From Talk:Ali/Archive1[edit]

Titles[edit]

Sunni's accepts the titles of Amir-ul-Momineen given to the 'Khalifa-ur-Rashidin'. They also accepts that Ali was 'Lion of God' + Abu Turab: from suuni website: The Prophet (peace be on him) loved Ali dearly and called him by many fond names. Once the Prophet found him sleeping in the dust. He brushed off Ali's clothes and said fondly, "Wake up, Abu Turab (Father of Dust)." The Prophet also gave him the title of 'Asadullah' ('Lion of God'). ([www.muslimaccess.com/sunnah/sahabah/Ali.htm])

Leader of the Faithful really shouldn't be in the list, as it was born by all the caliphs. In fact, it was used in preference to caliph until the Umayyads, or so I gather. The Abu Turab story is also found in Ibn Ishaq, but with a different emphasis -- Muhammad is supposed to have said that when he saw Ali with dust in his hair, he knew he'd been quarreling with Fatima, and putting dust on his head to show his repentance. The Lion of God title is used by Sunnis, that's a good cite -- but what about the other, untranslated titles? They should really be translated and cited if Sunni. I strongly suspect that there are titles that the Shi'a use that the Sunni don't, but I'm not sure. Zora 21:48, 20 July

2005 (UTC)

AladdinSE removed As-Sadique from the titles saying the title is associated with the 1st caliph. If the title is used by some muslims for the 1st caliph, it does not meen that no else had the title.

We know that people that had accompanied Mohammad to 'Mubahila' where all sidique, as only people who never lied accompanied him. Plus i dont think there will be any sunni who would say that any of the 4 rightly guided caliphs were not sadique. Im again adding the title.--Khalid! 12:30, 28 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Just because they were all honest does not mean they were nicknamed As Siddique; I've heard of Abu Bakr being referred to as Abu Bakr As Siddique but never heard of Ali As Siddique , or anyone else for that matter. --GNU4Eva 12:54, 28 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

That's correct. I've never heard of Ali As-Sadique either. Even if it was used as a minor title, when it is so famously and widely associated with Abu Bakr, it ought not to be included here. Merely removing the title does not in any way mean that we are implying the fourth Caliph was not truthful. --AladdinSE 19:27, July 29, 2005 (UTC)

Furthermore, when Striver put back the As-Siddiq title for Ali, he remarks, "In my view, Abu Bakr was from from that..." It's not your view that matters; WP should not be used as a message board forum but rather to report the facts. As-Siddiq is a nickname that is associated with Abu Bakr, and no one else. Don't confuse nicknames with personality traits -- Ali was siddiq too. --GNU4Eva 14:22, 30 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure that "nickname" really captures the phenomenon. Various Muslim editors have been adding "titles" to various biographical articles, notably Muhammad and Ali. I think this is more the impulse towards veneration. If God cannot be depicted, but must be known by the canonical 99 names, then Muhammad and Ali are also venerated with lists of official titles. Zora 18:07, 30 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Why dont you lot understand? If the title is commonly used with Abu Bakr, it does not mean that no1 else could have that title. The title of Amir-ul-Momineen is commonly used with Ali but that does not mean that none of the other caliphs could use the title. Again gonna add the title.

--Khalid! 18:25, 30 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Amir Al Mumineen is a position, literally the leader of the faithful (starting from Umar). Al Siddiq is not a position, it was a title given to Abu Bakr. Check out the following google searches [1] [2].

Actually let me be even more obvious, with the following google searches:

* "ali al siddiq" 1 Result

* "abu bakr al siddiq" 5050 Results

* "ali as siddiq" 4 Results

* "abu bakr as siddiq" 8190 Results

* "ali As-Sadiq" 4 Results (As-Sadique as spelt in the article gets 0 results)

* "Abu Bakr as-Sadiq" 65 Results (As-Sadiq gets one result).

--GNU4Eva 19:26, 30 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

That still does not mean that he cant have the title, anywayz i'll ad this title to the Shia titles.--Khalid! 18:49, 31 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

still inaccurate, but your stubborness is to be admired... incidentally, when we say Titles, are we referring to Titles and names he possessed during his lifetime, or titles given to him later on? --GNU4Eva 19:06, 31 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

In Mu'awiya's dam inscription he describes himself (or is described) as ABDULLAH Mu'awiya EMIR (of) THE FAITHFUL. Ali left no inscriptions (or coins) so we don't know how he wanted to be described. Just like Mu'awiya would be a sensible guess. But it appears there are NO literary sources supporting this idea. But there are none describing Mu'awiya that way either. I think we have to conclude that we don't know what Ali would have wanted to be called. Commander of the Faithful seems to be the least tendentious choice. Kleinecke 23:51, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]