is already clarified in an earlier sentence, that it was multiple rooms.)

Public image, bankruptcy and prison sections[edit]

No issues.

Personal life[edit]

  • "Despite her demonstrative Christian demeanor, she tended to have an entourage composed mostly of young, attractive women." Again with this phrasing, it seems to imply in Wikipedia's voice that a person of Christian demeanor should not have female friends. I'm thinking perhaps that the first half could be omitted, and just mention her entourage of women. I undertand that at the time, the differences between expressed Christian values and Ms. Spitzeder's sexuality would have provided for more of a contrast, according to local observers. But perhaps it could be worded to explain this better as a view that existed at that time, as surely this same view has been moderated in more modern times. What are your ideas on this?
    •  Rephrased. How is it now? SoWhy 16:01, 10 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "After her release from prison, Spitzeder went abroad because no one in Germany wanted to hire her as an actor" can be "After her release from prison, Spitzeder went abroad, as no one in Germany wanted to hire her as an actor." This could be a good place to mention the use of actor versus actress — there have been multiple discussions about the use of one term over another, including Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_118#Actor_vs_Actress_terminology. Unfortunately none of the discussions I could find were resolved with any conclusion. As my preferences would be irrelevant here, I'm happy with leaving it the way it is, with actor being used.
    •  Done. The change from actress to actor was made by the editor doing a GOCE copyedit. I don't have a preference either way. SoWhy 16:01, 10 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Her family posthumously changed her name to Adele Schmid" - I'm wondering if this might go in the infobox under aliases? Although if that parameter is meant primarily for names used while living, it wouldn't need to be placed there, since this name was posthumous.
    • That was my thinking too. Alias implies use by the person. SoWhy 16:01, 10 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Works about Spitzeder[edit]

No issues.

Literature[edit]

Since they didnt have ISBN's, I found OCLC's for a few of these items:

PLAYS AND NOVELS

  • Adele Spitzeder Marionettenspiel um einen Münchner Finanzskandal im Jahre 1873 ; wortgetreue Wiedergabe einer alten Handschrift (in German). Puppentheatermuseum. 1981. OCLC 75843921.
  • Albrecht-Weinberger, Karl (1956). Adele Spitzeder; Roman einer seltsamen Frau (in German). Maindruck. OCLC 36066656.
  • Rehn, Heidi (2009). Tod im Englischen Garten: historischer Kriminalroman (in German). Köln: Emons Verlag. ISBN 9783897055070. OCLC 682116597.
    •  used, thanks for finding them! Regards SoWhy 16:01, 10 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Copyvio check[edit]

No issues.

Checklinks[edit]

No issues.

Closing comments[edit]

Thank you to the nominator for all their assistance!  Spintendo  15:54, 11 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review table[edit]

Rate Attribute Review Comment
1. Well-written:
1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct. Prose is well written, due mostly to the excellent translation of the nominating editor with the assistance of local editors.
1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation. All WP:MOS guidelines have been followed.
2. Verifiable with no original research:
2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline. The article uses Citation Style 1 in accordance with that style's rules.
2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose). Proper use of the {{rp}} template where it was necessary. All links in the references found to be in working order. A search of English-based databases (ProQuest, EBSCO, Gale & Weslaw) showed a distinct lack of English language sources available on the subject. Many more sources were available from German language references (and used here) which all appear to meet the requirements for reliable sources both on German Wikipedia (de:WP:BLG) and its English counterpart (WP:RS).
2c. it contains no original research. The article contains research, but that research has been done by writers and banking industry historians, and thus, does not meet the definition of original research
3. Broad in its coverage:
3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic. Main aspects addressed.
3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style). The prose stays on topic.
4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each. Although the subject would be considered a criminal, the subject matter is approached fairly and with a neutral point of view.
5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute. Article is stable.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content. All images appear to be in the public domain or have been added through the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 4.0 International license.
6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions. All media used are relevant to the topic and have suitable captions.
7. Overall assessment. For the reasons listed above, it is this reviewer's opinion that the article meets all GA status requirements.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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